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Tags donald trump , impeachment , rudy giuliani , Trump controversies

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Old 2nd October 2019, 03:50 PM   #241
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Okay, as I read the things, but IANAL, the obvious crime(s) is that Trump solicited a bribe from the President of Ukraine as well as illegally soliciting aid from a foreign nation in a US election. That last one being the kind of collusion Trump has been denying he did with Russia.

Am I too far from the mark on this?
No, and bribery is a listed reason for impeachment, alongside treason, separate and apart from "high crimes and misdemeanors."
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Old 2nd October 2019, 04:22 PM   #242
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I haven't been able to keep up with every development. What bribe did President Trump solicit?
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Old 2nd October 2019, 04:33 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I haven't been able to keep up with every development. What bribe did President Trump solicit?
"Bribery" was the wrong term. It was extortion. "Nice little military aid you've got there. Shame if something happened to it."
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Old 2nd October 2019, 04:37 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I haven't been able to keep up with every development. What bribe did President Trump solicit?
I was referring to the “favor” Trump was asking for as also being a bribe, apart from any other reasons it was illegal. A “if you rub my back, I’ll rub yours” situation.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 04:38 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"Bribery" was the wrong term. It was extortion. "Nice little military aid you've got there. Shame if something happened to it."
Thank you for the correction.

I haven't been able to keep up with every development. What extortion did President Trump threaten?

Or does your "quote" actually quote the threat in question?
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Old 2nd October 2019, 04:39 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"Bribery" was the wrong term. It was extortion. "Nice little military aid you've got there. Shame if something happened to it."
Didn’t Trump provide extra money to the Ukraine above what was allocated by Congress? The quid for Ukraine’s promised quo?
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Old 2nd October 2019, 04:39 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I was referring to the “favor” Trump was asking for as also being a bribe, apart from any other reasons it was illegal. A “if you rub my back, I’ll rub yours” situation.
What exactly was the bribe?

I'm expecting some evidence of personal profit for Donald Trump. You know: a bribe.

What's the evidence?
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Old 2nd October 2019, 04:41 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What exactly was the bribe?

I'm expecting some evidence of personal profit for Donald Trump. You know: a bribe.

What's the evidence?
Political dirt on Biden. Bribes don’t have to be money.

The evidence is the transcript provided by the White House and, arguably, Trump’s documented actions concerning Ukraine.
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Last edited by Upchurch; 2nd October 2019 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 05:28 PM   #249
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Seriously, I don't know why people are trying to make this so complicated (Well I know why the Republicans want it to be, but non-republications, it baffles me)

It is very simple.

The President used his office to solicit help from a foreign Government to damage the person who was his main political rival at the time.

It doesn't matter that he was asking it as a favour in return for selling Javelin missile, or holding back military funding, these are just aggravating circumstances.

I thought one commentator was very good in his commentary when he noted that "If you strongly believe that America needs to be protected by a wall to stop foreign intrusion, then surely you should believe equally, if not more strongly, that our Sovereign Elections should also be protected from Foreign Intrusion."

I don't think it should matter which party you support, having the leader of your country try and take out a political rival by asking a foreign leader to start a criminal investigation into them should turn your stomach and have you calling for that leader's head. This is the sort of BS that is found in totalitarian leaning third world countries run by strongmen dictators. It is not the sort of thing that should be occurring in leading western democracies, and if you refuse to acknowledge it, or condemn it, then you are just as complicit in the destruction of your democracy as the leader that did it.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 11:29 PM   #250
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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:04 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What exactly was the bribe?

I'm expecting some evidence of personal profit for Donald Trump. You know: a bribe.

What's the evidence?

No offense, but if you literally have not watched any news in over a week, which you clearly haven't, then why are you in a discussion thread about news?

He asked a foreign head of state to investigate another candidate for President. That in and of itself is extremely illegal. Full stop. He withheld military aid as in incentive for the foreign head of state to cooperate, it was not coincidence. He soon realized that (made to realize, of course), oh crap, that was a bad idea and granted the aid.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 03:16 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Political dirt on Biden. Bribes don’t have to be money.

The evidence is the transcript provided by the White House and, arguably, Trump’s documented actions concerning Ukraine.
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
No offense, but if you literally have not watched any news in over a week, which you clearly haven't, then why are you in a discussion thread about news?

He asked a foreign head of state to investigate another candidate for President. That in and of itself is extremely illegal. Full stop. He withheld military aid as in incentive for the foreign head of state to cooperate, it was not coincidence. He soon realized that (made to realize, of course), oh crap, that was a bad idea and granted the aid.
Please don't bite at the fringe reset.

"Oh, this scandal that's been going on for a week and generating discussions I've been actively participating in? I don't know aaanything about it, can you explain it to me from the beginning again, please?"
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Old 3rd October 2019, 04:27 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thank you for the correction.

