Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

 International Skeptics Forum Continuation Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

 Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
 Tags Brexit

 20th May 2020, 06:07 AM #3281 Darat Lackey Administrator     Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 99,125 Originally Posted by Vixen No need to over-think things. Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought. Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea. Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area. It is all very simple! Only for old people - apart from miles kids and anyone under the age of what now 45 thinks in terms of metric units. And only a statistical insignificant number of those would be able to tell you how many yards are in a mile. And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit. __________________ I wish I knew how to quit you
 20th May 2020, 06:11 AM #3282 Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles     Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,948 Originally Posted by Darat And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit. Since I wouldn't bother expecting an accuracy better than about 10% when estimating distances, I tend not to bother which I use. Dave __________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
 20th May 2020, 06:20 AM #3283 shuttlt Philosopher   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,317 Originally Posted by Vixen No need to over-think things. Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought. Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea. Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area. It is all very simple! I propose we use English cubits. 6 feet = 4 cubits.
 20th May 2020, 06:38 AM #3284 Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles     Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,948 Originally Posted by shuttlt I propose we use English cubits. 6 feet = 4 cubits. Yeah, they're really handy for when you need to calculate to base 4.5. Dave __________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
 20th May 2020, 06:52 AM #3285 shuttlt Philosopher   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,317 Originally Posted by Dave Rogers Yeah, they're really handy for when you need to calculate to base 4.5. Dave It's convenient when you need to calculate the volume of, say, a body of water that's 6 feet x 4 cubits x 1 fathom.
 20th May 2020, 07:04 AM #3286 Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles     Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,948 Originally Posted by shuttlt It's convenient when you need to calculate the volume of, say, a body of water that's 6 feet x 4 cubits x 1 fathom. I make that 611.7 hectare-microns. Dave __________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
 20th May 2020, 07:25 AM #3287 shuttlt Philosopher   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,317 Originally Posted by Dave Rogers I make that 611.7 hectare-microns. Dave Decimal fractions are a continental perversion. Last edited by shuttlt; 20th May 2020 at 07:29 AM.
 20th May 2020, 08:17 AM #3288 Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 50,056 Originally Posted by Earthborn Cuneiform numerals are super simple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylo...iform_numerals This system is referred to as "base 60", but it's really not. Numbers up to 60 are really represented by a mixture of base 6 and base 10 numerals. These are alternated in a repeating fashion, forming a sort of super-structure of base 60, but it directly decomposes into alternating 6-10 base. It's not a true base 60 where there are 60 unique characters. __________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
 20th May 2020, 08:45 AM #3289 Wudang BOFH     Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,934 Originally Posted by Vixen Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea. Do I? Gosh. Here's me been using metres since the 70's and I still have to do that? Shame on me. __________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
 20th May 2020, 09:06 AM #3290 lomiller Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,126 Originally Posted by Tolls Quite. There are plenty of jobs that the employer cannot afford to pay high wages, and the current wages are not sufficient for the local workforce to want to do the job (either by the nature of the job, or how things like benefits work, or a mix). What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value. __________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
 20th May 2020, 09:12 AM #3291 3point14 Pi     Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,904 Originally Posted by lomiller What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value. I always figure that if your business doesn't make enough money to pay your essential employees enough to live on you literally don't have a business, you have a charity masquerading as a business. I'll except early startups from this. Maybe. __________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
 20th May 2020, 09:37 AM #3292 abaddon Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 22,887 Originally Posted by Vixen I have zero problems calculating the metric scale. Although the four-minute mile sounds so much less romantic when put in metres. Who cares about an odd couple of inches or centimetres when judging social distance? Great. I work with ease with both. Now what are the advantages of imperial measure over metric. Or shall we start posting speed limits on the road in units of furlongs per fortnight? That is a perfectly valid imperial unit of speed. __________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...
 20th May 2020, 03:08 PM #3294 quadraginta Becoming Beth     Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,613 Originally Posted by Vixen Because you end up with a long string of decimal points! Imagine if time was decimalised. 12:37 would become a nightmare 12.616666666666. That depends on how much precision you are after. 12.62 hours is plenty good if all you are after is the nearest minute. If you want seconds then even with HMS you still need to add two more digits. And to get beyond that you have to switch to decimal anyway. ************************************************ Consider 'seasonal hours'. The day has twenty four hours. Sunrise to sunset gets twelve of them. Sunset to sunrise gets the other twelve. Yes. The hours were different lengths depending on the time of year, and the length of an hour was rarely the same at night as it was in the daytime. And yet, this was the system that entire cultures used for many generations, and it really hasn't been all that long since it fell out of favor completely. That's just one example. It's all a matter of what you are used to. __________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 20th May 2020 at 03:09 PM.
