Today's Republicans are not "conservatives".

[Thermal]

Re: the thread title. Blue Dogs read it and sigh despondently

[TragicMonkey]

Since when did "identifying problems that need to be solved" equal "being a victim"/"victimhood"/*screeching rage noises* ? I'm in IT, it's my job to identify problems then work to solve them. Pretending there are no problems won't fix them: it prevents them from being fixed.

If you want to argue that a given problem X isn't actually a problem, feel free. But it's stupidly childish and counterproductive to cast the people identifying X as a problem as enjoying "victimhood". Either it's a problem or it isn't, either it's worth solving or it isn't. That is the subject for debate, not what you feel might be the feelings of the person pointing out a problem!

[The Great Zaganza]

War on Christmas is something that clearly needs solving, given the panic we hear about it Every... Single... Year.
Also,drag shows and books about LGBTQ topics are clearly existential Problems, given the attention some people are paying it.
Clearly more important than Climate Change.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

War on Christmas is something that clearly needs solving, given the panic we hear about it Every... Single... Year.
Also,drag shows and books about LGBTQ topics are clearly existential Problems, given the attention some people are paying it.
Clearly more important than Climate Change.

Well those other things make me feel "icky" now whilst the effects of climate change affect other people.

[Donal]

And we need Real Christmas. With White Santa. And White Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. Not woke Christmas with a bunch of dark-skinned people.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

There is a difference: people on the Left generally have grievances about REAL things like poor pay or blatant racism.

On the Right, we have the Glenn Beck generation, who cry fake tears about important things like "the War on Christmas" or "Wokism" - or any Right for any Group that isn't Christian White.
Or you you deny that the ENTIRE Trump campaign is based on nothing but being the victim of the (((Deep State / NWO / Democrats / Immigrants))) ?

If white supremacy is challenged or called out, those white supremacists suddenly become victims of the libruls, people of color and immigrants.

[Suddenly]

The core disconnect is in defining conservativism.

If we go with

Quote:

Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

then yes, today's Republicans are extremely conservative. It brings things into pretty clear focus.

If we go with the rhetoric used by the GOP since Reagan then it is a little muddier.

IMO it is obvious those policy positions (small government, constitutional originalism, etc.) were just tools used in service of the above quoted proposition. The GOP mostly just paid lip service to these policy principles anyway. GOP presidents ballooned the debt; Bush v. Gore, the law and order party enabling corporate lawlessness, etc.

Conservativism has always been feudalist. We are just getting past the point where their using Adam Smith as a mask isn't all that effective or necessary.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally Posted by Donal

And we need Real Christmas. With White Santa. And White Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. Not woke Christmas with a bunch of dark-skinned people.

I noticed in this year’s astoundingly boring Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Mrs. Claus was black (as far as I’m aware, a first). If the store were ever to go full non-white for the fictitious toy-making family, I can’t conceive of the decibel level of the resultant right-wing screeching. The shock waves would no doubt knock sleighs and reindeer from the skies.

[Donal]

You haven't seen the latest outrage regarding Target, I'll take it.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

I noticed in this year’s astoundingly boring Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Mrs. Claus was black (as far as I’m aware, a first). If the store were ever to go full non-white for the fictitious toy-making family, I can’t conceive of the decibel level of the resultant right-wing screeching. The shock waves would no doubt knock sleighs and reindeer from the skies.

If we are getting real about the toy makers, shouldn't they be represented by East Asian sweatshop workers and child labor? They'd look a little like elves with hungry eyes.

[Donal]

Well, that got dark

[Thermal]

Not nearly as dark as our blood stained souls from the yada yada yada my kid wants a new cel phone for Christmas.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Donal

You haven't seen the latest outrage regarding Target, I'll take it.

Fox is helping Trump prove that FAKE NEWS is a real thing:

From your link:

Quote:

Gaines responded:

Back in 2005, Target banned the word “Christmas,” the phrase “Merry Christmas.” Employees weren’t allowed to say it,"

Snopes:
"Target prohibited store employees from using the phrase "Merry Christmas" with customers: False."

