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Old 13th March 2019, 08:13 AM   #4121
The Don
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Meanwhile at 11 Downing Street....

Quote:
The chancellor has pledged to spend a £26.6bn Brexit war chest to boost the economy, if MPs vote to leave the European Union with a deal.

Philip Hammond vowed to free up more money to cut taxes and spend on public services in a "deal dividend".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47554876

Given that all treasury forecasts show that the best Brexit is still far worse for the UK economy than not leaving the EU - how much of a no-Brexit dividend could we have ?

£350m a week
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:18 AM   #4122
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Demagoguery for the win.


Demagoguery flourishes where wealth inequality is high.

Funny that.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:30 AM   #4123
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Meanwhile at 11 Downing Street....



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47554876

Given that all treasury forecasts show that the best Brexit is still far worse for the UK economy than not leaving the EU - how much of a no-Brexit dividend could we have ?

£350m a week
They've found the money tree again then.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:40 AM   #4124
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
They've found the money tree again then.
It was only ever lost w.r.t. poor and/or disabled people

For semi-willing political allies, top rate taxpayers and multinational corporates it was always there.
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Old 13th March 2019, 08:51 AM   #4125
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there are no stupid questions, so here it goes:

Why is Parliament voting on what seems like a very important matters rather late in the evening?
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:00 AM   #4126
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Here's a typical post from another board I frequent:



I come here for light relief and a reminder that I'm not the bonkers one
Well at least they understood what the consequences of a leave vote were, so that is pretty much higher than average.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:05 AM   #4127
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
there are no stupid questions, so here it goes:

Why is Parliament voting on what seems like a very important matters rather late in the evening?
They have a full day of debate in advance of the vote.

7pm is the standard voting time on Wednesdays.

(Divisions can take place at almost any time, but there are standard times that often end up being the default. Our parliamentary rules are pretty archaic.)
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:10 AM   #4128
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
there are no stupid questions, so here it goes:

Why is Parliament voting on what seems like a very important matters rather late in the evening?
Worm has given the correct answer.

Originally Posted by Worm View Post
They have a full day of debate in advance of the vote.

7pm is the standard voting time on Wednesdays.

(Divisions can take place at almost any time, but there are standard times that often end up being the default. Our parliamentary rules are pretty archaic.)
The cynical answer is that MPs have to fit in their various consulting gigs (at £1000s/hr), lunch with influential people at their clubs and/or House of Commons dining room and affairs with fellow MPs, researchers and hangers-on......
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:13 AM   #4129
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Here's a typical post from another board I frequent:



I come here for light relief and a reminder that I'm not the bonkers one
I kind of get that some people would rather than be poorer, but not run in any shape or form by the EU. I do not get that some people would happily see a return to the Troubles by imposing a hard border in Ireland.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:18 AM   #4130
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
They have a full day of debate in advance of the vote.

7pm is the standard voting time on Wednesdays.

(Divisions can take place at almost any time, but there are standard times that often end up being the default. Our parliamentary rules are pretty archaic.)
Thanks very much for your answer.

I was a bit surprised to hear this morning that the vote would take place at 2 Chicago time.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:43 AM   #4131
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It was only ever lost w.r.t. poor and/or disabled people

For semi-willing political allies, top rate taxpayers and multinational corporates it was always there.
And nurses who hold crazy ideas like working full time caring for people entitles them to luxuries like food and 'living indoors'.
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:48 AM   #4132
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Problem with Corbyn is he although he likes to waffle, he pretty much supports Britex..though for totally opposite reasons then the tories supporters. He thinks the EU is some sort of capitalist plot against the workers....
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Old 13th March 2019, 10:51 AM   #4133
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Worm has given the correct answer.



The cynical answer is that MPs have to fit in their various consulting gigs (at £1000s/hr), lunch with influential people at their clubs and/or House of Commons dining room and affairs with fellow MPs, researchers and hangers-on......
Still confused to why some on the left wing of Labor are pro leave. I understand though he waffles,Corbyn basically sees the EU as some sort of capitalist plot against the workers.

