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7th October 2015, 07:21 AM | #1 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
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Actually, if they say it can't be explained, they are not real scientists. A real scientist would say something like "based on the data I have now, I can't explain ....." - Which is an entirely different statement. Hans |
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7th October 2015, 08:09 AM | #2 |
Philosopher
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Science can't explain
Agatha,
- These are probably the best places to start. - http://shroud.com/78conclu.htm - http://shroud.com/78team.htm |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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7th October 2015, 08:19 AM | #3 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th October 2015, 08:19 AM | #4 |
Penultimate Amazing
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From the first link:
Quote:
From the second link: (Deleted: Those who did not take part in the investigation.)
Quote:
Ah, well ...... Hans |
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7th October 2015, 08:29 AM | #5 |
Alta Viro
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Jabba,
It really is helpful if you would summarize in your own words what your argument is. Please do not just post links without any sort of comment from you. In the past you have shown an inability to be aware of what you link to. Sometimes, your linked articles have stated something opposite of what you had intended. It is OK to post links to your sources; in fact, it is much preferred. But this should be used to support what you have to say, not be a substitute for it. Here is what Agatha has asked: 1. Please name some of these scientists. 2. Note their area of expertise. 3. Explain what aspect of the shroud they confess to finding inexplicable. |
7th October 2015, 08:34 AM | #6 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Monza,
- Are you sure that this is what you want me to address? - I'll be back. |
7th October 2015, 08:38 AM | #7 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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7th October 2015, 08:56 AM | #8 |
Philosopher
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Science can't explain
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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7th October 2015, 09:04 AM | #9 |
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In addition to your contemptuous continued dismissal of Mme F-L, the "scientists" you offer cannot even agree on whether there is, or is not, Iron (III) oxide upon the sized and gessoed surface of the manifestly medieval linen...
How many of the "scientists" you list, who have "studied" the CIQ, have actually examined the artifact itself? The "lack of understanding" of which you speak appears to be an artifact of self-selection. Did you read the link I posted for you, last night? |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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7th October 2015, 09:06 AM | #10 |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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7th October 2015, 09:08 AM | #11 |
Mostly harmless
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7th October 2015, 09:08 AM | #12 |
Troublesome Passenger
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Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore, So do our minutes hasten to their end . . . WS |
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7th October 2015, 09:09 AM | #13 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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7th October 2015, 09:23 AM | #14 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th October 2015, 10:57 AM | #15 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You forgot the scientists who did the 14C dating. They could explain it too: It was a 14th century fabrication.
We're on the fourth generation thread of this fiasco now Jabba, and you have no evidence of authenticity that stands up to the sniff test. It's been a long time since you did anything but a fringe reset or promise to be back. |
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7th October 2015, 11:05 AM | #16 |
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Dear Mr. Savage:
I, for one, would appreciate it if you would address the fact that you appear to be basing at least some of your argument on Shroedinger's Rust. Which of your arguments (the one that is based upon the presence of Fe2O3, or the one that is based upon the absence of Fe2O3) represents reality? |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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7th October 2015, 11:51 AM | #17 |
Alta Viro
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Again, here is what Agatha asked you to address. 1. Please name some of these scientists. 2. Note their area of expertise. 3. Explain what aspect of the shroud they confess to finding inexplicable. OK, let's just start with the first name on your second link.
Quote:
I read through your first link, but it does not mention Mr. Accetta at all. Since your information doesn't tell me what his area of expertise is, I can't tell what in the STURP final report he may have contributed to. I certainly can't tell what Mr. Accetta contributed to the research or what he feels he cannot explain based on his particular area of study. There are 32 other names that all have the same lack of information from you. This is why I asked you to reply to Agatha in your own words. You don't seem to have read the information you link to in order to tell if it actually responds to the question at hand. |
7th October 2015, 11:55 AM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th October 2015, 11:57 AM | #19 |
Fiend God
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7th October 2015, 12:15 PM | #20 |
Winking at the Moon
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Joseph S. Accetta, Lockheed Corporation* His expertise is in optical sensors. But he does have a PhD.
