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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , IRS incidents , Trump controversies , whistleblower incidents

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Old 5th October 2019, 11:22 PM   #1
The Great Zaganza
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Trump Tax Audit IRS Whistleblower scandal

The House might have to add to the Articles of Impeachment:

As we know, Trump has been hiding his tax returns, and is fighting tooth and nail to keep it that way.
On top of that, attempts of the House to learn more about the mandatory audit process of the taxes of the President and VP have been blocked even though they are clearly tasked with oversight and therefore entitled to see Trump's tax returns.

Now it seems clear that, analogous to the Ukraine scandal, a whistleblower in the IRS is trying to get a complaint to the House which alleges that pressure is being put on the IRS employees in charge of auditing Trump and Pence.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whistle...e-tax-returns/

https://www.salon.com/2019/10/04/irs...-pence-report/

This could be an even clearer case of Abuse of Power, one that even Americans dumbfounded by the Ukraine Scandal can understand.
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Old 6th October 2019, 05:09 AM   #2
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It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
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Old 6th October 2019, 05:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
Do you think the President should get a pass on crime and corruption because his opposition doesn't like him?

I get that there shouldn't be an easy path for politically motivated investigation and attacks and that we need checks against that kind of abuse. But if House democrats may have some desire to "get" Trump, that shouldn't insulate him from oversight or consequences.

"If your political rivals don't like you, you can't be investigated" does not seem like a rule the founders had in mind.
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Old 6th October 2019, 05:33 AM   #4
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Actually, it should insulate him to a certain extent. Everybody is equal before the law, and to pick someone in particular for extra heavy investigation of every last thing you can think of is not that.

It's clear this is a shooting gallery with many different guns, each thing seemingly reasonable on the surface (but these lies, designed to expose his taxes and embarrass him, don't even rise to that) but the sum total of one after another after another, expose it's about getting a political enemy.

The correct way to deal with policy differences you don't like, even ones you really, really, really, really, really, really, really don't like, is at the ballot box.

Hint: The same thing happened with Bill Clinton, but it was just limited to one thing, and they still refused the final step of removal from office. It should never have gotten that far.
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Last edited by Beerina; 6th October 2019 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 6th October 2019, 05:35 AM   #5
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The idea that the people on the top should get less, not more scrutiny is very alien to me.
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:15 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post

The correct way to deal with policy differences you don't like, even ones you really, really, really, really, really, really, really don't like, is at the ballot box.
This isn't about policy differences, its about the President trying to get foreign powers to undermine his political rivals and about him refusing to do what every President since Nixon has done and release his tax returns. That Trump has sought to benefit his businesses by abusing the office of President is more than mere suspicion, just look at the recent revelations about Prestwick and Turnberry. Trump is corrupt on an epic scale, not investigating him would be a dereliction of duty.
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:20 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him.
We don't know any details. At this moment, it's essentially an inkblot.

And yet you somehow know the person's motivation.
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:40 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
I like to think that the certain knowledge that ones political opponents will be keeping a very close eye on everything you do keeps normal politicians at least somewhat in check. Trump is not normal. His super power is that he has no fear of consequences because he's never had to suffer any.
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Old 6th October 2019, 07:14 AM   #9
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delete, wrong thread
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Old 6th October 2019, 07:39 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
Then it shouldn't be too much to ask for an example.
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Old 6th October 2019, 11:08 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him.
There is likely some truth to that.

The more important point is that it is also motivated by a lifetime of evidence pointing to shady business dealings.

If something merits investigation, it merits investigation. If there were evidence pointing to Biden corruption in Ukraine, it would merit investigation whether or not Trump was motivated by an attempt to get Biden, correct?
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Old 6th October 2019, 11:42 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
No it's not. Presidents and Presidential candidates have been regularly been releasing their tax returns for almost 50 years. And remember Trump originally said he would release them. Of course the opposition parties will go through them in detail. This is a check against corruption.