Quote:

no merchandise was allowed to have the word ‘Christmas’ on it because it implied that, you know, the idea of Christ exists.

FALSE. Merchandise had 'Christmas' on it. What didn't have the word on it were the signs and promotional material:

"Target eschewed use of the word "Christmas" in its promotional material at the start of the 2005 holiday season: True." (Snopes)

This is common for many retailers because 3 holidays coincide in December making 'Holidays' advertising and signage more useful.

"We do note that this year [2005] a confluence of several holidays occurs in late December: Hanukkah begins on Christmas Day and ends just after New Year's Day, and Kwanzaa takes place during that same period." (Snopes)

Quote:

Now, I believe that’s still in effect, yet they’re allowed to have Black, disabled Santa and gay nutcracker? It doesn’t make sense.

FALSE: "Target responded to public pressure during the second week of December 2005 and began using the word "Christmas" in its promotional material: True." (SNOPES)

ALLOWED to have? Does Gaines believe "gay" nutcrackers come alive at the stroke of midnight and crawl into the children's bedrooms to 'groom' them?

A black Santa in a wheelchair could be very real: A racist right-wing nutcase shooting a Black Santa in a mall for daring to have white children on his lap and paralyzing him is entirely plausible in MAGA World.

[ZiprHead]

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

I noticed in this year’s astoundingly boring Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Mrs. Claus was black (as far as I’m aware, a first). If the store were ever to go full non-white for the fictitious toy-making family, I can’t conceive of the decibel level of the resultant right-wing screeching. The shock waves would no doubt knock sleighs and reindeer from the skies.

There are people that still watch that crap???

[Regnad Kcin]

Well, Mr. Hoyt E. Toity, there are some people who enjoy sprinkling a little tradition on their holidays, regardless of apparent quality. Comfort food isn’t always nutritious.

But yeah, the MTDP is pretty thin on entertainment value, especially when compared to the infinitely more visually-splendiferous Tournament of Roses Parade.

[Donal]

I'm trying to make watching March of the Wooden Soldiers a tradition in my house. My wife has no interest in it though.

[Venom]

I'd like all Republican voters to vote on this question, just for the record.

If you could make Trump KING for life instead of going ahead with this election, could get rid of CNN, get rid of human rights to speed up deportations and imprisonment/executions, would you? Or would you rather keep things as they are and let things happen as they will under the current system?

First and foremost I'd like all those MAGATs that still go to his rallies to answer that. Even those people can differ widely in why they still back Trump. I'm curious what they'd choose.

At this point we're trying to find out who actually believes in liberal democracy and basic open society stuff and who thinks the Founding Fathers were WOKE.

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by Venom

I'd like all Republican voters to vote on this question, just for the record.

If you could make Trump KING for life instead of going ahead with this election, could get rid of CNN, get rid of human rights to speed up deportations and imprisonment/executions, would you? Or would you rather keep things as they are and let things happen as they will under the current system?

First and foremost I'd like all those MAGATs that still go to his rallies to answer that. Even those people can differ widely in why they still back Trump. I'm curious what they'd choose.

At this point we're trying to find out who actually believes in liberal democracy and basic open society stuff and who thinks the Founding Fathers were WOKE.

You're not going to get that information by asking. This isn't only because the question is likely to be insulting or seen as a way to attack rather than illuminate, but also because of the limits of how good people are at predicting their own future actions and/or current motivations.

Forgetting this happens a lot with polling and studies of many types; we like to ignore the limitations. I'm sure we are all aware of cases of this for studies presented in media where the latter claims things the former wasn't even studying.

It's even already happened in this thread iirc. People will say that 'conservatives understand liberals better than liberals understand conservatives' which is not what the oft cited study could conclude. It is that conservatives were better at predicting the self described motivations of liberals than the other way around.

