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Tags donald trump , Hunter Biden , joe biden , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies , US-Ukraine relations

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Old 10th October 2019, 10:28 AM   #1641
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Reframing the context so that Trump won some popular votes is cute and all,
It's not a reframing, it's the correct description of what actually happens.

Quote:
but it doesn't show that the American people have a direct path for removing Trump.
That isn't an argument I'm involved in, so no worries there.

Quote:
You just merely restated that the electoral college matters more than the popular vote, but with a spin, which was my point.
My bad. I thought your point was that Republicans think that the popular vote doesn't matter at all. If you agree with me that the popular vote does matter, but isn't the only thing that matters, then good talk! I'll let you get back to your conversation with Zig about the direct path stuff.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:31 AM   #1642
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If the information put forth from an investigation is fake, that's a problem. But that hasn't happened. Calling the investigation fake before you even know really anything about it is not an honest approach.
I don't know if the irony of this post is nourishing or poisonous at this point.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:32 AM   #1643
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that Ukraine was investigating Burisma Holdings months before Trump's call, I'm not sure how Trump managed to coerce them to do it. Does he have a time machine we don't know about?
Trump asked Ukraine to investigate Biden's son, not a company.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:32 AM   #1644
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Reframing the context so that Trump won some popular votes is cute and all, but it doesn't show that the American people have a direct path for removing Trump. You just merely restated that the electoral college matters more than the popular vote, but with a spin, which was my point.
Of course the election is a direct path to removing Trump. It may not be a direct vote, but it's obviously a direct path, and claiming otherwise is playing stupid word games. If enough people vote against him, he will lose the election. If he loses the election, he will leave office the following January. That's pretty direct. Certainly much more direct than impeachment.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:33 AM   #1645
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Where do you think Steele got his Russian info? And are you under the impression that Clinton was the only person to do anything with Steele's dodgy dosier?

The irony of people arguing against informing the public is also not lost on me.
How dare those who call Trump out for extortion! He's just a good deed doer who is generous with his complements and concerns. ("Nice place you got...") Bravo for his efforts to inform the public on these pressing factual matters.

Oh yeah, never mind that Manafort guy who's the poster child for Ukranian corruption. He was just a coffee boy for a few days.

"Inform the public". What a sorry joke.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:36 AM   #1646
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
The very election Trump is using the powers of the presidency to corrupt for his own advantage? That election? If nothing else, an impeachment process will help voters make a more informed choice. I realize that's not something you want. In the case of Nixon, the more people knew, the less they supported him; it was the opposite for Bill Clinton.
I always laugh when people use the backlash the Republicans suffered for their impeachment of Bill Clinton to a possible impeachment of Donald Trump. If all the Democrats had on Donald Trump was an affair or lying about an affair and the Dems tried to impeach Trump for that then they might have a reasonable comparison. If this was all about Stormy Daniels there probably would be a backlash. I think there is a dozen legitimate reasons to impeach Trump, but most of them are difficult for the average Joe to understand. What happened with Ukraine is incredibly easy for the public to understand.

It's almost like Trump has been trying get impeached this entire time and finally exasperated, he says, let me make it easy for you.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:40 AM   #1647
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course the election is a direct path to removing Trump. It may not be a direct vote, but it's obviously a direct path, and claiming otherwise is playing stupid word games. If enough people vote against him, he will lose the election. If he loses the election, he will leave office the following January. That's pretty direct. Certainly much more direct than impeachment.
I disagree. It's less direct than impeachment. The people are still working through representatives, except congresspeople are directly elected instead of that weird system the EC uses.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:41 AM   #1648
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And why was I talking about that subject to begin with?
You can't possibly be serious.

Are you saying now that if you make a post reponding to another person, that I can't just respond to your points in that post without having to somehow address that other person's points into my discussion with you?

That's pretty damned close to Bobbing at this point.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:44 AM   #1649
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that Ukraine was investigating Burisma Holdings months before Trump's call, I'm not sure how Trump managed to coerce them to do it. Does he have a time machine we don't know about?
No sale for several reasons.

