ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , impeachment , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies

Reply
Old 25th September 2019, 04:56 PM   #161
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 45,623
Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
This phrase is often misinterpreted to mean crimes and misdemeanors that go beyond the ordinary. A high crime must be worse than a regular one, right?


In fact, the phrase means crimes and misdemeanors committed while occupying a "high" office, e.g., the presidency or other high office.
As the saying goes, the definition of wrongdoing is so broad that the Congress could impeach the President for eating a cheese sandwich if it wanted to.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2019, 04:59 PM   #162
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 45,623
Gotta give some credit to Pelosi for a latin quote and a Roman history reference:

Quote:
Use any metaphor you want: crossing the Rubicon, alea iacta est+
The latin means "The Die Is Cast" what Julius Caesar supposedly said when he crossed the Rubicon and started the Roman Civil War.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2019, 06:55 PM   #163
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,486
Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
This phrase is often misinterpreted to mean crimes and misdemeanors that go beyond the ordinary. A high crime must be worse than a regular one, right?


In fact, the phrase means crimes and misdemeanors committed while occupying a "high" office, e.g., the presidency or other high office.
I assumed a "high crime" was a felony.

ETA: Fascinating stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_c...d_misdemeanors

It does shed a rather different light on impeachment, although I'm not certain a sufficient number of the populace will change their view even if enlightened about the meaning of certain phrases as they were used in the 18th century.

However, it does suggest a possible way of getting to impeachment and conviction without an actual crime, in the sense of violation of statute, having been committed.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 25th September 2019 at 07:02 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2019, 08:30 PM   #164
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,816
If a President has no support in either Senate or House, it makes a lot of sense to be able to get rid of him, with or without him having committed anything rising to the level of a crime.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2019, 08:36 PM   #165
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,507
Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
This phrase is often misinterpreted to mean crimes and misdemeanors that go beyond the ordinary. A high crime must be worse than a regular one, right?


In fact, the phrase means crimes and misdemeanors committed while occupying a "high" office, e.g., the presidency or other high office.
Correct; the "high" refers to both the crimes and the misdemeanours i.e. high crimes and high misdemeanours.

The use of the word "high" in this context is a similar to how it was once used to describe treason in the UK & Empire. Ordinary or "petty" treason was against a superior to whom you owed allegiance, but high treason was specifically treason against the monarch.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2019, 11:13 PM   #166
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,749
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not pedantic argumentation. It's a fundamental principle of criminal justice. The state can't just go on vague fishing expeditions based on suspicion of wrongdoing. Even a search warrant requires a probable cause.
You are thinking Judicial Crime, Impeachment isn't based on a written law, but whatever the congress determines to be "High Crimes and Misdemeanors."

Quote:
Even a murder investigation requires a dead body and some articulable indications of foul play.
This is just factually incorrect. Numerous people have been convicted for murder without a dead body.

Quote:
Indeed, the whole point of grand juries is to make sure the state takes the time to actually nail down their justification of a specific crime and specific suspect, before going to town on that suspect's life.
And again, you are thinking of a criminal trial, which an Impeachment isn't.

Quote:
So no, as a practical matter, and as a matter of rule of law, you can't do anything about wrongdoing without first defining the wrongdoing you're trying to do something about.
Again totally incorrect for an Impeachment. What you need to do is show that an action or actions by the President are able to meet the level of High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

So what are High Crimes and Misdemeanors?

The short version is "Anything Congress agrees on."

However it is worth going back to the Federalist Papers and other documents of the time and seeing what the Framers of the Constitution thought when they included it in the CotUS.