And that is the problem I see with UK politics as a whole. I don't see Labor as being much better then the Tories.
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:07 AM   #4134
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Still confused to why some on the left wing of Labor are pro leave. I understand though he waffles,Corbyn basically sees the EU as some sort of capitalist plot against the workers.

And that is the problem I see with UK politics as a whole. I don't see Labor as being much better then the Tories.
One of the main reasons is that the EU officially prohibits government subsidy/support of industries (though I'm sure Boeing has some trenchant views on the subject re:Airbus and there are allegations of other EU countries supporting their industries) and Jeremy Corbyn would like to be able to provide government support to "key" industries (he claims new, green, businesses but likely things like coal, steel and other old industries.

He's also against the free movement of people because he thinks that it's used to undermine British workers and drive down wages (despite all the evidence to the contrary).

Labour under Jeremy Corbyn is just as bad as the Conservatives with respect to Brexit - and I say that as a lifelong Labour supporter who was a member of the party for close to quarter of a century. There are other policy areas where they are far better (and under Corbyn, areas where they are even worse).
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:18 AM   #4135
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Problem with Corbyn is he although he likes to waffle, he pretty much supports Britex..though for totally opposite reasons then the tories supporters. He thinks the EU is some sort of capitalist plot against the workers....
From Badscience:


Namely the highlighted part
Originally Posted by liverpoolmiss
I got tired of waiting to see what would happen. So I ordered a Time Machine from Amazon (delivery time minus 1 hour, very good service) and popped to the future.

Unfortunately I got in a muddle over the dials and travelled across vast reaches in time. The world heated, then cooled, and ice ages came and went. I found our descendants. Every few years they were holding a Brexit referendum, squabbling bitterly. They no longer knew what a Brexit was or why it had started. They only knew this was their tradition. Delegations were sent off to seek the mythical land of EU to negotiate a deal. They returned, having found nothing but deserted launchpads from where great armadas of space arks had departed to the galactic colonies. The fierce debates were punctuated only by demands from a select few to issue a condemnation of Uruguay’s 1973 military coup and the suppression of the Socialist Party of Uruguay.

I’m afraid rats were extinct so haven’t come back with any good recipes, but I learned how to fricassee a cockroach.
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:25 AM   #4136
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Still confused to why some on the left wing of Labor are pro leave.
Trying to be populists by pandering to anti-immigration dribblers.
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Old 13th March 2019, 11:28 AM   #4137
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Trying to be populists by pandering to anti-immigration dribblers.
Or thinking that the EU is a capitalist project - which it is,; it's undoubtedly pro business. However the alternatives would be capitalism with fewer controls and less of a safety net.
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:27 PM   #4138
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So a narrow rejection of no-deal in a non-binding vote.

As "Nan" would say, " ******* typical"
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Old 13th March 2019, 12:53 PM   #4139
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Next step, ask for an extension, which frankly I hope the EU says no to. So then we are left with leave with no deal (since that vote is non binding) or we cancel Brexit.
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:09 PM   #4140
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As I've been saying for a while, no deal is a nailed on certainty IMO.
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:14 PM   #4141
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Next step, ask for an extension, which frankly I hope the EU says no to. So then we are left with leave with no deal (since that vote is non binding) or we cancel Brexit.
And it would be hard to blame them. In the last few days a number of major EU figures have been saying (I paraphrase): "**** extending art50, unless the UK has a plan for what to do during the extension"

Given that we've had no damn plan at all for all this time I can't see the EU allowing it. Maybe they've been driven to the point where they say "Up your arse!"
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:22 PM   #4142
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As I've been saying for a while, no deal is a nailed on certainty IMO.
Especially considering that the UK is still set to leave the EU in 16 days, no matter the ruckus of the past few days.

