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Tags donald trump , impeachment , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies

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Old 24th September 2019, 11:59 AM   #41
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's more interesting is how the Repugnicans do nothing in response to same.
That's not interesting at all. The Republicans are underreacting, the Democrats are overreacting. That is pretty boring, politics as usual type stuff. The specifics of which charge(s) the Democrats are going to commit to as the The One Thing For Real This Time, are kind of interesting.

Ranting about how the Republicans are unwilling to impeach might have been interesting a couple years ago, when it had some chance of being a novel insight.

And "Repugnicans" must have been interesting for all of about 30 seconds after it was first coined.

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Old 24th September 2019, 12:05 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's not interesting at all. The Republicans are underreacting, the Democrats are overreacting.
No, no they aren't overreacting.

All evidence points to one thing: That Trump has committed serious crimes (both before and during his presidency). Crimes can and should be investigated, and if appropriate, punished (regardless of who the criminal is).

That it has taken Democrats this long to respond doesn't mean they are over-reacting. If anything, they were under-reacting, since many Democrats think there was enough to impeach Trump months ago.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:11 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
No, no they aren't overreacting.
Are too!

Quote:
All evidence points to one thing: That Trump has committed serious crimes (both before and during his presidency). Crimes can and should be investigated, and if appropriate, punished (regardless of who the criminal is).
See this? Banalities that are not actually in dispute. Not interesting.

Quote:
That it has taken Democrats this long to respond doesn't mean they are over-reacting. If anything, they were under-reacting, since many Democrats think there was enough to impeach Trump months ago.
Or many Democrats have been overreacting for months, and the Democratic leadership has been finally lost control of them.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Maybe we should see the evidence first?
I hate Trump as much as anybody, but am really concerned about impeachment backfiring and giving him a second term in the white house.
Read the Mueller report for one. The evidence of many of the felonies he has committed is a public record, hell an investigation ended because the justice department figured he was guilty but they don't indict presidents.

Sure for Ukraine we can't definitively say he broke the law, or violated high crimes and misdemeanors which do not have to be specifically illegal.

Is obstruction of justice a presidential prerogative like republicans claim, or a crime even for the president?
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:21 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
There're a lot of questions about whether Trump would've won if this or that hadn't happened. With the coverage the Russian fake news had, that's my main question about that.
With him bragging about committing sexual assault, why on earth would a little side piece be a big deal to anyone?
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think the difference between Trump and Clinton is that Trump seems to have major crimes that he was involved in before he took office (such as potential money laundering). Clinton may not have been perfect, but there wasn't much in the way of potential criminal activity prior to the presidency. (There was whitewater but as of yet there doesn't seem to be evidence that they themselves were involved.)

The Stormy daniels stuff could get messy from a P.R. point of view (with the whole sexual aspect outweighing Trump's criminal activity.) But what other reasons can you see for omitting them?

The problem is that whatever 'precedent' provided by the Clinton impeachment is rather ill fitting.

Clinton's impeachment was based almost completely on Republican's attempts to score political points. (The fact that Starr couldn't pin any whitewater stuff on him and had to go searching for stuff from Clinton's sexual history is evidence of this.)

On the other hand, there are real, serious, and numerous crimes that Trump has engaged in. Even without the politics, there are serious legal issues here.
And if Clinton was paying illegal hush money and committing felonies with his fixer and the owner of the national enquirer he certainly would have been convicted in the senate.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's not interesting at all. The Republicans are underreacting, the Democrats are overreacting.
Yea I mean sure as a felon Trump shouldn't be allowed to own guns but nukes are fine for all felons. Felonies are like raping some drunk chick just a thing that all rich powerful men do, not something that should be held against them.

I mean god immagine if you were prosecuted for every single felony everyone admits you did!
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:26 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Or many Democrats have been overreacting for months, and the Democratic leadership has been finally lost control of them.
Yea like Republicans were overreacting merely because Obama had Trump bugged to try to cost him the election, that is just presidential prerogatives there.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:29 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think the difference between Trump and Clinton is that Trump seems to have major crimes that he was involved in before he took office (such as potential money laundering). Clinton may not have been perfect, but there wasn't much in the way of potential criminal activity prior to the presidency. (There was whitewater but as of yet there doesn't seem to be evidence that they themselves were involved.)
Fair enough. I just think the Dems will want to KISS so the general public doesn't get disinterested too quickly. As much as I want to believe this is purely about right and wrong, there is a political calculus involved.