How many Republicans believed they would vote for a New York city con man? They did. How many say they'd vote for someone who tried to end our democracy and has disdain for the Constitution? Who insults the military and tries to take away healthcare? Most are going to.

When you ask, 'how many want a king,' most people and most conservatives are going to, honestly from their point of view, answer, 'of course not!' but it won't be a good predictor of if they're going to take the steps to get in effect exactly that. Some will stick with the 'look what you made me do!' but a lot won't even think enough about it to require that rationalization.

Asking what they would do when political violence starts and our country is endangered by their allies isn't just not a good way to find that out, it's redundant. What they are doing now is exactly that. Wanting to know their motivations is secondary to observing their actions.

[ahhell]

Tyr_13 is not wrong. Go back to 2014 and poll republicans on what they believe, and you'd get very different answers from now. The most obvious thing is Russia. The graph of polling over a 4 year period around 2016 showed Republicans going from strongly suspicious of Russia to having positive feelings towards Russia. Same is true of a ton of issues that Trump wasn't aligned with the mainstream republicans on.

It is pretty clearly a trumpist party now.

I just ckecked, attitudes towards Russian have trended negative since 2016, still a pretty funny chart.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...a-as-an-enemy/
Starting in about 2015, Dems started getting more negative towards Russia and Reps got more postive.

[Venom]

I remember Secretary Clinton's "Russian reset" nonsense openly criticized by Republicans.

Now Trump's soft approach towards Russia is seen as bridging a divide.

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by ahhell

Tyr_13 is not wrong. Go back to 2014 and poll republicans on what they believe, and you'd get very different answers from now. The most obvious thing is Russia. The graph of polling over a 4 year period around 2016 showed Republicans going from strongly suspicious of Russia to having positive feelings towards Russia. Same is true of a ton of issues that Trump wasn't aligned with the mainstream republicans on.

It is pretty clearly a trumpist party now.

I just ckecked, attitudes towards Russian have trended negative since 2016, still a pretty funny chart.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...a-as-an-enemy/
Starting in about 2015, Dems started getting more negative towards Russia and Reps got more postive.

I always am boggled by that.

Can you imagine what the GOP response would have been in 2016 if it was reported that the people of Russia overwhelmingly supported Hillary Clinton? They would have been howling from the rafters about how this showed how awful she was. They would use it to claim that she is nothing but a Russian tool.

Heck, Russia overwhelmingly did NOT support Clinton, and they still called her a Russian tool. That's why Russians don't like her so much, obviously.

But Russia loves Trump, and that is ignored.

This is not Ronald Reagan's GOP, that's for sure.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Since when did "identifying problems that need to be solved" equal "being a victim"/"victimhood"/*screeching rage noises*

Since the vague non-traditional and (mostly) younger conversative side of things got influxed (that needs to be a word) by the edgy nihilistic perpetual 13 year olds who's entire personality is "The world sucks and it is never going to get better and you're a lame loser if you think otherwise or have any hope that it will or desire for it to get better." and "I'm awful so to compensate I'm going to assume that anyone good is really lying and deep down inside is as awful as me." types.

You have to understand TM for the first time (on a timeframe worth talking about here) there is meaningful (no I can't put an exact X percent of Y number on it) number of people DO NOT WANT THINGS TO GET BETTER in a very real sense.

They don't won't things to get worse because they think they'll be some statistical outlier where things we'll get better for them, that's just good old fashioned selfishness we're used to that. No this is something much worse. They want the ship to sink and for EVERYONE to go down with it. It's what happens when you mix old school GOP hatred with burnout Gen-x edgy nihilism.

