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26th November 2015, 08:11 PM | #1681 |
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A person, like yourself, for whom "authenticity" is a pre-assumed and foregone conclusion; such that all, any, reality must be filtered though the conclusion that the CIQ must be the True Shroud©®™℗
What is it, then; and why do you, personally, think it qualifies the Good Professor as an "expert" in potential multi-person daring or medieval cloth repair? The ones that have been pointed out to you, multiple times. I take it you have not, then? How sad. Fix it. |
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27th November 2015, 04:04 AM | #1682 |
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27th November 2015, 07:07 AM | #1683 |
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27th November 2015, 07:56 AM | #1684 |
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Why would you add it to your 'pro-undocumented invisible-repair pan', when Delorenzi's quote only refers to his "impression" of the number of people involved in the actual, documented and highly visible repairs?
Possibly. But it isn't difficult to find Delorenzi's area of expertise. On the subject of credibility, though, M&P have suggested that the repair by the Poor Clare nuns was done in 1973, and asserted that Gove invented C14 dating. Their ability to fact check and report honestly is already in doubt. The fact that they twist a quote about the documented repairs to support their desire for there to be an undocumented, invisible, impossible repair is just another nail in their credibility coffin. All of their comments and claims in that pdf are therefore suspect. Thank you both, it is much appreciated! |
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27th November 2015, 09:15 AM | #1685 |
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28th November 2015, 07:02 AM | #1686 |
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Jabba, the point made by Agatha here demonstrates that your quotation from Delorenzi is irrelevant to the question of the age of the cloth and irrelevant to the issue of whether the carbon dating is reliable. Either rebut Agatha's point or abandon your "entry #1" and move on to #2. |
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28th November 2015, 08:15 AM | #1687 |
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Jabba,
Try returning to and addressing the topic at hand. Do you concede that your first point from your risible pdf list of speculations is rejected as worthless? Do you accept that Enzo has no expertise in textiles, has an authenticity agenda has not actually done any scientific examinations of the cloth and simply provides baseless "impressions"? Do you understand that Enzo was a consultant hospital radiologist with no relevant expertise whatsoever? Do you understand that Enzo was twice appointed by the Vatican to a papally blessed commission about the cloth in 1969 and again in 1973? Do you understand that there is a reason that this occurred? |
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28th November 2015, 09:22 AM | #1688 |
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28th November 2015, 10:20 AM | #1689 |
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28th November 2015, 11:48 AM | #1690 |
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With respect to the rest of your post, which is spot-on, I believe it is we who have demanded he go point by point. Jabba erroneously considered the totality of it to stand as a "consilient" argument and opposed a detailed examination. I showed how consilience requires examination of each point individually, in isolation. And he seems to have accepted that requirement. He has consented to discuss his list of evidence point-by-point, but it was not his demand that we do so, as I recall.
Specifically Jabba wants some of these to stand as expert judgment in favor of his belief, that apparently being that the carbon-14 testing should be set aside because it was done on fabric added to the cloth in the 14th Century, the date shown by testing. Here's where his first point stands according to those criteria. Lack of foundation. Delorenzi does not state upon what specific evidence or specific observation is "impression" is based. No evidence is presented that Delorenzi carried out the sort of examination that would ordinarily be required to observe and develop evidence supporting this conclusion. Other suitable examinations by others failed to produce any such evidence. Jabba admits this deficiency, and arrogantly suggests his critics do so on his behalf. Lack of foundation. Determination of individualized styles or patterns in textile fabrication is not a lay skill. No evidence has been shown to establish that Delorenzi has the required training and experience. No evidence has been produced to substantiate that Delorenzi possesses any such skill -- however derived. Jabba has indicated he is aware of Delorenzi's true qualifications but indicates he wishes Delorenzi nevertheless to be given "some kind of credibility." Jabba admits he is aware of the authors' misrepresentation of Delorenzi's field, and of the likely reason for that misrepresentation being to obscure or deliberately misstate Delorenzi's credentials. Discord. Properly qualified experts have examined the cloth in a manner relevant to this statement and have failed to observe any evidence suggesting repairs by any hand, let alone by people not already accounted for. Delorenzi's statement, as interpreted for the purpose of this point, is contradicted by the consensus of the relevant science. Jabba has not acknowledged this fact. Irrelevant. The statement is interpreted by others in hearsay fashion to support the hypothesis that a repair was made to the cloth, by means unknown and undocumented in the accompanying historical record. Delorenzi's statement itself alludes to no such thing. No context or clarification is provided to support the authors' use of the statement. There is no rational connection between Delorenzi's statement and the authors' assertion that it supports their thesis. The authors have simply manufactured it out of whole cloth. Jabba has indicated he is aware of the authors' misuse, but he has chosen not to address it. These injuries are fatal to the claim in re Delorenzi. Jabba has indicted little if any intent to rehabilitate the Delorenzi quote. Therefore Delorenzi's statement remains disqualified on the above grounds and we should urge him to move on to point no. 2. |
28th November 2015, 12:06 PM | #1691 |
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And yet, you ignored the substantive point of the very post you quoted. Which was: why do you give credence to M&P's interpretation of Delorenzi's quote (M&P suggest that Delorenzi's quote supports an invisible, undocumented repair in the sample area) when Delorenzi only referred to believing that more than six people were involved in the work on the visible, documented repairs?
