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Tags donald trump , impeachment , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies

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Old 24th September 2019, 10:13 AM   #1
Segnosaur
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Trump Impeachment: What crimes to include

So, it looks like Trump may soon have to deal with impeachment, as support for impeachment from house Democrats is increasing.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-investigation
A wave of moderate first-term Democrats from Trump-friendly districts, who up to this point have resisted liberal membersí calls for impeachment, got on board with an impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump late Monday night.... About two-thirds of the caucus now support an inquiry, and more are following.

The Democrats have to decide how many articles to include in the impeachment process. To me, it seems rather... tricky. They could try to include everything, regardless of how small (with the idea that enough will stick to make even some existing Trump supporters to say "Whoa! I didn't know he was that bad!"). But, the risk of that is that they could end up seeming petty.

So, which of Trump's crimes do you think should be included in the impeachment?
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:23 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So, which of Trump's crimes do you think should be included in the impeachment?
What are the choices?
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:24 AM   #3
The Great Zaganza
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This one can be adapted with minimal editing:

https://watergate.info/impeachment/a...of-impeachment
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:26 AM   #4
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Focus on a small number of the more egregious ones. Enrichment, election interference, obstruction.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:31 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Focus on a small number of the more egregious ones. Enrichment, election interference, obstruction.
I'm not sure even the obstruction charge(s) would be a small number.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:32 AM   #6
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Just one charge, a lot of evidence.

Or maybe just focus on a single thing that's considered the most egregious or easiest to demonstrate.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:33 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
What are the choices?
Well, there are 10 choices of obstruction from the Mueller report to start with.

I imagine soliciting Ukraine to dig up dirt on a US political rival is probably on the list as well.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:36 AM   #8
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This sounds like something that should be rather obvious if impeachment is indeed that close. I mean, if you don't even have a good idea which "high crimes and misdemeanors" you are going to include yet, maybe you should start there before you start talking about impeachment.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:40 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This sounds like something that should be rather obvious if impeachment is indeed that close. I mean, if you don't even have a good idea which "high crimes and misdemeanors" you are going to include yet, maybe you should start there before you start talking about impeachment.
NOTE: The members of this forum will not impeach Trump. I'm sure the Democrats have a fair idea of what they want to do.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:41 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I'm not sure even the obstruction charge(s) would be a small number.
Yeah, but I think the point is, don't include any that are weak or trivial. Republicans will relentlessly attack the weakest points to distract from the strong ones.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:46 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
NOTE: The members of this forum will not impeach Trump. I'm sure the Democrats have a fair idea of what they want to do.
Right. And that seems very clear and obvious: This Ukraine thing and maybe the Mueller probe obstruction charges. Anything beyond that is less significant so I don't see much to speculate about.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:46 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
What are the choices?
Here are some, just off the top of my head:

- Ukranian/whistleblower allegations
- Obstruction of Justice (from the Mueller report)
- Perjury (re: Mueller's statements that Trump's written responses were not truthful)
- Sharpie-gate: Giving false weather information (warning Alabama it could be hit by hurricane Dorian) is technically a crime
- Campaign finance violations related to Stormy Daniels payments and the like
- Emoluments related to foreign countries (e.g. when countries like Saudi Arabia rent his hotel rooms)
- Emoluments related to the United states (e.g. when U.S. military uses Trump resorts in Ireland)
- Promises to pardon people who break the law over construction of the border wall
- Crimes related to his actions before he became president (there are suggestions he was engaged in money laundering for example. Or there may be issues with the Trump foundation. Admittedly these would probably need more verification to confirm than some of his other crimes.)

They could also go for a more generic 'you violated the oath of office', and go after things like:
- Revealing state secrets to Russian and/or Iran (the president does have the ability to declassify information, but to do so in the manner he did might seem like a violation of the promise to 'protect' the constitution)
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:46 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
NOTE: The members of this forum will not impeach Trump. I'm sure the Democrats have a fair idea of what they want to do.
Giving them too much credit.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:48 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This sounds like something that should be rather obvious if impeachment is indeed that close. I mean, if you don't even have a good idea which "high crimes and misdemeanors" you are going to include yet, maybe you should start there before you start talking about impeachment.
Exactly felonies are something everyone does 10 times a day that is why it is so weird to bar them from owning firearms. Give all felons like Trump nuclear weapons I say. That is in the spirit of the second amendment.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Yeah, but I think the point is, don't include any that are weak or trivial. Republicans will relentlessly attack the weakest points to distract from the strong ones.
I mean it isn't like evidence and such has stopped them from dismissing things until now.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:51 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This sounds like something that should be rather obvious if impeachment is indeed that close. I mean, if you don't even have a good idea which "high crimes and misdemeanors" you are going to include yet, maybe you should start there before you start talking about impeachment.
I haven't heard anyone say impeachment will be happening anytime soon; Pelosi is just asking the House to approve an official inquiry to come up with just that list. If you don't know what the list might be, you need to catch up. If you don't think it will lead to Articles and a vote, you're an incorrigible optimist.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:52 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
They could also go for a more generic 'you violated the oath of office', and go after things like:
- Revealing state secrets to Russian and/or Iran (the president does have the ability to declassify information, but to do so in the manner he did might seem like a violation of the promise to 'protect' the constitution)
Hey you left out helping the Saudi's purge political enemies with US intelligence.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Here are some, just off the top of my head:

....