Quote:
The Stormy daniels stuff could get messy from a P.R. point of view (with the whole sexual aspect outweighing Trump's criminal activity.) But what other reasons can you see for omitting them?
Mainly because it happened before he took office (the major stuff anyway). I don't think it is a good idea to go after something that can get bogged down on a technicality. This process is going to be muddy enough.

Quote:
The problem is that whatever 'precedent' provided by the Clinton impeachment is rather ill fitting.

Clinton's impeachment was based almost completely on Republican's attempts to score political points. (The fact that Starr couldn't pin any whitewater stuff on him and had to go searching for stuff from Clinton's sexual history is evidence of this.)

On the other hand, there are real, serious, and numerous crimes that Trump has engaged in. Even without the politics, there are serious legal issues here.
You're right and in a world where our elected officials were acting in the best interest of the country, I'd be 100% with you. I just think keeping this in line with what has already been done gives the Republicans less room to maneuver.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:33 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think the difference between Trump and Clinton is that Trump seems to have major crimes that he was involved in before he took office (such as potential money laundering). Clinton may not have been perfect, but there wasn't much in the way of potential criminal activity prior to the presidency. (There was whitewater but as of yet there doesn't seem to be evidence that they themselves were involved.)

The Stormy daniels stuff could get messy from a P.R. point of view (with the whole sexual aspect outweighing Trump's criminal activity.) But what other reasons can you see for omitting them?

The problem is that whatever 'precedent' provided by the Clinton impeachment is rather ill fitting.

Clinton's impeachment was based almost completely on Republican's attempts to score political points. (The fact that Starr couldn't pin any whitewater stuff on him and had to go searching for stuff from Clinton's sexual history is evidence of this.)

On the other hand, there are real, serious, and numerous crimes that Trump has engaged in. Even without the politics, there are serious legal issues here.
Lying under oath is a real serious crime.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:33 PM   #51
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Looks like we will get the answer to this hypothetical question sooner than we thought....

Quote:
House Speaker Pelosi to announce formal impeachment inquiry of Trump
https://www.washingtonpost.com/power...40f_story.html
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:35 PM   #52
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I just hope they know what they are doing. I really do.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:36 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I just hope they know what they are doing. I really do.
How would anyone know what to do?
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How would anyone know what to do?
By your... ahem "standards" I'm sure nobody does Bob.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Read the Mueller report for one. The evidence of many of the felonies he has committed is a public record, hell an investigation ended because the justice department figured he was guilty but they don't indict presidents.

Sure for Ukraine we can't definitively say he broke the law, or violated high crimes and misdemeanors which do not have to be specifically illegal.

Is obstruction of justice a presidential prerogative like republicans claim, or a crime even for the president?
Trumpers believe that obstruction of justice is a perfectly justified response when someone who is so obviously innocent is so unfairly attacked with suspicions of doing anything wrong. So yeah, it's only the prerogative of Republican presidents.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:43 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I just hope they know what they are doing. I really do.
At some point you can't cross your fingers and pray people will support the Dem party anymore. They need to take action. How blatantly he's breaking the law is disgusting.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Lying under oath is a real serious crime.
It's a real crime, but how serious is another matter. That's why judges have leeway in sentencing.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
At some point you can't cross your fingers and pray people will support the Dem party anymore. They need to take action. How blatantly he's breaking the law is disgusting.
Agreed, but the huge problem I have with Impeahcment is the chances of getting a conviction are zero.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:49 PM   #59
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So what are we gonna hear at 5 from Pelosi? Just a vague "We're going forward" or actual like detailed "Here's what we are starting impeachment proceedings on, bullet form, accusations X, Y, and Z, the whole show starts a 8:00 on this day" kind of thing?
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:52 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Mainly because it happened before he took office (the major stuff anyway). I don't think it is a good idea to go after something that can get bogged down on a technicality. This process is going to be muddy enough.
Yea like that stopped white water and would have preventing anything had they turned up clear felonies on the part of clinton. If Bill committed felonies in white water he would have been impeached and convicted. Seriously "sure he committed some felonies and should go to prison for years because of it but they were before he was president." 5 years ago anyone saying such crap would be thought of as truly insane.

Are we sure we want to turn into Italy where becoming President turns out to be a good way to prevent you from going to prison?
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:54 PM   #61
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I would imagine the mechanics of the impeachment inquiry. Probably a special p[anel or something to review specific events and documents.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:56 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea like that stopped white water and would have preventing anything had they turned up clear felonies on the part of clinton. If Bill committed felonies in white water he would have been impeached and convicted. Seriously "sure he committed some felonies and should go to prison for years because of it but they were before he was president." 5 years ago anyone saying such crap would be thought of as truly insane.

