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26th January 2016, 12:09 AM | #1 |
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The self defeating debate strategy of religion
I was on a Christian website and I noticed two things. The first is that supposedly rational discussion was often countered by resorting to a biblical quote. That seemed very odd to me because these types of quotes are very weak in arguments. However, I then noticed that the guidelines say:
Now, suppose someone used Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. I would normally just paraphrase it to show how silly it is. For example: The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. or God hath said in his heart, Only a fool believeth in me. I am corrupt, I have done abominable works, I doeth none good. But that would presumably be considered blasphemous. So, I can see that in this framework what would normally be a very weak debating tactic would now be very strong tactic since it could not be easily countered. I notice too that no one who suggested that atheists or homosexuals were evil could be accused of being prejudiced. In other words, you could be called a fool for not believing even if you had logical reasons, but you couldn't suggest that someone was a fool for believing even if they had no reason for their belief. That would suggest to me that someone used to having discussions inside a religious framework would probably be shocked to find out how weak their arguments are or that they were unaware of what makes a solid argument. That might explain why someone like Kirk Cameron seems to think that his arguments are nearly irrefutable but why I find I find arguments like his so empty. |
26th January 2016, 01:51 AM | #2 |
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Good to see how open minded and friendly they are - proper Christians indeed!
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26th January 2016, 06:11 AM | #3 |
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That has often been my observation, and it does not apply uniquely to religious arguments but to fringe beliefs and philosophical arguments, too. Such people often come to the JREF/ISF, and it is clear that they are intelligent enough and fairly well read, but they act as if they have never been credibly challenged in their thinking and so must by necessity be right. Such are the ones who seem to take the most umbrage at having their arguments dismantled here.
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26th January 2016, 06:58 AM | #4 |
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26th January 2016, 07:26 AM | #5 |
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If you really want to make a Christian fret, then point out the following facts:
First, Jesus and all of the apostles and other followers were Jewish. Second, point out that Jesus (even if he did exist) did not intend to start a new religion because there is nothing in the New Testament which discusses the formation of new religion or the renouncement of the Jewish faith. Third, God never does call Jesus his son. Fourth, there is that weird bit where Jesus is presented with the ghost of Moses. |
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26th January 2016, 07:56 AM | #6 |
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26th January 2016, 08:34 AM | #7 |
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26th January 2016, 10:16 AM | #8 |
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Hmmm... Matthew 17:5
How about the church = the New Israel, and the Old Israel has lost its position? This is not a direct quote, but the thought obviously is there to abandon the Jewish national nature of the religion, replacing the temple rituals with faith in the blood of Jesus, and rejection of literal adherence to laws of the Jewish Torah, such as eating pork etc. NT is rather revolutionary / rebellious towards OT. |
26th January 2016, 12:36 PM | #9 |
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26th January 2016, 12:49 PM | #10 |
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I'm not sure I understand the complaint in the OP. Sometimes people who share a common interest want to discuss their interest with each other, not debate the merits of that interest with antagonistic outsiders.
If you want to evaluate their debate strategy, wouldn't it make more sense to find examples of Christians who are actually seeking a debate with atheists? The OP kinda reads like walking into an IHOP, challenging the nearest table to a fight, and then calling them all losers when they explain they just want to eat pancakes and socialize with each other. |
26th January 2016, 01:09 PM | #11 |
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Correct.
Quote:
Hebrews 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Quote:
Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Quote:
Matthew 17:1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7 But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. |
26th January 2016, 04:47 PM | #12 |
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Paraphrasing doesn't involve completely changing the meaning of the statement being paraphrased. For example, "Bob's a jackass," is not a paraphrase of, "Bob's a really awesome dude." I don't think so. Definitely not in this situation. They at least have an "authoritative" source for their quotations. You do not. Your "counter-quotes" can be easily dismissed based on that fact alone. That "authoritative" part is important; you can't just make up a counter-quote mimicking the prose of the inspired word of their god and expect it to have any weight whatsoever. "It's in the Bible," or "God says so," is really all the reason they need. |
26th January 2016, 05:10 PM | #13 |
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27th January 2016, 11:40 AM | #14 |
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Yes. Yes I was. I knew I was right. I knew I had the correct answers because all my answers could be found in the bible. Evolution was wrong, cause it says in Genesis that god created the world in six days. The bible was completely and literally true. If you didn't understand why it was true, you either didn't study it enough, lacked faith, or were willfully ignoring it.