Originally Posted by Alexander Hamilton: Federalist Paper 65, March 7th, 1788
Impeachment would involve the abuse of violation of some public trust.
Originally Posted by Alexander Hamilton: Federalist Paper 66, March 11th, 1788
The Constitution aims to make it as difficult as possible for them to combine any interest opposite to that of the Public Good.
Originally Posted by George Mason: The Avalon Project: Madison Debates, 20th July, 1787
A President could be Impeached should he have procured His appointment by the corrupting of his electors.
Originally Posted by Edmund Randolph: The Avalon Project: Madison Debates, 20th July, 1787
Impeachment could be brought about by a President abusing his power through Military Force, or Public Money."
Originally Posted by James Iredell: North Carolina Convention, July 1978
It is [The President's] duty to impart to the Senate every material intelligence he receives. If it should appear that he has not given them full information, but has concealed important intelligence which he ought to have communicated, then Impeachment is a remedy.
So the question now is, How does this president's actions compare?

Did he use his governmental powers to try and achieve a personal benefit that is against the Public Trust?

Did he try and gain Electors in a corrupt manner by getting a Foreign State to interfere in the 2020 Elections?

Did he abuse his power by using public money, set aside by Congress for the Ukraine, for the purpose of getting them to interfere by going after a political opponent?

Did he attempt to hold back or cover up any material information about the incident, or attempted to prevent the Senate being fully informed as to what occurred?

If you treat those questions honestly, and find yourself you having to say "Yes" to any one of them, then by the standards of the Founding Fathers, He should be Impeached, or the Constitution might as well be put in a shredder because it is no longer worth the paper it is written on.

Each and every member of the House and Senate swore an oath to uphold the Constitution. They didn't swear an oath to stand behind and support a criminal President.

And this is the thing I really don't get. It seems that the Republican members would rather ride this sinking ship down than to get rid of the cancer that is the current President and replace him with the VP. For me the scariest thing about this Impeachment process is not that some miracle will occur and voters who are fervently anti-Trump will suddenly switch back to supporting him because he gets impeached, but rather that the GOP will suddenly wake up and say "Hey we can get rid of this anchor" and suddenly it's Pence for 2020, because he might actually stand a chance of winning, and the thought of President Pence is way worse than Trump getting a second term if you ask me.

But hey...
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)


Last edited by PhantomWolf; 25th September 2019 at 11:15 PM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:11 AM   #167
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 13,300
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
District Attorneys are careful to limit their indictments to one crime at a time. Throwing the kitchen sink in a case is never a good idea.
A few days ago, I thought the kitchen sink was appropriate. Now, seeing how clear the shakedown of Ukraine is, never mind the kitchen sink.

I think they should include emoluments though. That's the pathway to Trump's tax return.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:19 AM   #168
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,870
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
District Attorneys are careful to limit their indictments to one crime at a time. Throwing the kitchen sink in a case is never a good idea.
Not when I was on grand jury. Sure all the crimes were typically related but certainly not individual.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:21 AM   #169
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,837
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
District Attorneys are careful to limit their indictments to one crime at a time. Throwing the kitchen sink in a case is never a good idea.
Not really. Stacking charges is a pretty common practice. At least it was when I was an immigration officer.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:23 AM   #170
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,468
This is not court people, it's a public relations trial.

This is going to be won or lost on public perception, not any type of "technically correct" legalese.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:23 AM   #171
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,870
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I assumed a "high crime" was a felony.
Of course not, I mean we know lots of felonies Trump has committed and the days that being involved in a real estate scam could possible count as an impeachable offence are so 25 years ago. Now we would be saying "So what if he scammed poeple out of millions, that is no reason to impeach a president so why even bother investigating white water".

So yea the rule of law is dead and we shall all rejoice.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:26 AM   #172
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,837
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is not court people, it's a public relations trial.

This is going to be won or lost on public perception, not any type of "technically correct" legalese.
True and stacking charges is a great way to sway public opinion. I hope they throw in the false weather report.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:44 AM   #173
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,021
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Not really. Stacking charges is a pretty common practice. At least it was when I was an immigration officer.
It's also common to pile on charges, to have bargaining chips for a plea deal.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:47 AM   #174
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,092
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
True and stacking charges is a great way to sway public opinion. I hope they throw in the false weather report.
I disagree. I think only the most severe charges should be pursued. Trump apologists are going to be desperate to paint this as a politically motivated hit job, and they will focus on the least consequential accusations as evidence of this. They will do everything possible to talk about weather maps or porn star payoffs to avoid talking about more serious charges of corruption and self-dealing.