I haven't been able to keep up with every development. What extortion did President Trump threaten?
So you haven't heard of this scandal AT ALL, then?
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Old 3rd October 2019, 08:12 AM   #254
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The Dems are saying they're not going to allow the proceedings to be stalled by stonewalling. The stonewalling will be considered as a charge of obstruction.

OK good. But why the concern over delays? Wouldn't these things be fast-tracked by the Supremes, ala Florida Bush v Gore?
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Old 3rd October 2019, 08:41 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The Dems are saying they're not going to allow the proceedings to be stalled by stonewalling. The stonewalling will be considered as a charge of obstruction.

OK good. But why the concern over delays? Wouldn't these things be fast-tracked by the Supremes, ala Florida Bush v Gore?
I think its a case where the supreme court can't be called on to rule on everything. And this sort of investigation is going to rely a lot on lots of subpoenas collecting evidence from multiple sources. If the Trump administration is uncooperative, each individual subpoena would probably have to go through the courts, then appeals, etc.

And even if you get the supreme court to rule that this stuff must be fast tracked, there is no guarantee the Trump administration would cooperate.

"Oh, the Supreme court said we must turn things over quickly. But we didn't think they meant turn over everything." (or something like that).
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:11 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Please don't bite at the fringe reset.

"Oh, this scandal that's been going on for a week and generating discussions I've been actively participating in? I don't know aaanything about it, can you explain it to me from the beginning again, please?"

True, but there may be other people viewing this thread that legitimately would listen to facts.

Originally Posted by 52 U.S. Code § 30121
It shall be unlawful for a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election

The "thing of value" is dirt on a political opponent. "Unlawful" means "illegal".

Trump begging the foreign head of state to investigate his political opponent is illegal in and of itself. Full stop.

The fact that Trump added a wink-wink bribe (the withholding of military aid during the illegal request) is not required in any way what-so-ever in this being illegal. Not. At. All. No matter how much the Republicans and Trump try and make it sound like it is required. (Though it is icing on the cake!!)
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:16 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
"Bribery" was the wrong term. It was extortion. "Nice little military aid you've got there. Shame if something happened to it."
Nation states engage in this kind of quid pro quo all the time, though. It's not actually unethical to predicate a friendly relationship, with diplomatic, economic, and military benefits, in part on mutual cooperation on issues of interest to one party or the other.
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:18 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nation states engage in this kind of quid pro quo all the time, though. It's not actually unethical to predicate a friendly relationship, with diplomatic, economic, and military benefits, in part on mutual cooperation on issues of interest to one party or the other.
No they don't. Quit trying to normalize atrocious behavior.
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:27 AM   #259
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The real question is which crimes to leave off.

Trump craps on America's face and tries to make it sound like he's doing us a favor. Sadly, his supporters likes the taste.

There is his obvious conspiracy with Russia. His wanton infringements of the Emoluments Clause. There is abuses of power too many to list. Such as his stonewalling and instructions of staff not to cooperate with the House. His not so subtle threats towards the whistleblower His extortion of Ukraine and his requests that not one, but two foreign countries investigate his political opposition.
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:28 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nation states engage in this kind of quid pro quo all the time, though. It's not actually unethical to predicate a friendly relationship, with diplomatic, economic, and military benefits, in part on mutual cooperation on issues of interest to one party or the other.
Yeah if you somehow overlook the circumstances that starkly differentiate Trump's obviously corrupt shenanigans.

It's not unlike defending Giuliani... What's the big deal with traveling to Ukraine? There's nothing wrong with that. Is there a named fallacy for this sort of filtering out the essence?
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Old 4th October 2019, 11:32 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post

It's not unlike defending Giuliani... What's the big deal with traveling to Ukraine? There's nothing wrong with that. Is there a named fallacy for this sort of filtering out the essence?
Moving the goalposts?
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Old 4th October 2019, 11:58 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nation states engage in this kind of quid pro quo all the time, though. It's not actually unethical to predicate a friendly relationship, with diplomatic, economic, and military benefits, in part on mutual cooperation on issues of interest to one party or the other.
Nation states act in ways that benefit each nation state. When one of the representatives of the nation states is asking for personal favors, that is where it becomes a problem.

Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on issues important to the US: Fine.
Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on his personal problems: Not fine.

If the Biden issue, which has been shown not to actually exist, was important at all to the US it would have been dealt with by now and through the proper channels. Because it was not important to the US Trump asked for help as a personal favor to help him personally, not the to help the US. Just like if Trump had asked the Ukraine to help with legal issues relating to one of his company's developments.
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Old 4th October 2019, 01:07 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Moving the goalposts?
Sort of but not quite. The goalpost wasn't situated in the playing field from the get-go.
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Old 4th October 2019, 01:30 PM   #264
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He could at least be censored for appearing orange on TV. Other than that he's a darn good President.
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:15 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Nation states act in ways that benefit each nation state. When one of the representatives of the nation states is asking for personal favors, that is where it becomes a problem.



Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on issues important to the US: Fine.

Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on his personal problems: Not fine.
Sending his personal lawyer hints at that possibility.
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:24 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Nation states act in ways that benefit each nation state. When one of the representatives of the nation states is asking for personal favors, that is where it becomes a problem.

Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on issues important to the US: Fine.
Trump asking Ukraine for assistance on his personal problems: Not fine.

If the Biden issue, which has been shown not to actually exist, was important at all to the US it would have been dealt with by now and through the proper channels. Because it was not important to the US Trump asked for help as a personal favor to help him personally, not the to help the US. Just like if Trump had asked the Ukraine to help with legal issues relating to one of his company's developments.
This.

We have proper channels established, but those would have caught this blatant abuse of power. So they were not used.

There is no reason to pretend there is a reasonable argument for Trump's actions being anything close to either normal or acceptable. There is no reason to pretend that it is reasonable to investigate Joe Biden on this.

Stop pretending Trump defenders are engaged in good faith, no matter how much some of them would like to be, they are not.
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:30 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
He could at least be censored for appearing orange on TV. Other than that he's a darn good President.
You and I have different definition of what constitutes a good President.
I don't consider spending all day watching Fox and Friends and tweeting "good".

I don't consider encouraging white supremacists like he did with the marches in Charlotte "good".
I don't consider trying to take health care away from 12 million people "good".

I don't consider destroying free trade with useless tariffs "good".

I don't consider consider weakening environmental protections "good".

I don't consider extorting allies so they will go after political rivals "good".

I don't consider putting children in cages "good".
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Old 4th October 2019, 04:10 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
He's done and said horrible things since day one without his disciples caring, but you have a point.

Though yes, as another poster said, the country is in a sorry state if the reason why "I'm witholding my government's money unless you dig up something about my political opponent" is terrible has to be explained to the masses. That's like banana republic-level corruption, or something I expect out of some Sub-Saharan failed state.
The problem really is that some people cannot distinguish between legal and moral, or more importantly, immoral and illegal.

The entire idea seems to be that if it is technically not illegal, the morals matter not a whit. That is, when one thinks about it really, that horrible attitude has historically given rise to things humanity would be better off not repeating.

Alas we appear doomed to repeat history, and not a nice history.
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Old 4th October 2019, 04:41 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The problem really is that some people cannot distinguish between legal and moral, or more importantly, immoral and illegal.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 4th October 2019, 05:25 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
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I AGREE
The democrats need to play this over and over, respond to Graham's every other tweet with this til the end of this year.
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Old 7th October 2019, 10:21 PM   #271
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As things stand now....
  1. making false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States in written answers for the office of Special Counsel's investigation into Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 United States presidential elections;
  2. interfering or endeavouring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the office of Special Counsel's investigation into Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 United States presidential elections;
  3. making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation had exonerated him with respect to the office of Special Counsel's investigation into Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 United States presidential elections;
  4. withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and and Congressional Committees;
  5. endeavouring to misuse the Department of State, an agency of the United States, for personal political gain;
  6. withholding both funds allocated to Ukraine and meetings at the White House, for the unlawful purpose of gaining an investigation into his political rivals;
  7. soliciting the aid of foreign Governments to interfere for the benefit of his personal re-election campaign in the United States 2020 Presidential Elections;

More might be coming re: Taxes and Emoluments
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Old 8th October 2019, 03:36 AM   #272
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For those trumpers waiting for the impeachment backlash to give Trump some possibility of being re-elected, a status update from the latest Washington Post poll:

Quote:
The findings indicate that public opinion has shifted quickly against the president and in favor of impeachment proceedings in recent weeks as information has been released about Trump’s efforts to pressure Ukrainian government officials to undertake an investigation into former vice president Joe Biden, a potential 2020 campaign rival, and Biden’s son Hunter.

Previous Post-Schar School or Post-ABC News polls taken at different points throughout this year found majorities of Americans opposing the start of an impeachment proceeding, with 37 percent to 41 percent saying they favored such a step. The recent revelations appear to have prompted many Americans to rethink their position

The poll finds that, by a margin of 58 percent to 38 percent, Americans say the House was correct to undertake the inquiry. Among all adults, 49 percent say the House should take the more significant step to impeach the president and call for his removal from office. Another 6 percent say they back the start of the inquiry but do not favor removing Trump from office, with the remainder undecided about the president’s ultimate fate. The results among registered voters are almost identical.

But don't worry too much. I'm sure the latest display of great and unmatched wisdom by your stable genius will have everyone forgetting about impeachment in a few days.

ETA: Another indicator that everything is just fine, no reason to panic:

Quote:
More than 8 in 10 Democrats endorse the inquiry and nearly 8 in 10 favor a vote to recommend that Trump be removed from office. Among Republicans, roughly 7 in 10 do not support the inquiry but almost 3 in 10 do, and almost one-fifth of Republicans say they favor a vote recommending his removal. Among the critical voting bloc of independents, support for the impeachment inquiry hits 57 percent, with 49 percent saying the House should vote to remove Trump from office.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 8th October 2019 at 03:46 AM.
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