In the tradition (or system, or school, not sure what to label it) that I was brought up in, outside inquiry, that is reading sources not approved by the leaders, was highly discouraged, if not actively ridiculed, and in case of the ACE curriculum, you could be punished for it. So yes I was shocked, and angry when I first confronted all the evil atheist and believers in evolution on forums such as this one. How dare they dismiss the bible. How dare they ridicule YEC. Who were they to challenge my beliefs? It was quit the shock to the system. The journey from born again fundamentalist Christian to atheist has taken 20 years. It can be very upsetting to re-evaluate everything you were taught. But it has been so worth it. |
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27th January 2016, 11:49 PM | #15 |
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I am on the same journey, in a similar timeline, but I wouldn't call myself atheist, but rather agnostic. I wouldn't say that I have deliberately rejected everything what I believed in the past, but now it seems that if anything believed back then is correct, it is so incidentally rather than because religious source material such as the Bible are reliable to any extent. I wouldn't preach atheism to a believer. I don't have a firm faith in any specific other truth than what a religious person has. I simply have doubts about everything, including atheism.
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28th January 2016, 01:36 AM | #16 |
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28th January 2016, 01:41 AM | #17 |
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Unless you are praying from time to time "just in case a god exists" from the sound of it you are probably an agnostic atheist. E.g. disbelieving or not living your live as if a god exists (theist part), but not having the knowledge whether a god exists or not (gnosis part).
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28th January 2016, 01:47 AM | #18 |
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Authorship in contest and certainly not words from Jesus. Assumed to be a debate letter between pro-judaist (need to convert to judaism to accept jesus message) and those who were that one can be christian and having no need to convert. The fact that there was a debate certainly show it was not at that time a done deal.
So not exactly a shining point against barehl's argument. |
28th January 2016, 06:07 AM | #19 |
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Not quite the point. Adam SK was responding to this observation.
Second, point out that Jesus (even if he did exist) did not intend to start a new religion because there is nothing in the New Testament which discusses the formation of new religion or the renouncement of the Jewish faith.Whoever may be the author of Hebrews, it is in the New Testament although it was most certainly not composed by Jesus, or even by Paul, to whom it has wrongly been attributed in the past. |
28th January 2016, 07:16 AM | #20 |
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28th January 2016, 09:07 AM | #21 |
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28th January 2016, 10:09 AM | #22 |
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28th January 2016, 10:15 AM | #23 |
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28th January 2016, 10:16 AM | #24 |
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28th January 2016, 10:18 AM | #25 |
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28th January 2016, 12:01 PM | #26 |
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Fixing this. The rules as written (and almost certainly as interpreted) preclude any kind of dialogue between believer and non-believer with more depth than a sermon.
If someone decides to turn their brain off and respond with bible quotes, you can't tell them they're being ignorant of the facts (because that's belittling them), you can't tell them the Bible isn't true (because that's blasphemy), and frankly you've got good odds of the discussion being shut down regardless of how you respond, because at that point you're arguably intending to move to one of the above violations eventually. To be honest, if you want an actual discussion under rules like that, your best bet is to troll them so hard they'll be crapping Guy Fawkes masks for a week. If you want to challenge theological point X, don't just say so; find a sect which themselves disagree about X and ask for "clarification." With any luck they'll be too busy arguing with each other to notice that the heathen in the room is saying things he'd never get away with against a united front. |
28th January 2016, 12:05 PM | #27 |
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Which is not what I said, even though you are trying to bend it that way. The only discussion has been about the quality of argument. Worse in terms of quality of argument, not in terms of anyone's goal or beliefs. To put this in terms that don't have the pejorative of religious discussions, consider something like golf. Someone who has never played golf will almost certainly have poor golfing skills. This has nothing to do with that person's desire to play golf or whether they consider golf to be important.
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28th January 2016, 12:33 PM | #28 |
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28th January 2016, 12:43 PM | #29 |
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I think Aepervius is referring not to the date of composition of the individual works ("a collection of disparate stories") but to the date of their compilation as a single canonical collection. This happened later.