I think the kitchen sink approach is not wise.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:51 AM   #175
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,021
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I disagree. I think only the most severe charges should be pursued. Trump apologists are going to be desperate to paint this as a politically motivated hit job, and they will focus on the least consequential accusations as evidence of this.

I think the kitchen sink approach is not wise.
Not necessarily. If there's only the one charge, it would look like Dems kept hunting until they found one, like Ken Starr. If you put in all the impeachable offences, a very clear pattern exists: Trump is a self-serving grifter, devoid of integrity.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 06:52 AM   #176
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,468
Okay look at it this way.

Don't think of it in terms of what "What can we legally prove Trump did?"

Think of it in terms of "What can we convince the most people Trump did and that it actually matters?"

The general public doesn't care all that much about political skullduggery or anything that can be sold or presented as such. "Well all politicians are dirty and do stuff like that, fiddle dee dee" will be invoked.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 07:00 AM   #177
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,021
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay look at it this way.

Don't think of it in terms of what "What can we legally prove Trump did?"

Think of it in terms of "What can we convince the most people Trump did and that it actually matters?"

The general public doesn't care all that much about political skullduggery or anything that can be sold or presented as such. "Well all politicians are dirty and do stuff like that, fiddle dee dee" will be invoked.
Yes, and if there's only the one charge, it'll be much easier to convince people that it isn't worthy of impeachment.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 26th September 2019 at 07:02 AM.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 07:07 AM   #178
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 85,100
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
On that note... everybody does now that Trump is probably going to do something really, really out there soon right?
YYyyyep.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 07:10 AM   #179
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,816
What is absolutely needed straight away is to lock down this extra-secret database in which the phone transcript was filed. And then the Top Secret equivalent of a Special Master needs to go through it and check for more scandals of Trump that have been covered up.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 07:13 AM   #180
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 20,468
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What is absolutely needed straight away is to lock down this extra-secret database in which the phone transcript was filed. And then the Top Secret equivalent of a Special Master needs to go through it and check for more scandals of Trump that have been covered up.
"Sorry but ah turns out Rose Mary Woods accidentally deleted them."
"Rose Mary Woods? Nixon's secretary? She's been dead for 15 years!"
"She is a very clumsy woman."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 07:16 AM   #181
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,021
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What is absolutely needed straight away is to lock down this extra-secret database in which the phone transcript was filed. And then the Top Secret equivalent of a Special Master needs to go through it and check for more scandals of Trump that have been covered up.
Excellent point, but unlikely to happen.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 07:55 AM   #182
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,901
Quote:
True and stacking charges is a great way to sway public opinion. I hope they throw in the false weather report.
Quote:
I disagree. I think only the most severe charges should be pursued. Trump apologists are going to be desperate to paint this as a politically motivated hit job, and they will focus on the least consequential accusations as evidence of this. They will do everything possible to talk about weather maps or porn star payoffs to avoid talking about more serious charges of corruption and self-dealing.
I think the kitchen sink approach is not wise.
Quote:
Not necessarily. If there's only the one charge, it would look like Dems kept hunting until they found one, like Ken Starr. If you put in all the impeachable offences, a very clear pattern exists: Trump is a self-serving grifter, devoid of integrity.
I think there is merit in both arguments here... piling on charges might make the public more aware of the depth of Trump's corrupt behavior, but it might also make the Democrats seem petty, and/or give Republicans easy targets to attack.

There is no way to know which strategy will be more effective, and if they pick one, there is no way to know if the chosen strategy was better than the alternative.

I can think of one other advantage that sticking to one incident (the Ukrainian whistleblower incident) has: It may help get senate republicans on board. Now, I recognize that republican congress critters are, by and large, scum bags. I do not expect them to act with any moral integrity. Nor do I expect them to vote to have Trump removed from office. But, it would still be beneficial if at least some voted along with the impeachment (rather than a strict vote along party lines).