What this demonstrates is an unwillingness to be transparent. It suggests that he is hiding something. That doesn't necessarily mean it's illegal. But it doesn't have to be. If I have to release tax returns to get a mortgage for a home, why shouldn't a candidate seeking the highest office in the land be able to hide his?

If for no other reason than allowing voters the information needed for due diligence Trump and EVERY candidate should willingly hand them over.
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Old 6th October 2019, 11:50 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Actually, it should insulate him to a certain extent. Everybody is equal before the law, and to pick someone in particular for extra heavy investigation of every last thing you can think of is not that.
The thing is, you cannot have it both ways. By the very fact that you put yourself into the public eye (by being elected president) you make yourself open to close scrutiny. When you are the head of the major institutions of a democracy, your behaviour and actions must be of the highest order.

The fact that Trump is hiding his tax returns means that he has something to doesn't want his opposition to know about. Its very suspicious.

Every President going back to Nixon (bar Ford) has released their tax returns to Congress.

44-Obama (2000-15)
43-Dubya (2000-07)
42-Clinton (1992-99)
41-HW (1989-91)
40-Reagan (1981-87)
39-Carter (1977-79)
37-Nixon (1969-72)

Not only that, they have made them a matter of public record. You can see them all here...

https://www.efile.com/historic-1040-...nd-candidates/
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Old 6th October 2019, 12:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The thing is, you cannot have it both ways. By the very fact that you put yourself into the public eye (by being elected president) you make yourself open to close scrutiny. When you are the head of the major institutions of a democracy, your behaviour and actions must be of the highest order.

The fact that Trump is hiding his tax returns means that he has something to doesn't want his opposition to know about. Its very suspicious.

Every President going back to Nixon (bar Ford) has released their tax returns to Congress.

44-Obama (2000-15)
43-Dubya (2000-07)
42-Clinton (1992-99)
41-HW (1989-91)
40-Reagan (1981-87)
39-Carter (1977-79)
37-Nixon (1969-72)

Not only that, they have made them a matter of public record. You can see them all here...

https://www.efile.com/historic-1040-...nd-candidates/
Now you are just being unfair using such things as facts.
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Old 6th October 2019, 01:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Actually, it should insulate him to a certain extent. Everybody is equal before the law, and to pick someone in particular for extra heavy investigation of every last thing you can think of is not that.

It's clear this is a shooting gallery with many different guns, each thing seemingly reasonable on the surface (but these lies, designed to expose his taxes and embarrass him, don't even rise to that) but the sum total of one after another after another, expose it's about getting a political enemy.

The correct way to deal with policy differences you don't like, even ones you really, really, really, really, really, really, really don't like, is at the ballot box.

Hint: The same thing happened with Bill Clinton, but it was just limited to one thing, and they still refused the final step of removal from office. It should never have gotten that far.
Sorry, comparing Clinton to Trump couldn't be a more obvious false equivalence.

Designed to embarrass Trump? The guy couldn't be more corrupt if he tried. Are you dismissing Trump's serious abuse of office?
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Old 6th October 2019, 01:17 PM   #16
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Trump's obvious lies about his tax returns during the campaign should have been an enormous red flag. Then the rubes in this country elected him anyway (even though he had a couple million fewer votes than his opponent, but that's another story).

Once the initial shock had worn off a bit, I did my best to give him a chance. "Surely he'll release those tax returns prior to the inauguration," I thought. Inauguration came and went with no release.