Mainly conservative (and yes a much, much, much, much smaller but equally annoying percentage of liberals) have put so much of their personal identity into a vague, pessimistic "Everything is going to crap, we can't stop it, and most important I WAS THE I TOLD YOU SO GUY, that's right I knew everything was going to hell in a handbasket first and I want you to acknowledge that damnit!" persona that the idea of things either things getting better or people wanting things to get better or hell even vague "Wow it sure would be nice if things got better" is such a deep, stabbing insult to their core personal identity that it physically causes them pain.

Again look at everyone of their arguments.

- Everybody who claims to or aspire to be good is really faking it/lying/hiding some ulterior motive/etc and are actually worse then just proudly be proudly evil and wrong because trying to do good is inherently pretentious and they need to be taking down a peg.

- When I hurt you and you respond, I win and me hurting you becomes your fault and the only respond allowed to my evil is to ignore me and let me keep doing it because if you give me any attention it becomes your fault I'm doing it.

- Trying to be good and failing to achieve some 100% level of perfect good makes you a hypocrite and it's better to just be evil because then you're not committing the sin of being a hypocrite or "not being as good as you think you are." Be Hitler but don't be an environmentalist who doesn't live in a solar powered cardboard box or was caught on video not driving in the carpool line for 30 seconds ten years ago.

These are not how people who want anything to get better, even a narrow minded "I've got mine, screw you" version of get better, think.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

I always am boggled by that.

Can you imagine what the GOP response would have been in 2016 if it was reported that the people of Russia overwhelmingly supported Hillary Clinton? They would have been howling from the rafters about how this showed how awful she was. They would use it to claim that she is nothing but a Russian tool.

Heck, Russia overwhelmingly did NOT support Clinton, and they still called her a Russian tool. That's why Russians don't like her so much, obviously.

But Russia loves Trump, and that is ignored.

This is not Ronald Reagan's GOP, that's for sure.

Like there has been serious, legit arguments that what really broke the "American Right" is the fall of USSR and the end of the Cold War and the constant threat of Communism.

Much like how the only reason "The Religious Right" is a thing is abortion. Take away that as a central boogeyman for them all to focus on and those groups would never get along well enough to be a core, central demographic in the way they are.

[ahhell]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Like there has been serious, legit arguments that what really broke the "American Right" is the fall of USSR and the end of the Cold War and the constant threat of Communism.

Much like how the only reason "The Religious Right" is a thing is abortion. Take away that as a central boogeyman for them all to focus on and those groups would never get along well enough to be a core, central demographic in the way they are.

This is true, even on abortion, now that Roe V Wade is overturned, the folks that fought for it to happen can't agree on what to do next.

Regarding the change in attitudes toward Russia in 2016, the reverse happend among Dems. Around 2015 they started getting more and more negative attitudes towards russia. That's part of the reason the trend line is so funny. Dems mostly positive and Reps mostly negative right up until 2016. then it switches and the trend lines cross.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by ahhell

Regarding the change in attitudes toward Russia in 2016, the reverse happend among Dems. Around 2015 they started getting more and more negative attitudes towards russia. That's part of the reason the trend line is so funny. Dems mostly positive and Reps mostly negative right up until 2016. then it switches and the trend lines cross.

That's entirely consistent with the growth of Putin's authoritarianism in Russia. Today's so-called Republicans are all-in for authoritarianism.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

That's entirely consistent with the growth of Putin's authoritarianism in Russia. Today's so-called Republicans are all-in for authoritarianism.

I think that's true. The more Trump behaved like an authoritarian and praised Kim (falling in love!) and Putin (believing Putin denial of election interference over our Intelligence agencies), the more the right loved their Orange Jesus.

[ahhell]

The thing not right about that is its not at all in line with Putins authoritarian behavior, he was no more authoritarian in 2016 than he was in 2010, 2005, etc. It also doesn't explain why there's actually not much difference between dems and reps today, most all americans think he's a bad guy now.

The switch is much less pronounced with the Dems and Putin is definitely a bad guy, but there switch in both groups is clearly related to Trump more than it is to Putin.

