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Tags donald trump , Hunter Biden , joe biden , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies , US-Ukraine relations

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Old 24th September 2019, 06:15 AM   #281
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The rule is all executive power is vested in a president.

This is the application of that rule.
You still don't get it. Yes, Trump had the legal authority to fire Comey, but doing so was clearly for the purpose of obstructing justice, a recognized charge in impeachment articles. Yes, Trump has the legal authority to talk secretly with foreign leaders and to use aid to pressure compliance, but that doesn't shield him from being charged with abuse of power for personal gain. If your interpretation of the Constitution were correct, there would be no provisions for impeachment. Articles of Impeachment typical begin with a boiler plate charge of failure to faithfully discharge the duties of the office, and that's all that's required. Once again, you're belaboring a pointless point.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:21 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so honest question. (And this is honest, no snark, not gotcha.)

We impeach Trump. And we'll say that either leads to removal of office OR political damage enough to cost him 2020.

But, let's say, the Dems still don't win. Another, more mainstream Republican, a "Romney" or a "McCain" let's say, wins 2020.

How much of a win would we consider that? Better then nothing?

Again serious question. It's not a likely scenario but... well have watched the last few years? Unlikely scenarios are pretty popular.
Romney would certainly be more normal and reassuring.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:23 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not sure either would hand him the election.
I'm certain that if the democrats do not impeach, then the democratic party's base will stay home and not vote.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:25 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm certain that if the democrats do not impeach, then the democratic party's base will stay home and not vote.
Where's the sense in that? "They didn't get rid of Trump so we won't do it either just to spite them?"

So (and I'm being half serious here) has "spite" just become the biggest driving factor for the political bases?
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:25 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You still don't get it. Yes, Trump had the legal authority to fire Comey, but doing so was clearly for the purpose of obstructing justice, a recognized charge in impeachment articles. Yes, Trump has the legal authority to talk secretly with foreign leaders and to use aid to pressure compliance, but that doesn't shield him from being charged with abuse of power for personal gain. If your interpretation of the Constitution were correct, there would be no provisions for impeachment. Articles of Impeachment typical begin with a boiler plate charge of failure to faithfully discharge the duties of the office, and that's all that's required. Once again, you're belaboring a pointless point.
All that is moot because the legislature has sole authority to determine a high crime. They have the power to impeach him for the high crime of not committing murder if they wanted.

This really only a applies to a post presidency legal defense.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:26 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so honest question. (And this is honest, no snark, not gotcha.)

We impeach Trump. And we'll say that either leads to removal of office OR political damage enough to cost him 2020.

But, let's say, the Dems still don't win. Another, more mainstream Republican, a "Romney" or a "McCain" let's say, wins 2020.

How much of a win would we consider that? Better then nothing?

Again serious question. It's not a likely scenario but... well have watched the last few years? Unlikely scenarios are pretty popular.
Massive win.
Because traditional Republicans know that what comes around, goes around.
Every liberty Trump took with GOP consent is something a D-WH can do, too. Republicans are worried about the number of lawsuits they have lost despite the fact that they have stacked the Courts. They would be loathe to have the powers of the President tested by the SC for fear of an undesirable outcome.
Even Pence would be a vast improvement over Trump.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:30 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What a strange scandal. No doubt that it happened, Trump is standing up on TV red handed and saying he did it.
"It" is a pretty vague term.

The thing that he has admitted to isn't a crime. There are circumstances that might make it a crime, but he hasn't admitted to those. Don't jump the gun.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:33 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm sympathetic to this argument. There are a few flaws though:

(1) The person doing the double dog dare is a dimwit.
Yep but a dimwit who keeps winning. At a certain point "LOL Trump is so stupid" starts becoming self-damaging when we can't keep the dimwit in check.

If a dimwit is running roughshod over everything, what does that make (g)us at this point?