EDIT
- Sharpie-gate: Giving false weather information (warning Alabama it could be hit by hurricane Dorian) is technically a crime

...
not this one.
The map Trump showed was out-of-date; he did not claim that this was what will happen, only what might have happened. This doesn't qualify as tampering with an official weather report.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:55 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey you left out helping the Saudi's purge political enemies with US intelligence.
Now that seems like a political difference rather than anything traditionally criminal.
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Old 24th September 2019, 10:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This sounds like something that should be rather obvious if impeachment is indeed that close. I mean, if you don't even have a good idea which "high crimes and misdemeanors" you are going to include yet, maybe you should start there before you start talking about impeachment.
Trump has presented the country with a situation where we almost have too many options. If they drew up articles of impeachment based on all of them, itíd be too complex to deal with all of them in one go.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:00 AM   #21
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Regardless of what crimes they select, Trump is almost guaranteed to criminally interfere in the investigation, so plan to add additional articles for fresh obstruction.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Trump has presented the country with a situation where we almost have too many options. If they drew up articles of impeachment based on all of them, itíd be too complex to deal with all of them in one go.
Maybe they can impeach him for the next four years.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Quote:
Here are some, just off the top of my head:

EDIT
- Sharpie-gate: Giving false weather information (warning Alabama it could be hit by hurricane Dorian) is technically a crime
not this one.
The map Trump showed was out-of-date; he did not claim that this was what will happen, only what might have happened. This doesn't qualify as tampering with an official weather report.
The law states: "Whoever knowingly issues or publishes any counterfeit weather forecast or warning of weather conditions falsely representing such forecast or warning to have been issued or published by the Weather Bureau, United States Signal Service, or other branch of the Government service, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ninety days, or both"

Trump had been briefed earlier in the day that Alabama would not be affected. Even if the map was 'out-of-date", at the time of Trump's statement, Trump should already have known that Alabama would not be affected. Extending the potential areas that could be affected by the hurricane contradicted what Trump had been told about earlier.

Now, you could make the case that "The broken law was so minor that including it makes impeachement seem petty", but it was still a broken law. (And unlike so many other crimes, such as emoluments violations, its pretty easy to prove.)
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
not this one.
The map Trump showed was out-of-date; he did not claim that this was what will happen, only what might have happened. This doesn't qualify as tampering with an official weather report.
Exactly no one could possibly believe anything the president says. That way lies madness. I am waiting for Bin Laden to show up because seriously why should I accept a presidents word that he is dead? Liars all of them.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:12 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Regardless of what crimes they select, Trump is almost guaranteed to criminally interfere in the investigation, so plan to add additional articles for fresh obstruction.
But obstruction of justice is legal when a republican president does it. Just ask any republican. That is why Nixon got railroaded, he was totally within is powers all along.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Just one charge, a lot of evidence.

Or maybe just focus on a single thing that's considered the most egregious or easiest to demonstrate.
Agreed. As odd as it sounds if we charge Trump with everything he's actually done, it's gonna feel more and more like "throwing everything against the wall and hope somethings sticks" and will allow Trump to continue his "distract from the thing I did wrong by doing something else worse" tactic.

Trump's biggest power has always been to make sure nobody can agree on what to be angry at him about, he's given us so many options. One of the reasons he's so untouchable is I don't see us getting the Dems on the same page as to what to be angry at him about.

Just pick something. He has his hand in the cookie jar. There impeach him for that. When he tries to distract us by raping the dog JUST KEEP YELLING AT HIM ABOUT THE COOKIE JAR EVEN THOUGHT WE KNOW RAPING THE DOG IS WORSE.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:29 AM   #27
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After three years of desperate searching for The One Thing, it'll be interesting to see what the Dems actually settle on for their big play.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
After three years of desperate searching for The One Thing, it'll be interesting to see what the Dems actually settle on for their big play.
What's more interesting is how the Repugnicans do nothing in response to same.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:34 AM   #29
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I think the list should include all ten incidents of obstruction of justice that Mueller documented (just to rub it in, if nothing else); the emoluments; the hush-money campaign finance violations and any possible tax fraud that might be uncovered; and this Ukrainian extortion mess. I might add misappropriating military budget to pay for his stupid wall, but that one makes him a hero to some people.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:35 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's more interesting is how the Repugnicans do nothing in response to same.
Because Nixon was right, obstruction of justice is legal when a republican president does it. There is also the fundamental republican principle that the rich are above any and all laws. That is what we need to overcome after all.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:38 AM   #31
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There were 4 articles of impeachment submitted against Clinton

2 counts of perjury
1 count obstruction of justice
1 count abuse of power

1 count of perjury and the obstruction article passed the House.