(1) The call was a culmination of an extended effort
(2) The source, an unabashed Trump toadie
(3) Reference to open source, but where's the open source?
(4) Why in Odin's name did so many people engage in such a sketchy project over such an extended period if it was already a done deal? For a lark?
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:46 AM   #1650
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Drawing the line at breaking the law can be principled. It can also be arbitrary.
And this is ALSO pretty damned close to Bobbing the thread.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:48 AM   #1651
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Where do you think Steele got his Russian info? And are you under the impression that Clinton was the only person to do anything with Steele's dodgy dosier?
Dodgy? This is the second time I ask, but what part of the dossier turned out to be untrue, except the obvious unproven accusation of Russian hooker urine party?
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:48 AM   #1652
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
(4) Why in Odin's name did so many people engage in such a sketchy project over such an extended period if it was already a done deal? For a lark?
It's like an anonymous donation to a charity. You see, Donald Trump is notoriously averse to the spotlight, and as such-
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:51 AM   #1653
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not a reframing, it's the correct description of what actually happens.
And that's what I called Bobbing. It's technically correct in some way, but it ignores the context and the point of the discussion in order to score some sort of rhetorical win rather than bring the conversation forward.

In this case, the question is whether the EC matters more than the general popular vote. Breaking the EC down into smaller, popular-ish votes has nothing to do with that, but as Joe would say at least you were technically correct, which is of course the best kind of correct.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:51 AM   #1654
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's almost like Trump has been trying get impeached this entire time and finally exasperated, he says, let me make it easy for you.
THIS!!! It would explain so much ...
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:54 AM   #1655
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Dodgy? This is the second time I ask, but what part of the dossier turned out to be untrue, except the obvious unproven accusation of Russian hooker urine party?
Actually, if you look in the Mueller report, Hope Hicks spend a day talking about "tapes from Russia" not coming out.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:56 AM   #1656
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Dodgy? This is the second time I ask, but what part of the dossier turned out to be untrue, except the obvious unproven accusation of Russian hooker urine party?
Cohen's alleged visit to Prague.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:08 AM   #1657
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that Ukraine was investigating Burisma Holdings months before Trump's call, I'm not sure how Trump managed to coerce them to do it. Does he have a time machine we don't know about?
That Solomon guy the Fox report defers to on this is beyond dubious as a source. He's sketchy enough to where when he writes "reporting" type articles for the Hill, they categorize it as "opinion".

Either way, the NABU tidying up loose ends (or whatever) is nowhere near the level of investigation involved when the POTUS himself tells the President of Ukraine (POU) "I would like you to do us a favor, though" in response to the POU saying he's ready to get weapons from the US.

If you think that's an even remotely convincing "gotcha'" out of the solicitation of contributions from foreign national ban, you're...engaging in exceedingly motivated reasoning.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:10 AM   #1658
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Cohen's alleged visit to Prague.
The actual information was that Cohen's phone got pinged in Prague..

From the raid on his office we know that he had over a dozen of phones he would lend out.

So while it seems like he himself wasn't in Prague, all evidence points to one of his unindicted co-conspiritors being there.

We should ask Individual-1 under oath about it.

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Old 10th October 2019, 11:11 AM   #1659
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Quote:
use the lever of US foreign policy to coerce a foreign country to dig up dirt on a political opponent.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Indeed. It's vitally important that you get foreign countries to dig up dirt on a political opponent because they want to, like Hillary did.
Huh?

I need you to be explicit in what you're trying to argue here.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:14 AM   #1660
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Indeed. It's vitally important that you get foreign countries to dig up dirt on a political opponent because they want to, like Hillary did.
That's President Hillary Clinton for you!
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:15 AM   #1661
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Cohen's alleged visit to Prague.
That's one.

But there wasn't anything dodgy about the report. It was always meant to be raw Intelligence.

Other than Cohen probably not going to Prague and the ridiculous golden showers party, the essence of the report has been confirmed to be true.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:16 AM   #1662
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And this is ALSO pretty damned close to Bobbing the thread.
No. There are serious, principled arguments for obeying the law. I have made such arguments from time to time, based on my principles, which I try to use to guide my choices and actions. There are also serious, principled arguments for breaking the law, at least in certain situations. I have made such arguments as well, based on my principles.

In general, I think that rule of law is important, and that obedience to the law and compliance with due process of law is a very important part of maintaining a healthy society. However, I think that in some cases, there are moral principles that override the value of rule of law and due process. In some cases, civil disobedience is the most principled course of action. If I thought civil disobedience were warranted, I'd want to make a principled, rational argument in favor of it.

There are also arbitrary, irrational arguments for obeying or breaking the law. These are, in my opinion, the kinds of arguments that Craig4 is making. The "principle" he's appealed to, that "real Americans" don't break the law to oppose the government, is laughably and obviously untrue. This isn't a principled argument.