Quote:
(2) A rep who believes in the quaint notion that their oath of office is actually meaningful might be compelled to impeach as a matter of constitutional duty, never mind moral imperatives.
Without rehashing the argument yesterday that I honestly don't want to revisit since we're both on the same side here, I just fundamentally disagree that there is anything wrong with waiting until you can actually do something to... do something.

Quote:
(3) We may be assigning too much weight to the Clinton history lesson.
This is all uncharted territory. We've only had 3 (I'm counting Nixon even though he pulled a "You can't fire me I quit") impeachment proceedings in American history, all under widely different circumstances and in widely different political environments.

We're rolling dice into the dark here.

Quote:
(4) Despite Clinton's surge in popularity after impeachment, Republicans retained control of both houses of congress in the election one month later.
The 1998 Republicans didn't have to worry about handing Clinton a second term, we do.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:34 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
"It" is a pretty vague term.

The thing that he has admitted to isn't a crime. There are circumstances that might make it a crime, but he hasn't admitted to those. Don't jump the gun.
Gulliani violated the Hatch act by his own words.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:34 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Massive win.
Because traditional Republicans know that what comes around, goes around.
Every liberty Trump took with GOP consent is something a D-WH can do, too. Republicans are worried about the number of lawsuits they have lost despite the fact that they have stacked the Courts. They would be loathe to have the powers of the President tested by the SC for fear of an undesirable outcome.
Even Pence would be a vast improvement over Trump.
Yep. Trump is a clear and present danger to US Democracy. Pence is a grifter fundamentalist that will lose the next election.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:35 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Massive win.
Because traditional Republicans know that what comes around, goes around.
Every liberty Trump took with GOP consent is something a D-WH can do, too. Republicans are worried about the number of lawsuits they have lost despite the fact that they have stacked the Courts. They would be loathe to have the powers of the President tested by the SC for fear of an undesirable outcome.
Even Pence would be a vast improvement over Trump.
So would a temperate or mainstream Republican in 2020 actually have certain advantages long term over going straight to either a mainstream or far progressive Democrat? Would that... calm waters at all?

I mean nobody freak out and start thinking I'm actually proposing this as a solution or hoped for goal, but it's an interesting line of thought.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:37 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So would a temperate or mainstream Republican in 2020 actually have certain advantages long term over going straight to either a mainstream or far progressive Democrat? Would that... calm waters at all?

I mean nobody freak out and start thinking I'm actually proposing this as a solution or hoped for goal, but it's an interesting line of thought.
Not sure it would. Conservatives aren't really interested in mainstream conservatism anymore. They are reactionary and hostile to the establishment. I don't see a path back to Bush era conservatism.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:37 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Gulliani violated the Hatch act by his own words.
I don't think the Hatch act applies to private citizens.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:39 AM   #294
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't think the Hatch act applies to private citizens.
Of course it does.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:40 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So would a temperate or mainstream Republican in 2020 actually have certain advantages long term over going straight to either a mainstream or far progressive Democrat? Would that... calm waters at all?

I mean nobody freak out and start thinking I'm actually proposing this as a solution or hoped for goal, but it's an interesting line of thought.
I think it would, since it would open a window in which Dems might end up in control of all three pieces of power.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:42 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't think the Hatch act applies to private citizens.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Of course it does.

Just go to Wikipedia.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:44 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Massive win.
Because traditional Republicans know that what comes around, goes around.
Every liberty Trump took with GOP consent is something a D-WH can do, too. Republicans are worried about the number of lawsuits they have lost despite the fact that they have stacked the Courts. They would be loathe to have the powers of the President tested by the SC for fear of an undesirable outcome.
Even Pence would be a vast improvement over Trump.
A big steaming pile of horse manure would be a vast improvement over Trump.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:46 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
"It" is a pretty vague term.

The thing that he has admitted to isn't a crime. There are circumstances that might make it a crime, but he hasn't admitted to those. Don't jump the gun.
Executive abuse isn't codified into the law. The founders left it up to the legislature to police executive abuse via broad impeachment powers. Wielding state power as for the benefit of personal political interests is unambiguously a cause for impeachment.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:47 AM   #299
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I'm an idiot.