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28th November 2015, 01:05 PM | #1692 |
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28th November 2015, 01:09 PM | #1693 |
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28th November 2015, 03:00 PM | #1694 |
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Evidence - Expert Judgment
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28th November 2015, 03:04 PM | #1695 |
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28th November 2015, 03:11 PM | #1696 |
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28th November 2015, 03:12 PM | #1697 |
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post11002001
Address these points immediately, if you please.
Quote:
Over the past 48 hours or so I have emphasized the reasons why the Delorenzi statement is disqualified. I have used the word "disqualified" several times and challenged you either to rehabilitate it or move on. Please explain why you can spend so much time in blatant self-absorption and manage to miss all the various posts that actually discuss your proffered evidence. |
28th November 2015, 03:45 PM | #1698 |
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You didn't discard it, everyone else did.
The simple fact that you have failed to even realise that point #1 has been comprehensively trashed and demonstrated to be without merit clearly shows that you are wantonly ignoring what everyone, even your anointed respondents, have been saying for days. I cannot direct you to "the post". There are a veritable multitude of them not just one. Which particular rebuttal is it that you are desirous of? Are you not reading this thread? Are you not reading the responses provided? Let me guess. You will disrespectfully ignore this response as is your MO. |
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28th November 2015, 04:05 PM | #1699 |
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You misunderstand my demeanor. In fact you are not choosing me. I am choosing you.
My choice is contingent on you discarding De Lorenzi, and presenting your next claim for consideration. If you don't mean to discard the claim, then I have nothing for you to respond to. Move on from De Lorenzi, or move on from me. Either way, move on. |
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28th November 2015, 05:07 PM | #1700 |
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Let me underscore this: literally for days. During those days we have been favored with precious few posts from Jabba, none of them addressing the concerns raised regarding Delorenzi. Yet when his ego is bruised, we get post after post pursuing that.
This is insulting. Jabba presented his first witness. In good faith several posters followed up on the testimony, researched it, drew their conclusions, and laid out lines of reasoning for Jabba to address. Against their better judgment and counterindicated by Jabba's established reputation, they took his offering seriously and presented a serious response. No material response from Jabba. Jabba seems to think that a veneer of cordiality protects him from any culpability for disrespect. If that is what he thinks, then he should pay heed to Steven King's opinion that that Rowling's Dolores Umbridge is the scariest villain in literature. Sweetly brushing off well-considered criticism is an insult to the critics, no matter how sweetly it is done. Congenially suggesting that critics must have meant something other than what they said is an insult, no matter how congenially the suggestion is phrased. With the moral high ground now appropriately leveled, it is high time for Jabba to quit publicly licking his imaginary wounds and pay attention to the only thing his critics have discussed before this trumped-up offense. |
28th November 2015, 05:15 PM | #1701 | ||
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28th November 2015, 05:22 PM | #1702 |
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28th November 2015, 06:43 PM | #1703 |
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Good Evening, Mr. Savage:
Any chance you might address item #2 in the M&P paper? Or any other positive evidence that the sized and gessoed linen of the CIQ is ~2000 years old? Yours, &ct. |
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29th November 2015, 03:30 AM | #1704 |
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You know you don't need an excuse to stop discussing this topic, now that it's been shown that you have zero evidence, right? You could always silently leave if that's what you're going to do anyway.