Yitzak Rabin's assassins were able to make a principled argument for their decision to engage in extreme disobedience. Sirhan Sirhan was not.

Dr King was able to make a principled argument for breaking the law in order to oppose an unjust government. Craig4 has so far not made a principled argument for *not* breaking the law to oppose an unjust government. Even though it seems to me that, given what he appears to believe, he has no less authority than Dr King on his side, if he were to advocate civil disobedience and other lawbreaking in opposition to the Trump administration. Dr King, the Underground Railroad, and even the founders themselves.

(The founders being another group who were able to make a principled argument about lawbreaking, when they chose to rebel against their lawful government.)

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Old 10th October 2019, 11:21 AM   #1663
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And that's what I called Bobbing. It's technically correct in some way, but it ignores the context and the point of the discussion in order to score some sort of rhetorical win rather than bring the conversation forward.

In this case, the question is whether the EC matters more than the general popular vote. Breaking the EC down into smaller, popular-ish votes has nothing to do with that, but as Joe would say at least you were technically correct, which is of course the best kind of correct.
My position since the "popular vote" meme first emerged, is that it's a reframing of how US elections actually work, intended to invalidate Trump literally winning a presidential election. I push back on the meme not out of some slavish devotion to technical correctness or doctrinaire principle, but because I think it's an important distinction that actually matters to how we understand, debate, and propose to change our system of government.

I push back not because it contradicts some private, personal, pointless standard of "correctness", but because I think it actually matters to us as citizens, and as a nation, to get this right. Contrast this with someone else, who might readily agree that their correctness does not matter at all, not even to themselves.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:52 AM   #1664
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My position since the "popular vote" meme first emerged, is that it's a reframing of how US elections actually work, intended to invalidate Trump literally winning a presidential election. I push back on the meme not out of some slavish devotion to technical correctness or doctrinaire principle, but because I think it's an important distinction that actually matters to how we understand, debate, and propose to change our system of government.

I push back not because it contradicts some private, personal, pointless standard of "correctness", but because I think it actually matters to us as citizens, and as a nation, to get this right. Contrast this with someone else, who might readily agree that their correctness does not matter at all, not even to themselves.

Excuse me? Doing a double take! I don't buy what you're selling.

Let's get real. Trump was selected President because of the rules. He was NOT elected because the majority of electorate cast their vote for him. It was because of rules created in 1789 that gave voters in rural states more power than in urban states. And it is because they also made it too difficult to change those rules.
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Old 10th October 2019, 12:05 PM   #1665
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Cohen's alleged visit to Prague.
It's dodgy alright, that we don't know why Mueller didn't address the key evidence of Cohen's cell phone pinging near Prague.

McClatchy: Cell signal puts Cohen outside Prague around time of purported Russian meeting
Quote:
[EDITOR’S NOTE: Robert Mueller’s report to the attorney general states that Mr. Cohen was not in Prague. It is silent on whether the investigation received evidence that Mr. Cohen’s phone pinged in or near Prague, as McClatchy reported.

Linked here is a story on the Mueller probe’s finding related to Mr. Cohen.]

A mobile phone traced to President Donald Trump’s former lawyer and “fixer” Michael Cohen briefly sent signals ricocheting off cell towers in the Prague area in late summer 2016, at the height of the presidential campaign, leaving an electronic record to support claims that Cohen met secretly there with Russian officials, four people with knowledge of the matter say.

During the same period of late August or early September, electronic eavesdropping by an Eastern European intelligence agency picked up a conversation among Russians, one of whom remarked that Cohen was in Prague, two people familiar with the incident said. ...

The new information regarding the recovery of Cohen’s cell phone location doesn’t explain why he was apparently there or who he was meeting with, if anyone. But it adds to evidence that Cohen was in or near Prague around the time of the supposed meeting.

Both of the newly surfaced foreign electronic intelligence intercepts were shared with Special Counsel Robert Mueller, people familiar with the matter said. ...

McClatchy reported in April 2018 that Mueller had obtained evidence Cohen traveled to Prague from Germany in late August or early September of 2016, but it could not be learned how that information was gleaned.

Cohen tweeted a denial hours after this story was published.
Unclear if true but a verrrrrry long way from dodgy.
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Old 10th October 2019, 12:16 PM   #1666
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The actual information was that Cohen's phone got pinged in Prague..

From the raid on his office we know that he had over a dozen of phones he would lend out.

So while it seems like he himself wasn't in Prague, all evidence points to one of his unindicted co-conspiritors being there.