Are we sure we want to turn into Italy where becoming President turns out to be a good way to prevent you from going to prison?
Like I said before, I would love for this to be an issue or right or wrong, but there is a political calculus involved.

FEC violations are not the biggest crimes he can charged with.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:57 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
It's a real crime, but how serious is another matter. That's why judges have leeway in sentencing.
Yep why all the lying to congress by this administration and Trumps family is totally fine, that is clearly the good kind of lying under oath.

Seriously with how many people in this administration and trump family have lied under oath they are going to pretend they care about it for a question in a civil case that got thrown out that shouldn't even have been asked?

I guess sure lying under oath about banging porn stars is fine, but not about banging the intern? And congress was wrong to ask the attorney general candidates about russian connections, that is blatantly illegal to ask or something.

This is the wrong administration to take a stance about perjury.
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Old 24th September 2019, 12:59 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Like I said before, I would love for this to be an issue or right or wrong, but there is a political calculus involved.

FEC violations are not the biggest crimes he can charged with.
Oh I agree, but they are clear felonies we know he committed like the obstruction of justice. The problem is that republicans love these crimes. He is now braging about tying Ukranian funding to biden investigations. They love how blatant his crimes are.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:00 PM   #65
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Trump's chants of "Lock her up. Lock her up" during the election are looking increasingly ironic.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:06 PM   #66
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:08 PM   #67
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Nate Silver at 538 has some impeachment advice:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-be-different/
Quote:
Lesson No. 1: Be narrow and specific, perhaps with a near-exclusive focus on Ukraine
Lesson No. 2: Don’t overpromise on details unless you can deliver.
Lesson No. 3: Emphasize the threats to election integrity.
Lesson No. 4: Stay unified.
Lesson No. 5: Work quickly and urgently.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Nate Silver at 538 has some impeachment advice:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-be-different/
I'd agree with all of those.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:11 PM   #69
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I am however extremely disappointed in America in that we haven't yet bestowed a code name based upon a porn movie title to the whistleblower.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:13 PM   #70
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How about "Stormy" ?
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:13 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's not interesting at all. The Republicans are underreacting, the Democrats are overreacting. That is pretty boring, politics as usual type stuff. The specifics of which charge(s) the Democrats are going to commit to as the The One Thing For Real This Time, are kind of interesting.

Ranting about how the Republicans are unwilling to impeach might have been interesting a couple years ago, when it had some chance of being a novel insight.

And "Repugnicans" must have been interesting for all of about 30 seconds after it was first coined.
Just to recap: theprestige thinks this is boring and uninteresting.

And he's been kind enough to post three times in this thread already to let us all know how bored and uninterested he is.

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Old 24th September 2019, 01:15 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
How about "Stormy" ?
Apparently no one cares about those felonies. Just like the obstruction of justice. That is all presidential in republican eyes.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:21 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Just to recap: theprestige thinks this is boring and uninteresting.

And he's been kind enough to post three times in this thread already to let us all know how bored and uninterested he is.
Ya, I figured out a while ago you go right past his "contributions" to these discussions.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:22 PM   #74
theprestige
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So what are we gonna hear at 5 from Pelosi? Just a vague "We're going forward" or actual like detailed "Here's what we are starting impeachment proceedings on, bullet form, accusations X, Y, and Z, the whole show starts a 8:00 on this day" kind of thing?
Not sure she'd want to telegraph her game plan to Trump's lawyers any earlier than strictly necessary.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:23 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not sure she'd want to telegraph her game plan to Trump's lawyers any earlier than strictly necessary.
Hopefully Trump will add Giuliani to his crack legal defense team.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:25 PM   #76
theprestige
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Just to recap: theprestige thinks this is boring and uninteresting.

And he's been kind enough to post three times in this thread already to let us all know how bored and uninterested he is.
What's "this", in your analysis?
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:29 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's "this", in your analysis?
The multiple things in your quoted post that you deemed boring or uninteresting.
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:30 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I am however extremely disappointed in America in that we haven't yet bestowed a code name based upon a porn movie title to the whistleblower.
Deep Throat 2 seems the obvious choice.....
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:43 PM   #79
theprestige
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The multiple things in your quoted post that you deemed boring or uninteresting.
More of a "these", then, but whatever.

Which "this" have I posted about three times in this thread?
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Old 24th September 2019, 01:44 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Deep Throat 2 seems the obvious choice.....
In the same way that making a sequel instead of coming up with something original seems like an obvious choice to Hollywood.
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