I meant Rudi is violating the Logan Act, blatantly and continuously so.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:50 AM   #300
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Again there is, was, and sort of always has to be a "We're just going to trust the electorate to not elect a psychopathic man-child who's intentionally trying to destroy the system from within" 4th check and balance over this whole thing.

If the electorate is engaged and honest and at least trying to put people in to power they think are going to do good, even if they wind up being massively wrong on a massive scale, the system can adjust. If Trump was just another "bad" President, even if he was the worst President ever on the same scale by a huge margin, this wouldn't be 1/100th the issue it is.

Putting a troll in office breaks the system. He's not some not level of bad, he's a new kind of bad.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:57 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Putting a troll in office breaks the system. He's not some not level of bad, he's a new kind of bad.
not necessarily. A troll could be removed by impeachment. You have to have a troll and a legislature determined to not check the abuse.

The legislature is failing in its role to check the executive. The courts are still doing an mostly ok job, but many times it is finding that it is not their role to stop executive abuse. SCOTUS and lesser courts is very clearly telegraphing that this is the legislatures mess to clean up, they just won't do it.
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:57 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I believe that failure of the house to impeach him hands him 2020 on a silver platter.
Look he is going to spin either as proving his innocents despite all evidence. Which will voters react to more is hard to be sure. I want to see them have more guts to go after the administration in public but will impeachment be helpful to win the election I don't know.

Hell McConnell wouldn't even let the trial go forward
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Old 24th September 2019, 06:59 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so honest question. (And this is honest, no snark, not gotcha.)

We impeach Trump. And we'll say that either leads to removal of office OR political damage enough to cost him 2020.

But, let's say, the Dems still don't win. Another, more mainstream Republican, a "Romney" or a "McCain" let's say, wins 2020.

How much of a win would we consider that? Better then nothing?

Again serious question. It's not a likely scenario but... well have watched the last few years? Unlikely scenarios are pretty popular.
Hard to say, Trump is as much a symptom as a true cause of problems himself.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:03 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm an idiot.

I meant Rudi is violating the Logan Act, blatantly and continuously so.
Getting the name wrong doesn't make you an idiot. Logan Act makes sense.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:04 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue;12830793[HILITE
]So would a temperate or mainstream Republican in 2020 actually have certain advantages long term over going straight to either a mainstream or far progressive Democrat?[/hilite] Would that... calm waters at all?

I mean nobody freak out and start thinking I'm actually proposing this as a solution or hoped for goal, but it's an interesting line of thought.
Is a different Republican even a possibility at this point? Haven't they suspended the primaries in a myriad of states that will prohibit that from happening?
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:04 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Executive abuse isn't codified into the law. The founders left it up to the legislature to police executive abuse via broad impeachment powers. Wielding state power as for the benefit of personal political interests is unambiguously a cause for impeachment.
Unambiguously?
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:05 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
All that is moot because the legislature has sole authority to determine a high crime. They have the power to impeach him for the high crime of not committing murder if they wanted.

This really only a applies to a post presidency legal defense.
Which is also moot and pointless, since it's not a valid defense against actual crimes like obstruction of justice and extortion, and since we don't prosecute former presidents even when they deserve it, anyway.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:08 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is a different Republican even a possibility at this point? Haven't they suspended the primaries in a myriad of states that will prohibit that from happening?
I honestly don't know. It's a weird time and it's hard to figure out how far out there stuff can reasonably be entertained.

I mean if Trump is impeached and removed I guess Pence in 2020 isn't some totally insane hypothetical.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:09 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hard to say, Trump is as much a symptom as a true cause of problems himself.
Yeah, but when a pus-filled toe is a symptom of gout they treat both the gout and the toe.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:10 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is a different Republican even a possibility at this point? Haven't they suspended the primaries in a myriad of states that will prohibit that from happening?
Of course it is, they can pick who they want at the convention
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:13 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm an idiot.