We should ask Individual-1 under oath about it.
Or it could have been Cohen, himself.

Business Insider, Mar 2019: One of the Steele dossier's biggest allegations about Russian hacking is back in the spotlight after a new Czech media report
Quote:
According to the dossier, Cohen made the trip for two reasons:

To contain fallout resulting from damaging revelations about former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort's and former Trump campaign aide Carter Page's Russia ties.
To meet with Russian government officials, Romanian hackers, and others to discuss "how deniable cash payments were to be made to hackers in Europe who had worked under Kremlin direction against the Clinton campaign," and to do so in a way that could not be "fully established or proven."
This week, the Czech magazine, Respekt, published a lengthy investigative piece that said the FSB, Russia's main counterintelligence agency, was running two hacking networks posing as private IT firms based in Prague several years ago.

The group conducting the hacking operation reportedly did so using computers registered to the companies that had been transported within the Czech Republic by vehicles under Russian diplomatic cover.

According to Respekt, Czech intelligence services shut down the two networks in 2018.
Bottom line once again, the dossier was not dodgy.
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Old 10th October 2019, 12:22 PM   #1667
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Or it could have been Cohen, himself.
You think Cohen managed to make the trip in secret, without the US government knowing he left the country and came back around those dates? And without leaving any paper trail they could follow?

You think he's that competent?
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Old 10th October 2019, 12:39 PM   #1668
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
All politics is local. And the fact that you didn't care about anything else doesn't mean nobody else cared about anything else.

And if you're so sure the American public has turned against Trump, then what are you worried about? Trump will get voted out, and that will be that. No need to go through a divisive impeachment process.

Worried? I've been saying for some time now that Trump has virtually no chance of re-election. But on the other hand, I'm not too concerned that Republicans dismiss the "blue wave" and the current polls -- all the better, really.

And if you still don't understand why Trump must be held accountable for his abuses of power, regardless, then I don't think I can help you with that. If we don't do anything about it, allowing this level of corruption to become "normal", and someday end up with a Democrat who thinks he's above the law, I'm 100% certain you'll understand it perfectly -- just a little too late.

(ETA: Rereading my post, I see that I fell into the pattern of "he's above the law." Actually, I have a bet on predictit.org that our next president will be a woman.)

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Old 10th October 2019, 01:03 PM   #1669
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You think Cohen managed to make the trip in secret, without the US government knowing he left the country and came back around those dates? And without leaving any paper trail they could follow?

You think he's that competent?
Not really sure why you think it would require some great criminal mastermind to travel to Prague. The Czech republic is part of the EU, and people can travel pretty freely between countries there. I'm pretty sure even the dumbest criminal could figure out how to get from one country to another once they're in Europe. No need to 'sneak' across borders, or erase your travel records.

And as the article explained, the Mueller investigation did find evidence that Cohen had flow to Germany in 2016.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:10 PM   #1670
theprestige
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Excuse me? Doing a double take! I don't buy what you're selling.

Let's get real. Trump was selected President because of the rules. He was NOT elected because the majority of electorate cast their vote for him. It was because of rules created in 1789 that gave voters in rural states more power than in urban states. And it is because they also made it too difficult to change those rules.
Noted, and debated elsewhere at length. It's not my intention to continue that debate here. I'm simply defending against Belz...'s spurious accusation of "bobbing" the thread. I appreciate your desire to have a real debate on the issues. I apologize for declining in this one instance. I'm sure we'll cross swords again soon, though.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:18 PM   #1671
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
- prevent investigation into past election interference
check
- prevent added election security measures
check
- tell Russia it's fine to interfere in US elections
check
- tell Ukraine they better discredit D-candidate or else
check
- tell China to investigate D-candidates if they want a trade deal
check
- nominate judges who will rubberstamp R-gerrymandering
check

- use campaign money to pay off people with embarrassing information
check
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:23 PM   #1672
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Quote:
- prevent investigation into past election interference
check
- prevent added election security measures
check
- tell Russia it's fine to interfere in US elections
check
- tell Ukraine they better discredit D-candidate or else
check
- tell China to investigate D-candidates if they want a trade deal
check
- nominate judges who will rubberstamp R-gerrymandering
check
- use campaign money to pay off people with embarrassing information
check
- See that the Federal Elections Commission does not have the required numbers to do its enforcement, so that even if there is cheating during the elections, it cannot be properly dealt with.
check.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/27/75481...sioner-resigns
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:32 PM   #1673
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Where do you think Steele got his Russian info? And are you under the impression that Clinton was the only person to do anything with Steele's dodgy dosier?