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by ahhell

The thing not right about that is its not at all in line with Putins authoritarian behavior, he was no more authoritarian in 2016 than he was in 2010, 2005, etc. It also doesn't explain why there's actually not much difference between dems and reps today, most all americans think he's a bad guy now.

The switch is much less pronounced with the Dems and Putin is definitely a bad guy, but there switch in both groups is clearly related to Trump more than it is to Putin.

A. You're not wrong, and as much as I'm arguing that human's actions are in aggregate driven less by practical or even ideological grounds and more by partisan or tribal considerations than any of us would like, it's going to be a mix of factors for just about anything. How much of each of them varies by situation and group, especially between self-selecting groups.

B. For some time it appeared to some (a lot of it misplaced optimism) that while Putin was going to keep being a vile authoritarian internally (an assassinating expats internationally), that he was turning towards economic competition internationally. That is, leveraging gas sales and arms exports, etc rather than being a territorial threat. They thought Putin could be likewise leveraged to back off the international assassination and the like because of greater economic ties. (This was me; I was wrong.)

C. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.

D. Russia attacked the 2016 US elections.

Regardless of how authoritarian Putin and Russia was during the time, the impact on 'the West' and the US specifically was much less. Actions during the time brought both attention and actual impacts. This is consistent with the people of the US having good reason to lower their opinion of Russia in that time period regardless of party, yet only one went down. This is consistent with the GOP liking them more the more aware of Russia's authoritarianism and attacks on the US elections they become.

Not that this justifies the initial Democratic views of Russia in that time period however...

[dirtywick]

well i thought they sent ron johnson to russia on the 4th of july that time to figure some of that out. came back a changed man. makes you wonder if there's some other factor at play here.

but you don't have to wonder long because it's pretty obvious why they love russians so much isn't it

[sir drinks-a-lot]

This thread turned out just as amazingly as I thought it would given the nuanced and well thought out OP.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

This thread turned out just as amazingly as I thought it would given the nuanced and well thought out OP.

See? No argument, no counter argument, no defense of position, no explanation of position, no request for information from the other side just a snarky quip about how funny he thinks everything is. Nothing that says what he wants, what he thinks, what goals he's actually trying accomplish.

Just a snarky, drive by quip.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

See? No argument, no counter argument, no defense of position, no explanation of position, no request for information from the other side just a snarky quip about how funny he thinks everything is. Nothing that says what he wants, what he thinks, what goals he's actually trying accomplish.

Just a snarky, drive by quip.

"Nanny nanny", declares the sage in his wisdom, "boo-boo. Stick your head in doo-doo." This is the political philosophy of a great many people.

[JoeMorgue]

And that's the other core part of it, glibness. Detached glibness.

Another they all seem to hate is anyone actually caring about anything.

[Donal]

That's why I just put them on my ignore list. I just checked my list and about 40% of the people on it end up banned anyway. Another chunk haven't posted in over a decade. It really helps the experience here.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by ahhell

I know there is nothing I can say that will make sense to progressive but....

Its clear progressives hate conservatives, I don't know why progressives would think a conservative would ever vote for the candidate that progressive prefer when it clear progressives hate them.

You can't for second imagine that some Voters voted for Trump despite is ********** for some reason other than his **********, like maybe he at the very least doesn't obviously hate them.

Perhaps these conservatives might find being less hateful to be an effective counter to their perception of being hated?

Nah.

It's the only way they've found to get the attention they crave. Like a toddler who has discovered that throwing tantrums gets Mommy to watch them.

[Donal]

Projection is the lifeblood of conservatism.

[gnome]

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Perhaps these conservatives might find being less hateful to be an effective counter to their perception of being hated?

Nah.

It's the only way they've found to get the attention they crave. Like a toddler who has discovered that throwing tantrums gets Mommy to watch them.

It's been tried, the whole "Compassionate Conservative" bit. The left didn't believe it and the right wanted more cruelty. So of course it didn't play well.