However, republicans have been working hand-in-hand with Trump for years. If they include charges related to Stormy Daniels/campaign finance, or obstruction of justice, then those senators will have to justify why they worked with Trump for as long as they did. Sticking to just this latest issue will give them some cover, a way to say "This is unexpected...I vote for impeachment" without having to say "Well, I know he's been corrupt for years, but I still supported him for... reasons".
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 08:07 AM   #183
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,092
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

On that note... everybody does now that Trump is probably going to do something really, really out there soon right?
For sure. Trump never misses an opportunity to make a problem much worse through incompetence.

What exactly is he going to do? Any guesses?

I think there's a fair chance that Trump names this whistleblower and targets him/her and the lawyer for repercussions. I'm guessing DOJ already knows who it is, but Trump has not instinct for propriety. His instinct will be to attack, even though that will only makes things worse.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 26th September 2019 at 08:14 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 08:09 AM   #184
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,870
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
For sure. Trump never misses an opportunity to make a problem much worse through incompetence.
Yea you have to wonder if he and Giuliani are in a competition to see who can openly admit to him breaking the law without any consequence happening. It is a real game of one upmanship and I wonder who will raise the bar next?

Think we will see Trump on 5th Avenue any time soon?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 09:35 AM   #185
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,899
My opinion; the Dems should loudly and repeatedly proclaim the endless lists of things trump should be impeached for, then loudly and repeatedly say “here’s the few we’re focusing on in the actual impeachment. But remember all the other ****, cause the guy is scum.”
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #186
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,486
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
For sure. Trump never misses an opportunity to make a problem much worse through incompetence.
He keeps winning.

I'm not saying y'all are wrong on the moral issues, but in
terms of strategy and public relations, he seems to be doing ok.

Re the OP. You have to convince people that there's a very serious issue. Nothing that happened before the whistleblower scandal meets that standard. Don't try to dredge them up again in the hopes that things will be different this time.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 10:06 AM   #187
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,870
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
He keeps winning.

I'm not saying y'all are wrong on the moral issues, but in
terms of strategy and public relations, he seems to be doing ok.
Exactly we are not a country based on laws but a country ruled by the strong an charismatic, like the conservative utopia of Russia.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 10:14 AM   #188
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,021
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
On that note... everybody does now that Trump is probably going to do something really, really out there soon right?
Or already has, e.g. Donald Trump Actually Has 2 Whistleblowers To Worry About

Quote:
But there’s another whistleblower ― one with possible evidence that Trump tried to corrupt an Internal Revenue Service audit of his personal tax returns ― who has received relatively little attention.

...
The tax whistleblower, meanwhile, went straight to Congress ― specifically to the House Ways and Means Committee, which had sued the Trump administration for refusing to provide copies of the president’s tax returns in response to a formal request. Democrats say they need Trump’s returns to make sure the IRS properly enforces tax laws against the president.

But Ways and Means Chair Richard Neal (D-Mass.) is far less outspoken than Schiff, and his approach to the tax case has been cautious. He decided to stay focused on the lawsuit, using the whistleblower’s material to bolster that case.

Maybe having a long list of possible charges can serve as leverage for a plea deal: Just charge him on the Ukrainian shakedown and Senate Republicans can vote for it while pretending they didn't know about all the other stuff.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 10:15 AM   #189
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,901
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Quote:
For sure. Trump never misses an opportunity to make a problem much worse through incompetence.
He keeps winning.
He won the election. He has gotten some (but not all) of his policies enacted. But his victories have largely been accomplished through the efforts of others: election interference by Russians, complicity by the GOP. And his popularity is wallowing in the 40% range. When historians look back at his presidency, they will probably judge him to be among the worst to hold the office; not exactly a very good legacy to leave.