May has given the Commons until next wednesday to pass a deal, any deal, at which point she will seek a 3-month technical extension until June 30. If the Commons is unable to do so, she will have to seek a longer extension and the UK will probably have to participate the EU Parliamentary elections.
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:43 PM   #4143
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Especially considering that the UK is still set to leave the EU in 16 days, no matter the ruckus of the past few days.

May has given the Commons until next wednesday to pass a deal, any deal, at which point she will seek a 3-month technical extension until June 30. If the Commons is unable to do so, she will have to seek a longer extension and the UK will probably have to participate the EU Parliamentary elections.
Not sure parliament will approve any extension, and certainly not one past the Euro elections. The ERG have got their wish...
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:19 PM   #4144
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And it would be hard to blame them. In the last few days a number of major EU figures have been saying (I paraphrase): "**** extending art50, unless the UK has a plan for what to do during the extension"

Given that we've had no damn plan at all for all this time I can't see the EU allowing it. Maybe they've been driven to the point where they say "Up your arse!"
The term "Perfidious Albion" might be replaced by "Incompetent Albion".
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:25 PM   #4145
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I get a lot of my updates from Badscience:

Originally Posted by RobS
Originally Posted by liverpoolmiss
Lol. A Tory whip voted against the whip. While the Prime Minister voted against a motion she had said she basically supported.
from twitter: So it turns out that government whip Mike Freer will be allowed to remain a government whip despite breaking the three line whip he just imposed on himself.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:36 PM   #4146
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Brexit news: Czech prime minister tells Theresa May personally to hold second referendum and back remain

Looks like Brexit disaster area is great for our PM, because it takes away some attention from his own problems…
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:43 PM   #4147
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Meanwhile at 11 Downing Street....







https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47554876



Given that all treasury forecasts show that the best Brexit is still far worse for the UK economy than not leaving the EU - how much of a no-Brexit dividend could we have ?



£350m a week
We've just lost a trillion of assets, I'm sure that 350 a week will soon make that back up, in 50 years or so.....
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:44 PM   #4148
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Several cabinet ministers also voted against the three line whip, supposedly without repercussions.

Meanwhile the ERG has announced that if May schedules another meaningful vote, and promises to resign afterwards, they will vote for it. However, the Speaker has already announced that he is minded to disallow any more votes on the deal, as the House has already considered and voted on it, and therefore shouldn't be asked to do so once more.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:46 PM   #4149
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I kind of get that some people would rather than be poorer, but not run in any shape or form by the EU. I do not get that some people would happily see a return to the Troubles by imposing a hard border in Ireland.
I wonder of the age of those people, one would hope they'd be youngsters so never knew the Troubles however I suspect many will be older.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:48 PM   #4150
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Still confused to why some on the left wing of Labor are pro leave. I understand though he waffles,Corbyn basically sees the EU as some sort of capitalist plot against the workers.



And that is the problem I see with UK politics as a whole. I don't see Labor as being much better then the Tories.
It's not that strange when you consider that the initial push for joining the "common market" was for "capitalist" reasons, to make it easier for companies. (Not saying it's a good or sound reasoning!)
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:51 PM   #4151
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And it would be hard to blame them. In the last few days a number of major EU figures have been saying (I paraphrase): "**** extending art50, unless the UK has a plan for what to do during the extension"



Given that we've had no damn plan at all for all this time I can't see the EU allowing it. Maybe they've been driven to the point where they say "Up your arse!"
Don't know but May's plan has been working well beyond what anyone could believe... she's still the PM!
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:53 PM   #4152
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Brexit news: Czech prime minister tells Theresa May personally to hold second referendum and back remain

Looks like Brexit disaster area is great for our PM, because it takes away some attention from his own problems…
And more analysis from badscience

Originally Posted by tenchboy
Originally Posted by badchemist2
Can someone summarise what the **** is going on for people who still care but can't keep up with the constant flow of incompetent politics.
The will of The People has deemed we shall step off a cliff.
Parliament are employing Divination-by-Voting to decide which alternative to Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation we should be subject to during the downward fall.
Originally Posted by liverpoolmiss
The govt proposed a motion.