 21st May 2020, 01:06 AM #3295 Tolls Philosopher   Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,229 Originally Posted by lomiller What should really happen in these cases is that the business should pass along the higher cost to it’s customers. If the customers refuse to pay more for the product, then it was inherently low value to begin with and is makes sense to abandon it in favor of producing something of higher value. Except all UK governments want a degree of food production. We either bin our food production and simply, as you imply, produce high end food only (or change land use entirely) and import everything we really eat, or possibly reduce our food standards...which is something the current government seems hell-bent on forcing on us when it comes to a US deal. The next couple of years will be interesting for farming.
 21st May 2020, 02:41 AM #3296 Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 37,649 Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says. Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656 So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration.
 21st May 2020, 03:20 AM #3297 The Don Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 32,760 Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says. Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656 So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration. Yes, but now we've left the EU we can control those non-EU migrants as opposed to when we were in the EU and we were compelled to have open borders with every country.
 21st May 2020, 07:03 AM #3298 Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 37,649 In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats. Typical comments this morning "The RNLI should be disbanded as they're acting like a taxi service for illegal immigrants" "The RNLI are aiding and abetting criminals who are trying to illegally enter our country" "RNLI should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting criminals who are illegally entering our country". "The RNLI are a registered charity I would urge people not to donate anymore." "The RNLI traitors are still escorting dinghies and boats full of illegal immigrants into our country" "RNLI Treason! Boycott the RNLI, govt should act"
 21st May 2020, 07:26 AM #3299 The Don Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 32,760 Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats. That's why I give Twitter a wide berth (and why I used to give certain pubs and individuals a wide berth).
 21st May 2020, 07:29 AM #3300 Tolls Philosopher   Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,229 That reads like a mix of morons and Russians...
 21st May 2020, 08:52 AM #3301 P.J. Denyer Philosopher   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,515 Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says. Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656 So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration. This was always going to be the irony of "Brexit for Racists", we'll be exchanging those most culturally and superficially similar to ourselves for the very people they really object to. You can only assume they thought Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis would flood here? __________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
 21st May 2020, 04:13 PM #3302 SezMe post-pre-born Moderator     Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 25,180 Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Net migration to the UK from countries outside the European Union has risen to its highest level for 45 years, the Office for National Statistics says. Figures show an estimated 282,000 more non-EU citizens came to the UK than left in 2019, the highest since the information was first gathered in 1975. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52752656 So much for leaving the EU reducing immigration. Isn't that expected. If it's clear the UK is going to restrict immigration then those who might want to come to the UK some time in the future will stop dithering and make the move while it's still possible.
 23rd May 2020, 07:26 AM #3303 Greebo Critical Thinker   Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 261 Very late reply to this Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Priti Patel has announced that if you earn under £25,600 you're basically unskilled, a second class citizen and of no value to society. My daughter doesn't earn that much. She has a degree in biomedical sciences and works for the NHS. She is part of the overworked team checking samples for covid 19. The gap between the real world and what some politicians believe it to be is astounding.
 23rd May 2020, 07:52 AM #3304 Mojo Mostly harmless     Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 34,809 Originally Posted by Greebo Very late reply to thisMy daughter doesn't earn that much. She has a degree in biomedical sciences and works for the NHS. She is part of the overworked team checking samples for covid 19. The gap between the real world and what some politicians believe it to be is astounding. It’s OK, that had already been replied to: Originally Posted by shuttlt This view of the world seems to be purely left wing. If you are only commanding £25,600, society has already passed what ever judgement there may be to pass. By definition the role is not one with a labour shortage and a high demand for the work to be performed. If you are going to have any sort of needs based immigration model, surely people with skills that are not in demand are the people not to bring in. There is no moral judgement about your worth as a person, or your skill level or anything else. __________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 23rd May 2020 at 07:54 AM.