However, sometimes people do see their luck run out. Nixon won multiple elections. Until he lost the support of congress and the electorate and he resigned in disgrace. Manafort was 'winning' (in that he was financially successful and politically connected), and now he's in jail.

Past victories do not always indicate particular skill by the winner, nor do they indicate that such victories will continue indefinitely.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 10:17 AM   #190
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,032
Trump's rambling diatribe earlier today was fascinating to watch. The man is scared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iNKDn-tmfE

If it were such a 'perfect call' then why was it moved to a classified system as there was nothing about national security in that 'perfect call'?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 10:27 AM   #191
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,745
Trumps not going to be impeached. He has too much dirt on the people who want to impeach him. If he is impeached he will take most of the impeachers with him.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 10:29 AM   #192
WilliamSeger
Philosopher
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,021
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump's rambling diatribe earlier today was fascinating to watch. The man is scared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iNKDn-tmfE

If it were such a 'perfect call' then why was it moved to a classified system as there was nothing about national security in that 'perfect call'?
Trump thinks that abusing his powers is perfectly legal and normal, so it was likely others who made that decision.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 10:37 AM   #193
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,816
Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Trumps not going to be impeached. He has too much dirt on the people who want to impeach him. If he is impeached he will take most of the impeachers with him.
no, he hasn't.
He was certain there was dirt on Biden and Clinton but couldn't produce any. And before he pretend to have evidence on Obama.

If he had anything, he would have used it long ago.
In fact, he probably did in the case of Anthony Kennedy to get him to make space for Kavanaugh.

No, it's a Qanon dream that Trump has some hidden cards - Trump would never be able to hold something juicy back.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 10:39 AM   #194
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,901
Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Trumps not going to be impeached. He has too much dirt on the people who want to impeach him. If he is impeached he will take most of the impeachers with him.
Errr.... not really.

He may think he has dirt on people who want to impeach him, but most of the "evidence" is basically just figments of his imagination. And making up false claims about your opponents may go well with Trump supporters, but its not likely going to go far with the courts or law enforcement, who tend to rely more on evidence than baseless accusations.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 11:08 AM   #195
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,507
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
For sure. Trump never misses an opportunity to make a problem much worse through incompetence.

What exactly is he going to do? Any guesses?

I think there's a fair chance that Trump names this whistleblower and targets him/her and the lawyer for repercussions. I'm guessing DOJ already knows who it is, but Trump has not instinct for propriety. His instinct will be to attack, even though that will only makes things worse.
Agree. This is would be the expected behaviour from a malignant narcissist.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 11:41 AM   #196
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,032
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Trump thinks that abusing his powers is perfectly legal and normal, so it was likely others who made that decision.
I agree that it was likely others for that very reason. After all, according to Trump he 'has the right to do whatever (he) wants'. I think he's believed that his entire life due to his extreme narcissism.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 11:43 AM   #197
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,032
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
For sure. Trump never misses an opportunity to make a problem much worse through incompetence.

What exactly is he going to do? Any guesses?

I think there's a fair chance that Trump names this whistleblower and targets him/her and the lawyer for repercussions. I'm guessing DOJ already knows who it is, but Trump has not instinct for propriety. His instinct will be to attack, even though that will only makes things worse.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Agree. This is would be the expected behaviour from a malignant narcissist.
Agreed, and he's already doing that with his recent comment regarding how they used to handle spies in the old days.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 12:24 PM   #198
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,870
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed, and he's already doing that with his recent comment regarding how they used to handle spies in the old days.
Shouldn't that be snitches?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 12:39 PM   #199
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,032
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Shouldn't that be snitches?
I'm sure Trump thinks of them that way. Snitches need stitches.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2019, 01:48 PM   #200
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,126
Just reminder that we are not limited to the very open concept of "high crimes and misdemeanors", the full quote is:

Quote:
shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
Bribery is a stand alone constitutional grounds for removal. Was his extortion attempt Bribery? I don't know. But wouldn't you love to have the next three months of FoxNews dedicated to the definition of bribery.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:36 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.