All the charges were for actions committed while Clinton held office, so I would stay away from the Stormy Daniels stuff (for so many reasons)

ETA: I don't mean that as a reason for getting back at Republicans, but rather to work from established precedent.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:40 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I think the list should include all ten incidents of obstruction of justice that Mueller documented (just to rub it in, if nothing else); the emoluments; the hush-money campaign finance violations and any possible tax fraud that might be uncovered; and this Ukrainian extortion mess. I might add misappropriating military budget to pay for his stupid wall, but that one makes him a hero to some people.
Folks who hate the troops. Or at least our troops worthless kids.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:40 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
There were 4 articles of impeachment submitted against Clinton

2 counts of perjury
1 count obstruction of justice
1 count abuse of power

1 count of perjury and the obstruction article passed the House.

All the charges were for actions committed while Clinton held office, so I would stay away from the Stormy Daniels stuff (for so many reasons)
The nano-second anyone in an actual position of power or influences pulls the "But you impeached Clinton!" card, the impeachment turns into a political revenge scheme in the public's eyes.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:43 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The nano-second anyone in an actual position of power or influences pulls the "But you impeached Clinton!" card, the impeachment turns into a political revenge scheme in the public's eyes.
Ya, I phrased that poorly. I meant that as a historical reference for the sake of precedent, not as a way to make it tit-for-tat.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:49 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
There were 4 articles of impeachment submitted against Clinton

2 counts of perjury
1 count obstruction of justice
1 count abuse of power

1 count of perjury and the obstruction article passed the House.

All the charges were for actions committed while Clinton held office, so I would stay away from the Stormy Daniels stuff (for so many reasons)

ETA: I don't mean that as a reason for getting back at Republicans, but rather to work from established precedent.
With the election as close as it was, Trump might well not have won without those hush-money payouts, and we wouldn't be dealing with this mess. That, and what it says about his character, are why I include it.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:56 AM   #36
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Maybe we should see the evidence first?
I hate Trump as much as anybody, but am really concerned about impeachment backfiring and giving him a second term in the white house.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:58 AM   #37
applecorped
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lol, Pence 2020 (after the pardon)
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:58 AM   #38
Belz...
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
With the election as close as it was, Trump might well not have won without those hush-money payouts, and we wouldn't be dealing with this mess. That, and what it says about his character, are why I include it.
There're a lot of questions about whether Trump would've won if this or that hadn't happened. With the coverage the Russian fake news had, that's my main question about that.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:58 AM   #39
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
There were 4 articles of impeachment submitted against Clinton

2 counts of perjury
1 count obstruction of justice
1 count abuse of power

1 count of perjury and the obstruction article passed the House.

All the charges were for actions committed while Clinton held office
I think the difference between Trump and Clinton is that Trump seems to have major crimes that he was involved in before he took office (such as potential money laundering). Clinton may not have been perfect, but there wasn't much in the way of potential criminal activity prior to the presidency. (There was whitewater but as of yet there doesn't seem to be evidence that they themselves were involved.)
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so I would stay away from the Stormy Daniels stuff (for so many reasons)
The Stormy daniels stuff could get messy from a P.R. point of view (with the whole sexual aspect outweighing Trump's criminal activity.) But what other reasons can you see for omitting them?
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ETA: I don't mean that as a reason for getting back at Republicans, but rather to work from established precedent.
The problem is that whatever 'precedent' provided by the Clinton impeachment is rather ill fitting.

Clinton's impeachment was based almost completely on Republican's attempts to score political points. (The fact that Starr couldn't pin any whitewater stuff on him and had to go searching for stuff from Clinton's sexual history is evidence of this.)

On the other hand, there are real, serious, and numerous crimes that Trump has engaged in. Even without the politics, there are serious legal issues here.
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Old 24th September 2019, 11:58 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe they can impeach him for the next four years.
Serioulay, I think the best approach for the Dems is to have inquiries, have hearings, get the info out there, but avoid actual Impeachment until after the elections. If Trump loses, they become unnecessary....they can give the info to the court system if statute law violatins are involved...if he is reelected, they have nothing left to use. But an impeachment followed by an acquittal would be disasterous for the Democrats.
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