 23rd May 2020, 08:04 AM #3305 Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat     Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 14,133 Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs. __________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
 23rd May 2020, 08:21 AM #3306 Mojo Mostly harmless     Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 34,809 Originally Posted by Pixel42 Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs. Those will be fine as long as they all guarantee to work 57-hour weeks. __________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
 23rd May 2020, 09:33 AM #3307 P.J. Denyer Philosopher   Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 8,515 Originally Posted by Pixel42 Last time I checked there were tens of thousands of vacancies for care workers in the UK. Mostly minimum wage jobs. But under capitalism I thought hard to fill jobs attracted more money? Why don't care workers earn more than MPs, every election theres multiple candudates for every position there? Anyone would think reality doesn't match the theory but that can't be right... __________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
 23rd May 2020, 01:52 PM #3308 Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 50,056 Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer But under capitalism I thought hard to fill jobs attracted more money? Why don't care workers earn more than MPs, every election theres multiple candudates for every position there? Anyone would think reality doesn't match the theory but that can't be right... Your understanding of capitalism must be shallow indeed. It's hard to fill those jobs because it doesn't pay a lot, because the system can't support paying care workers a lot. It would be easy to fill the jobs if the pay was high, but there's not enough money available to make that happen. The fact that it's a low skill job also helps keep wages down. __________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
 23rd May 2020, 02:18 PM #3309 jimbob Uncritical "thinker"     Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 23,498 Originally Posted by Darat Only for old people - apart from miles kids and anyone under the age of what now 45 thinks in terms of metric units. And only a statistical insignificant number of those would be able to tell you how many yards are in a mile. And being a transitional I can use yards or metres but metres is always my prefered unit. Yup. Or anyone who has been in any hardware store over the last 30 years. __________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
 25th May 2020, 04:02 AM #3310 Mongrel Begging for Scraps     Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK, suburbia. 20 minutes in the future Posts: 2,112 Originally Posted by jimbob Yup. Or anyone who has been in any hardware store over the last 30 years. I as taught metric but real life used imperial, so I was mostly confused. I prefer metric though as it's less confusing and, IMO, the lauded "You can divide by lots of different numbers" is mostly unnecassary as rounding off to the nearest mm, 5g or 5ml is accurate enough for almost all everyday waork. __________________ “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer
 25th May 2020, 04:21 AM #3311 Ulf Nereng Muse   Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 651 As an aside to the imperial vs metric discussion I'd like to mention the so-called "descriptive" chess notation system which was in use in English speaking countries for far too long. It was still in use in in the eighties, when it was finally abandoned for the much more sensible algebraic notation which was of course invented by the germans a hundred years before the brits finally relented.. Example: Kkt-KB3 (descriptive notation) Nf3 (algebraic)
 25th May 2020, 04:22 AM #3312 Ulf Nereng Muse   Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 651 double Last edited by Ulf Nereng; 25th May 2020 at 04:23 AM.
 27th May 2020, 07:32 AM #3313 Wudang BOFH     Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,934 https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...andemic/26/05/ Quote: The most important farming legislation in generations passed its third reading in parliament despite warnings that in a bid to make the UK market pliable for a post-Brexit US trade deal, protections of minimum food safety standards have evaporated, as have safeguards for Britain’s farmers. __________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
 27th May 2020, 08:00 AM #3314 Tolls Philosopher   Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,229 Well, there goes a chunk of the economy here in Herefordshire. And the tossers will still give that arse Bill Wiggin one of the largest majorities in the country...
 27th May 2020, 08:05 AM #3315 The Don Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 32,760 Originally Posted by Wudang I'm shocked, shocked I tell you Originally Posted by Tolls Well, there goes a chunk of the economy here in Herefordshire. And the tossers will still give that arse Bill Wiggin one of the largest majorities in the country... Yes, somehow the farmers will find a way to blame the EU and/or the Labour party and not Brexiteers and the Tory party.
 27th May 2020, 08:10 AM #3316 catsmate No longer the 1     Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,054 Originally Posted by Vixen Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought. The over-sixties perhaps. The rest of us use the Metric system, or rather the SI. __________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
 27th May 2020, 08:12 AM #3317 catsmate No longer the 1     Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,054 Originally Posted by abaddon Now what are the advantages of imperial measure over metric. It appeals to the Little Englanders. __________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
 27th May 2020, 08:14 AM #3318 catsmate No longer the 1     Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,054 Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop In among all the usual stupidity about sinking boats with asylum seekers trying to cross the channel I am starting to see a lot of twitter threads criticising the RNLI for rescuing asylum seekers from boats. Typical comments this morning "The RNLI should be disbanded as they're acting like a taxi service for illegal immigrants" "The RNLI are aiding and abetting criminals who are trying to illegally enter our country" "RNLI should be prosecuted for aiding and abetting criminals who are illegally entering our country". "The RNLI are a registered charity I would urge people not to donate anymore." "The RNLI traitors are still escorting dinghies and boats full of illegal immigrants into our country" "RNLI Treason! Boycott the RNLI, govt should act" And yet if I organised the rounding up of such people and had them dropped into the Atlantic I'd be the bad person... __________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
 27th May 2020, 08:16 AM #3319 3point14 Pi     Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,904 Originally Posted by The Don I'm shocked, shocked I tell you Yes, somehow the farmers will find a way to blame the EU and/or the Labour party and not Brexiteers and the Tory party. Actually, I don't think it matters. Lots of MPs who made noise about this being a bad idea before the election voted cheerfully for it now. People have short memories. They'll have forgotten about it the next time Boris has to hide in a fridge. __________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
 27th May 2020, 08:21 AM #3320 catsmate No longer the 1     Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,054 Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer No, I'm not. there may be a similar footnote there, but I am definitely remembering the section in "Green & Pleasant Land" which I read some time before "Good Omens" was written. It does sound like something Marcus Rowland would write and he contributed to GAPL/ __________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

International Skeptics Forum