That's why as early as January 2017 I was clamoring for an investigation into emoluments violation. We needed to track this joker's asset value in office because it was obvious then that he was planning to use that office to enrich himself at every turn.
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Old 6th October 2019, 01:20 PM   #17
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I really wish I could accept this story, but it doesn't meet the standard for accepting a claim.
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Old 6th October 2019, 01:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Hint: The same thing happened with Bill Clinton, but it was just limited to one thing, and they still refused the final step of removal from office. It should never have gotten that far.
Well, the Star report started as an investigation into the Clinton's pre Presidential financial affairs and ended up being about whether he'd lied about getting a blowjob from an intern so there was a bit of fishing going on.
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Old 6th October 2019, 05:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Well, the Star report started as an investigation into the Clinton's pre Presidential financial affairs and ended up being about whether he'd lied about getting a blowjob from an intern so there was a bit of fishing going on.
Yes, and remember that at one point they were fishing so much they started using the laughable 'Clinton Death List' as a source and stared investigating the Vince Foster suicide.
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Old 6th October 2019, 05:38 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Well, the Star report started as an investigation into the Clinton's pre Presidential financial affairs and ended up being about whether he'd lied about getting a blowjob from an intern so there was a bit of [nothing but] fishing going on.
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:09 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
Given that the first whistleblower report accuses Trump of doing just that, then actually investigating that report at least seems the minimal thing to do.
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:46 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
They've been non stop trying to get Obama and Clinton for years. It's a war.
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Old 6th October 2019, 07:29 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him.
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
There is likely some truth to that.

The more important point is that it is also motivated by a lifetime of evidence pointing to shady business dealings.

If something merits investigation, it merits investigation. If there were evidence pointing to Biden corruption in Ukraine, it would merit investigation whether or not Trump was motivated by an attempt to get Biden, correct?
Or maybe Trump committed an egregious violation and an apolitical employee felt it was their duty to blow the whistle, knowing full well it will bring a whole lot of trouble into their life such as being demonized by the POTUS, threats, legal fees, etc.

Alas, since I don't have a remote mind-reading device like Beerina's, I must wait for the facts to emerge.
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Old 6th October 2019, 09:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Well, the Star report started as an investigation into the Clinton's pre Presidential financial affairs and ended up being about whether he'd lied about getting a blowjob from an intern so there was a bit of fishing going on.
The difference is that with Clinton they threw out a heap of nets and came up with a minnow, whereas with Trump every time someone throws a line in the water they are hauling in a massive skipjack, but the captain of the boat is standing there busy screaming, "that's not a fish!"
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Old 7th October 2019, 10:44 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Trump's obvious lies about his tax returns during the campaign should have been an enormous red flag. Then the rubes in this country elected him anyway (even though he had a couple million fewer votes than his opponent, but that's another story).

Once the initial shock had worn off a bit, I did my best to give him a chance. "Surely he'll release those tax returns prior to the inauguration," I thought. Inauguration came and went with no release.

That's why as early as January 2017 I was clamoring for an investigation into emoluments violation. We needed to track this joker's asset value in office because it was obvious then that he was planning to use that office to enrich himself at every turn.
I'm still waiting for Melania's press conference (in two weeks) about her work as an illegal alien.
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Old 7th October 2019, 10:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him.
Much in the same way that law enforcement is motivated by an attempt to catch criminals, especially ones who brag about committing crime.
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Old 7th October 2019, 12:22 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Much in the same way that law enforcement is motivated by an attempt to catch criminals, especially ones who brag about committing crime.
Quite so. It's usually the guilty who moan and rage against the Law coming after them.

Have Trumpistas really convinced themselves that a *President* who has tens of investigations on several fronts going on about him is truly innocent and is only being harassed for no good reason whatsoever?
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Old 7th October 2019, 12:40 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
And hence a problem for using investigations to hurt his opponents see the thing with Biden. Mere covering up your own crimes was of course always fine with the constitution, hence why obstruction of justice is not an issue when the president does it.
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Old 7th October 2019, 12:51 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
ftfy
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Old 7th October 2019, 01:01 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
It's motivated by an attempt to get him. Now perhaps he does deserve getting, but we shouldn't be abusing the investigative power of government to do so using facetious lies about the sudden importance of this or that thing.

A good chunk of the Constitution orients around stopping those in power from using investigation to hurt their political enemies.

This is a feature against the encorachment of tyranny, not a problem to be worked around.
No, it's motivated by an IRS employee trying to do their job. The IRS is required to audit the President and VP. It's not political, any president has and will in the future be audited.