I meant Rudi is violating the Logan Act, blatantly and continuously so.
Blatantly? I'm not sure it's so simple. Maybe if we compare his case to others who have been prosecuted inder the act.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:16 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Which is also moot and pointless, since it's not a valid defense against actual crimes like obstruction of justice and extortion, and since we don't prosecute former presidents even when they deserve it, anyway.
It is a valid defense.

Though not the right word because it wouldn't be resolved at that stage of the trial.

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Old 24th September 2019, 07:22 AM   #313
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I'm pretty sure the president can authorize Rudy to do it.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #314
varwoche
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Just go to Wikipedia.
I have 99% confidence. I don't think wikipedia will manage to close that gap -- that requires going to the source. Going to the source is a good idea in general.
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Old 24th September 2019, 07:43 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is a different Republican even a possibility at this point? Haven't they suspended the primaries in a myriad of states that will prohibit that from happening?
If Republicans were smart, they'd reconsider that decision at this point. Which of course means it won't happen.
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:04 AM   #316
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
"It" is a pretty vague term.

The thing that he has admitted to isn't a crime. There are circumstances that might make it a crime, but he hasn't admitted to those. Don't jump the gun.
Contrary to popular opinion, circumstantial evidence is often much stronger than direct eyewitness testimony, since people are often wrong about what they think happened or could be simply lying about it.
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:09 AM   #317
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm pretty sure the president can authorize Rudy to do it.
Trump may have the ability to authorize Giuliani to engage in diplomatic relations on behalf of the government, but I suspect there are rules about how it gets done... background checks, congressional oversight, etc. He can't just tell a random person "Go negotiate this treaty".

There is no indication that Giuliani went through any sort of due process to give him the authority to negotiate with Ukraine; therefore, his attempts to negotiate on behalf of the Trump administration were likely a violation of the Logan act.
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:21 AM   #318
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Quote:
Okay so honest question. (And this is honest, no snark, not gotcha.)

We impeach Trump. And we'll say that either leads to removal of office OR political damage enough to cost him 2020.

But, let's say, the Dems still don't win. Another, more mainstream Republican, a "Romney" or a "McCain" let's say, wins 2020.

How much of a win would we consider that? Better then nothing?
Possibly better than nothing, but hard to say. Remember, whatever president replaces Trump in a hypothetical situation will probably continue doing much of the same work that had been going on... Right-wing judges will still be appointed to the courts (probably using the same "Cram them through over all objections" that they have been using for the past few years. Voter suppression will still continue (gotta stay in power somehow...). The debt will continue to rise, since I haven't really seen any republicans claim "Ooops... our tax cuts were a mistake. Lets undo them". They will still probably continue to allow Russian interference (just be a bit smarter about it).

Best case scenario: Trump is impeached and replaced by a Romney/McCain/Pence. All of the inane tweeting, and overt racism ends, and the Republicans lose power in the next election, due to lingering fallout over the Trump presidency. The Democrats can then begin to fix the country.

Worst case scenario: Trump is impeached and replaced, but the replacement Republican president manages to win the 2020 election (with the slogan "I'm still right wing, but won't act as crazy as Trump"). Republicans continue their unethical activities, but just aren't as blatant about it. Democrats have to wait even longer before they start trying to fix Republican damage.
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:25 AM   #319
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Trump may have the ability to authorize Giuliani to engage in diplomatic relations on behalf of the government, but I suspect there are rules about how it gets done... background checks, congressional oversight, etc. He can't just tell a random person "Go negotiate this treaty".

There is no indication that Giuliani went through any sort of due process to give him the authority to negotiate with Ukraine; therefore, his attempts to negotiate on behalf of the Trump administration were likely a violation of the Logan act.
Just like the ability to declassify on a whim, I'm pretty sure the ability to delegate this is just intrinsically reserved to the president
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Old 24th September 2019, 08:37 AM   #320
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm pretty sure the president can authorize Rudy to do it.
he could, but that would allow Congress to investigate everything Rudy does.
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