But the wording of it was amended, via the Spelman amendment.

So the govt didn't like the revised wording of their motion.

So for the actual main vote of the govt motion, the govt decided to vote against. They tried to vote down their own motion due to the amended wording.

Some cabinet ministers rebelled and voted for the motion, or abstained. So the motion with it's revised wording passed by 321-278.

A defeat for the govt because the govt motion was passed against the govt wishes.

The **** BBC keeps getting confused. Their journalists keep saying these Tory rebels voted against the motion. In fact they voted for the motion and against the govt.
Also

Originally Posted by tenchboy

You know how when you go up the Health Centre cos you've got an arse like a Chocolate Soda Syphon?
Well they're voting on whether you should sit on a blue chair or a red chair whilst they see if an appointment can be fixed for next thursday or whether it might have to be the monday after that.
My colleagues are astounded at what's happening.

Someone else said that they are never going to suffer from imposter syndrome again
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:56 PM   #4153
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What they have to push for is a binding vote on No Deal, the idea that it can be rejected by the house but still happen is ludicrous. If the EU rejects an extension then they have to rescind article 50.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:58 PM   #4154
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
What they have to push for is a binding vote on No Deal, the idea that it can be rejected by the house but still happen is ludicrous. If the EU rejects an extension then they have to rescind article 50.
Yes, but if there is no alternative - the default will still happen.
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:59 PM   #4155
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We've just lost a trillion of assets, I'm sure that 350 a week will soon make that back up, in 50 years or so.....
Not our assets. The assets of the people who own them. If the banks are losing business Brexit is going to be a disaster for lapdancers and cocaine dealers.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:04 PM   #4156
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Several cabinet ministers also voted against the three line whip, supposedly without repercussions.

Meanwhile the ERG has announced that if May schedules another meaningful vote, and promises to resign afterwards, they will vote for it. However, the Speaker has already announced that he is minded to disallow any more votes on the deal, as the House has already considered and voted on it, and therefore shouldn't be asked to do so once more.
JRM was basically asking the attorney general the other day what would happen if we just stop adhering to the withdrawal agreement. I fear their new plan is to pass it if they have to and then immediately start campaigning to withdraw from it.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:05 PM   #4157
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
JRM was basically asking the attorney general the other day what would happen if we just stop adhering to the withdrawal agreement. I fear their new plan is to pass it if they have to and then immediately start campaigning to withdraw from it.
Because nothing says "reliable future trading partner" than ripping up treaty obligations.
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Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:07 PM   #4158
KDLarsen
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
JRM was basically asking the attorney general the other day what would happen if we just stop adhering to the withdrawal agreement. I fear their new plan is to pass it if they have to and then immediately start campaigning to withdraw from it.
I saw a bit of that, something about the Vienna Convention governing treaties and how countries could unilaterally withdraw from such treaties.

Fair play to AG Cox, he said that while it was doable, the circumstances under which it could be done were so extreme, and the reputation of a country withdrawing by such a mechanism would be so shot, he seriously wouldn't recommend doing it.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:08 PM   #4159
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't know but May's plan has been working well beyond what anyone could believe... she's still the PM!
I think her aim is to be remembered as the most useless PM in history. She's probably done enough to dethrone the previous holder, Cameron. However, she's got to think of future incompetents in particular the next PM which is likely to be either Johnson or Corbyn who are both gifted in the uselessness stakes. Still, so far I think she's played a blinder in securing her place in history.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:11 PM   #4160
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Have I got this right?

We can have vote after vote on Theresa's deal until it goes through, but a second referendum now the outcome of leaving is "clearer" would be undemocratic?
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