It's been the rule since before Trump was president. It became policy shortly after Watergate. https://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-008-004

Having a Treasury appointee make inquires as to it's status is inappropriate. Trying to influence might be illegal.
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Old 7th October 2019, 01:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Quite so. It's usually the guilty who moan and rage against the Law coming after them.

Have Trumpistas really convinced themselves that a *President* who has tens of investigations on several fronts going on about him is truly innocent and is only being harassed for no good reason whatsoever?
I think its more they don't care. The evangelicals cheerily ignore that Trump is a serial adulterer, the people who were so shocked about Hilary's email server could care less when Trump hands out classified data like party favours. The one who were disgusted about Obama being weak with foreign dictators are fine with Trump bending over backward to the likes of Saudi Arabia and so on and so forth. So long as he hands out tax cuts for the rich and stack the Supreme Court with people who will be happy to endorse rolling back the rights of women and enshrining religious(Christian) beliefs as overriding human rights they don't care about the rest.
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Old 7th October 2019, 02:07 PM   #32
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I still want a citation on which "chunks" of the Constitution limit investigative power.

Rulings on this in the courts seem to maintain the power of investigation also confers the power to determine the scope, the procedure, and determinations of validity in exercise of that power.

In this way "we the people" could theoretically elect candidates who would change those rules. The only thing Congress must do is produce the rules upon request and maintain a procedure for rule changes.

If you don't like the current rules, well...

...welcome to democracy.
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Old 7th October 2019, 03:39 PM   #33
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The tactic of being as vile a person as possible to argue everyone is biased against you is laughably dumb. It is only useful as virtue signaling that you're part of the 'in group'.

"You've committed far too many crimes!"

"You only think that because you're biased against me!"

"Because of the crimes!"
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Old 7th October 2019, 03:45 PM   #34
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The is the one investigation/reveal I've been most looking forward to. And the one I think he's least likely to get out of.

Nobody can mess with the IRS!
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Old 8th October 2019, 06:58 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
The is the one investigation/reveal I've been most looking forward to. And the one I think he's least likely to get out of.

Nobody can mess with the IRS!
Bull, the rich do it all the time, that is why the IRS doesn't audit them much, too much effort.

https://www.gq.com/story/no-irs-audits-for-the-rich
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Old 8th October 2019, 07:03 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Now you are just being unfair using such things as facts.
I think this is a derail. The question of whether Congress should see the returns is not the fundamental issue. The issue is whether there have been shenanigans in the audit process.

The whistleblower might give a reason for Congress to see the returns, but that would be a side effect of the allegation, not the meat of the issue.
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Old 8th October 2019, 07:05 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
No, it's motivated by an IRS employee trying to do their job. The IRS is required to audit the President and VP. It's not political, any president has and will in the future be audited.

It's been the rule since before Trump was president. It became policy shortly after Watergate. https://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-008-004

Having a Treasury appointee make inquires as to it's status is inappropriate. Trying to influence might be illegal.
Right.
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Old 8th October 2019, 07:07 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Bull, the rich do it all the time, that is why the IRS doesn't audit them much, too much effort.



https://www.gq.com/story/no-irs-audits-for-the-rich
It's probably tough to find fault with a tax return prepared by better accountants than you can afford to hire.
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Old 8th October 2019, 08:00 AM   #39
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's probably tough to find fault with a tax return prepared by better accountants than you can afford to hire.
At least not fault that the IRS could afford to litigate: the IRS is critically understaffed and underfunded despite being a net contributor to the Federal budget.
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Old 8th October 2019, 12:41 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
We don't know any details. At this moment, it's essentially an inkblot.

And yet you somehow know the person's motivation.

Item #4294 in a shooting gallery of attacks to get a political opponent, and I'm the one wondering of motivation?

What happened to the previous 4293 items people slammed their fists on the table and screamed were the world-ending important thing that, purely coincidentally I assure you, would finally get rid of their political enemy?

I'm not doubting any issue. I'm doubting the motivations of people involved, just as with Bill Clinton.
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