Steven Baumgart, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories* I can't find him on the internet to assess his area of expertise. John D. German, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories* Can't find him either, though to be fair his surname may make it difficult. Ernest H. Brooks II, Brooks Institute of Photography* He appears to be a photographer, but not a scientist. Mark Evans, Brooks Institute of Photography* There are too many famous people called Mark Evans for me to be able to find him on the net. Vernon D. Miller, Brooks Institute of Photography* Another photographer, appearing to specialise in nudes. Donald Devan, Oceanographic Services Inc.* His expertise was in computer image analysis, but though he studied physics he does not appear to have a PhD Rudolph J. Dichtl, University of Colorado* Robert Dinegar, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Donald & Joan Janney, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* J. Ronald London, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Roger A. Morris, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Ray Rogers, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Kenneth E. Stevenson, IBM* Thomas F. D'Muhala, Nuclear Technology Corporation* Roger & Marty Gilbert, Oriel Corporation* Thomas Haverty, Rocky Mountain Thermograph* John P. Jackson, U.S. Air Force Academy* Eric J. Jumper, U.S. Air Force Academy* Jean Lorre, Jet Propulsion Laboratory* Donald J. Lynn, Jet Propulsion Laboratory* Robert W. Mottern, Sandia Laboratories* Samuel Pellicori, Santa Barbara Research Center* Barrie M. Schwortz, Barrie Schwortz Studios* I had expected that you would have listed their areas of expertise, Jabba, as I'd particularly asked you to do this. So I went through the first seven names (as it was Jabba's job to do this, I stopped after seven) on the list of 'scientists' who took part in the investigation in 1978, and so far it seems that 'scientist' is being used in a very loose sense; only one of the first seven has a PhD that I can find, and in any case none of their areas of expertise appear to relate to textiles, art history, archaeology, chemistry, biology or forensics. It is not even clear from this list how many of these people actually observed or handled the shroud itself (rather than photographs of it). The investigation that these people did took place before the carbon dating analysis; it may be that if those results had been known, the results of their investigation may have been rather different. I don't think you have evidenced your assertion that "most" scientists who have studied the shroud 'admit they cannot explain it'. In 1978, a number of people, at least one of whom can properly be described as a scientist (but including many who were not scientists) performed an investigation. Their conclusion was that some aspects could not currently be explained, but that they suspected explanations would be made in the future. That was 37 years ago. I do not know, of course, how many scientists were part of that group, since you did not provide that information. Nor how many scientists have been involved in investigations before or since, including the carbon dating work. But I don't think you have met your burden of proof of showing that "most" (51%+) scientists who have studied the shroud have admitted it cannot be explained. Nor does any of this really touch on authenticity (see the many analogies already made to demonstrate that irreproducibility and inexplicability do not support or imply authenticity). |
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7th October 2015, 12:42 PM | #21 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I looked up the two faculty from the Air Force Academy. Both are engineers.
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7th October 2015, 01:54 PM | #22 |
Philosopher
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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7th October 2015, 01:57 PM | #23 |
Illuminator
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How unusual for you to throw out some links to stuff you haven't read.
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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7th October 2015, 01:58 PM | #24 |
Featherless biped
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Yes, but how many of this list are called Steve?
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7th October 2015, 02:01 PM | #25 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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7th October 2015, 02:02 PM | #26 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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7th October 2015, 02:10 PM | #27 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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7th October 2015, 02:12 PM | #28 |
I say nay!
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Wait, multiple threads and jabba is on "Well if X scientist(s) can't explain it, it must be true!"...wow
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Memento Mori |
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7th October 2015, 05:22 PM | #29 |
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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7th October 2015, 05:36 PM | #30 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Not to put too fine a point on things but what the **** have you been doing when you've been studying the Shroud? You know nothing about the scientists who you claim have studied the thing. You have to get back to everyone about everything. You can't handle even the most basic questions. You did not come here ready to have a serious discussion.
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7th October 2015, 05:39 PM | #31 |
Fiend God
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7th October 2015, 05:50 PM | #32 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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7th October 2015, 05:59 PM | #33 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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7th October 2015, 09:09 PM | #34 |
Featherless biped
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7th October 2015, 10:40 PM | #35 |
post-pre-born
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Jabba, why are you studiously avoiding Slowvehicle?
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7th October 2015, 11:44 PM | #36 |
Philosopher
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8th October 2015, 03:07 AM | #37 |
No longer the 1
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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8th October 2015, 04:27 AM | #38 |
Critical Thinker
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And as it had been said a zillion times before:
If the Vatican truly believed in the authenticity of The Fake of Turin, they would make it a publicity stunt. Independent scientists, lots of accredited laboratories, invite the press, serve canapes. Then publish the results, showing that The Rag was very close to 1980 years old! It would be a huge victory for the RCC (Even though the result really only would show that it was ~2000 years old, and say nothing about the rest of the story). And all the skeptics would look like losers, because "THE CHURCH WAS RIGHT"! Hordes of (God loves you, and he always needs more money) But they don't! Because the RCC knows full well what the story of the cloth is, and they are fully aware, that more testing would only show, that the miraculously wedge shaped head of jesus never touched it, because the age support the "Medieval fabricated relic"-theory completely. As it is now, they sit on their hands, cash in the money and have no intentions to change that. |
8th October 2015, 05:16 AM | #39 |
Illuminator
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In JabbaWorld the RCC are part of the conspiracy
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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8th October 2015, 06:20 AM | #40 |
Fiend God
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