The irony of people arguing against informing the public is also not lost on me.

There's a reason that it's illegal for foreign entities to contribute to our election candidates. There's a reason that Trump says that "reciprocity" is his favorite word.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:34 PM   #1674
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Wow, Just wow.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-ne...019/index.html

I knew they had been arrested, but that they were trying to get out of the country I did not know.
I think Giuliani might have become disposable...
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:49 PM   #1675
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's dodgy alright, that we don't know why Mueller didn't address the key evidence of Cohen's cell phone pinging near Prague.

McClatchy: Cell signal puts Cohen outside Prague around time of purported Russian meetingUnclear if true but a verrrrrry long way from dodgy.

The Mueller report leaves no doubt whatsoever that there was a lot of collusion with Russians that we still don't really understand.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:51 PM   #1676
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Huh?
I need you to be explicit in what you're trying to argue here.
I think, if Ziggurat were to lay it out explicitly, it would go like this : when Steele was employed in researching Trump's dealings in Russia he spoke to (among others) some Russian people. This means that the DNC colluded with "the Russians" to uncover dirt on Trump. "The Russians" meaning, of course, Russia - a foreign country.

One can understand Ziggurat's reluctance to set that out because he would then have to confront just how vapid are the foundations of his belief-system.

Of course, this case should not be confused with the Trump Tower meeting, which involved some Russian people actively offering dirt on Clinton. They, you see, were simply some Russians - not the Russians.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:51 PM   #1677
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I knew that two Giuliani associates had been arrested...that came out this morning...but that they were arrested trying to flee the country just came out over the past hour.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:57 PM   #1678
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You think Cohen managed to make the trip in secret, without the US government knowing he left the country and came back around those dates? And without leaving any paper trail they could follow?
Why would the US government be tracking a New York lawyer? Does it track all New York lawyers? Understandable if true, but is it?
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:59 PM   #1679
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Where do you think Steele got his Russian info? And are you under the impression that Clinton was the only person to do anything with Steele's dodgy dosier?

The irony of people arguing against informing the public is also not lost on me.
The Clinton Campaign didn't do anything with the dosier.

The FBI was given it from two sources, the first being John McCain after talking to Lindsay Graham about it, and the second was from Steele himself.

ETA: I'd also point out that the Clinton Campaign didn't hire Steele. Fusion started the investigation into Trump during the Republican Primary for one of the Republican campaigns, hence how McCain got hold of the dosier, and then when the Republican Primary ended Fusion approached the Clinton Campaign to see if they were interested in continuing the research. Steele was hired and paid by Fusion.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:09 PM   #1680
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Drawing the line at breaking the law can be principled. It can also be arbitrary. The way you're drawing it seems arbitrary. It seems especially arbitrary when you say things like "[f]or real Americans, it's assumed that you draw the line at breaking the law."

For one thing, breaking the law is sometimes the right thing to do, the principled thing to do.

For another thing, "real Americans" draw the line at breaking the law? Seriously?

The Sons of Liberty? Not real Americans.

Susan B. Anthony? Not a real American.

Henry Thoreau? Not a real American.

William Parker? Not a real American.

Martin Luther King? Not a real American.

Phil Radford? Not a real American.

Al Gore? Not a real American.

Dr Benjamin Spock? Not a real American.

And hell, since these guys are obviously not real Americans at all, it's likely that America isn't even a real country to begin with. Maybe America really is just Canadia's pants (and Florida is just Canadia's schlong). In this case, your concern about American law is moot, since American law isn't even real to begin with.

So yeah, I think it's reasonable to conclude that while commitment to the law can be principled and rational, in this case it's pretty clearly arbitrary and incoherent.

Given the well-established principle, recognized around the world, that sometimes the right thing to do is to break the law for the greater good, and given that such principled lawbreaking is baked right into the United States' DNA from its inception, I'm still curious why you so vehemently reject that option here. To the point of asserting that "real" Americans would never consider lawbreaking to be a valid option, which is laughable on its face.
As always, your analogies are incorrect. Your error is in not consider the democratic process. The decision to rebel was a lawful process of a group of assemblies and the Continental Congress. Our Rebellion was born out of a legal process.

I would hardly compare Trump supporters to the people you listed. Trump supporters don't mind that a president just makes up his laws. They also don't mind a part side t who whores himself to other countries, an idea entirely offensive to your list. Once again Trump supporters aren't loyal, real Americans.
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