By the early 3rd century, Origen may have been using the same twenty-seven books as in the present New Testament canon, though there were still disputes over the acceptance of the Letter to the Hebrews, James, II Peter, II John, III John, Jude and Revelation, known as the Antilegomena. Likewise, the Muratorian fragment is evidence that, perhaps as early as 200, there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to the twenty-seven-book NT canon, which included four gospels and argued against objections to them. Thus, while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings are claimed to have been accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the 3rd century. |
29th January 2016, 07:09 AM | #30 |
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Since there is no possible counter to anything Christian which could not be described as one of those things by a Christian, that just amounts to saying that you're not allowed to disagree with Christianity... which is not a big deal at a "Christian website". But it does make me wonder what purpose there could be in going to such a site, for a non-Christian. I'm reminded of the meme that was going around several years ago about religio-nuts registering at sites like this one and Dawkins's old forum, dumping a few turds over a week or two, and disappearing; they were laughed at for supposedly just being here/there to complete a homework assignment in some Christian college class where they were told to go forth and challenge the infidel on our own turf.
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29th January 2016, 08:13 AM | #31 |
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29th January 2016, 08:21 AM | #32 |
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Your very presence would be a challenge. Much of Christian theology relies on the premise that the only reason not to be Christian is because you're stubborn, angry or ignorant. That's why they quote the bible passages - they really do think that all you need is to hear the words in the right circumstances and you'll convert just like that. The existence of someone who is polite, agreeable, knowledgeable about the bible, yet still an atheist is enough to crap in their punch bowl all on its own.
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29th January 2016, 09:34 AM | #33 |
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On the other hand, it would be disingenuous to accuse someone who has no desire to play golf of having a "self-defeating golf strategy". Indeed, it would disingenuous to accuse someone who enjoyed playing golf casually, without being concerned about improving their skill or matching themselves against competitive players, of having a "self-defeating golf strategy".
I think that before you accuse someone of having a self-defeating golf strategy, it's important to verify that they are actually interested in succeeding at golf in the way that you measure success in golf. And I think that before you accuse some group of Christians of having a self-defeating debate strategy, it's important to verify that they are actually interested in succeeding at the kind of debate you want to have with them. To me it seems like you are looking at a group of amateur golfers more interested in socializing than in their handicaps, and saying "well, they'll never get to the Masters that way", as if it's some important insight or indictment of their game. These Christians clearly aren't interested in the kind of debate you want to have. You can't really say they have a strategy for something they're not interested in doing, let alone a self-defeating one. That's why I recommended finding Christians who actually are interested in debate, and proceed from there. |
29th January 2016, 09:49 AM | #34 |
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Echo chambers are great places to hear your own echo - whether you're talking about religion, science, TV shows, or any other topic.
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29th January 2016, 11:47 AM | #35 |
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2nd February 2016, 03:47 AM | #36 |
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3rd February 2016, 01:50 AM | #37 |
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Just as it would be disingenuous to pretend that I actually said that.
Quote:
Quote:
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3rd February 2016, 01:54 AM | #38 |
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3rd February 2016, 06:01 AM | #39 |
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But those posters, IIRC, were hit-and-run posters. They dropped their turd and didn't engage in debate after the obvious counter-posts to their turds. As I read the OP, barehl came to said forum with the intent to actually debate the Christian posters there. It would be better to compare him to Christian posters here like DOC or AvalonXQ, who actually did debate views on religion here.
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3rd February 2016, 07:48 AM | #40 |
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Playing golf is a hobby interest. It's not a belief system that attempts to dictate how you should live your life, how others should live theirs, how and what you should believe about the fundamental facts throughout all of nature (e.g., origin of universe, origin of humans on Earth, reason for the existence of humans and animals, heaven and hell as an afterlife, necessity to oppose any scientific discoveries that clash with the holly books, preaching conversion to children in homes and schools etc.). Afaik, golf does not have a vast history of engaging in countless wars with millions of victims. But religion certainly does. IOW, there is absolutely no comparison with what people believe and argue about golf vs. what they believe and argue in defence of religion. |
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