Otherwise I suggest you address the question at hand, and stick to the topic. |
29th November 2015, 03:45 AM | #1705 |
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Good Morning, Mr. Savage:
Any chance you might address item #2 in the M&P paper? Or any other positive evidence that the sized and gessoed linen of the CIQ is ~2000 years old? Yours, &ct. |
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29th November 2015, 04:59 AM | #1706 | ||
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi
- Instead, I'm going back to Delorenzi and further explore his expertise, etc. You guys could speed things up by telling me where you find your info about him. - I did find out that his expertise was in radiology -- which seems to me like an expertise useful in discovering anomalies in the weave. - I'll be back to further discuss Delorenzi's credibility, and what he said. - He might be a drunken sailor, but he might be saying that he saw a whale, and we probably shouldn't be dismissing his testimony. |
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29th November 2015, 05:25 AM | #1707 |
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What Delorenzi said referred to the number of hands (or people) whom he believed had worked on the visible and documented repairs. He had an "impression" that more than six people had worked on them; he did not refer to any undocumented repairs. I look forward to you discussing his quote and why M&P have interpreted it the way they have.
If trying to encourage you to return to the topic of the M&P paper that you introduced is "fussing at you", then I apologise for doing so. |
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29th November 2015, 05:31 AM | #1708 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
Here is an opportunity to learn: Prof. Delorenzi was, in fact, a Radiologist; he did, in fact, undertake the radiological examination of many works of art. He even, in fact suggested that a radiological examination of the CIQ would be valuable. On the ohter hand, he did not undertake such an examination of the CIQ. He cannot be said to have brought his expertise to bear upon the CIQ. There is, in fact, no record I can find of his being allowed to handle the CIQ, or to examine it other than in its frame. Further (and more injurious to your case), the quote you offer does not refer to "invisible" reweaving, or "near-invisible" reweaving, or "undetecable" repair, nor even "...some patching" at the sampling site; instead, it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ (that M&P mis-dated). What is missing from the third-hand account of Prof. Delorenzi's conjecture is...evidence. Never mind that you, yourself, provided links that demonstrated that the "invisible" (or "French") reweave technique uses threads form the original cloth being rewoven (which means that such a repair could not alter the date, but would, in fact, make the sample even more representative of the whole cloth). Never mind that "invisible" repair uses minimal added thread (which means, of course, that there would not be enough egregious thread to skew the date). What is important is that Prof. Delorenzi offered a conjecture, outside his area of expertise, without any evidence. Had the good Professor been able to say, "Guarda, here is the rent in the CIQ that was repaired: Oservare, these are the modern threads that are bollixing the date," this would be a different argument. However, he did not. Instead, he got an "impression", an impression in line with his commitment to the authenticity of the CIQ. On to the next. Bring it. |
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29th November 2015, 05:35 AM | #1709 |
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29th November 2015, 05:54 AM | #1710 |
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29th November 2015, 06:02 AM | #1711 |
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With respect, the important point about this quotation is the one I have hilighted above. It is simply not relevant to the age or authenticity of the cloth, or the reliability of the carbon dating. Please don't encourage Jabba to continue to filibuster by discussing the expertise or evidence behind this irrelevance. Jabba, it's time for item #2. Item #1 is done. |
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29th November 2015, 07:11 AM | #1712 |
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You should have vetted Delorenzi before trotting him out as an expert witness. His testimony is irrelevant because he was discussing the known, visible patching done by the Poor Clares. His expertise in radiology is irrelevant unless he were discussing some radiological evidence WRT the authenticity of the CIQ. |
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29th November 2015, 08:25 AM | #1713 |
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29th November 2015, 08:29 AM | #1714 |
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29th November 2015, 08:54 AM | #1715 |
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Please tell us why you haven't already done this. Is it going to be your habit to misrepresent as "expert witnesses" people you know little or nothing about? Are you simply credulously parroting the words of your authors, who have now given you plenty of reasons to distrust them?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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29th November 2015, 08:58 AM | #1716 |
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Agreed. However, from the opposite perspective, nos. 2 through whatever are not likely to fare well either. Having reluctantly agreed to a detailed examination of evidence he expected to stand alone on sheer weight of numbers. his moving on is anathema. But on the other hand, if the discussion bogs down on no. 1, then the rest of the points don't get examined and remain ambiguous. Dollars to donuts we'll be mired in Delorenzi until the critics drop away by attrition.
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29th November 2015, 09:02 AM | #1717 |
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Jabba forgets he's trying to show consilience. The more he has to tap dance, cajole, and imaginatively interpret each point on his list, the more it can be said to be anti-consilient.
Jabba is still very much in the dark about what it means for something to be consilient. Because the concept was raised to him in response to a particular assertion, he has the wrong idea. Jabba's claim was that the number of points of testimony was important, and also that they agreed in support of his hypotheis. That together, says Jabba, makes a case. However, consilience deals almost exclusively with the latter, not the former. That is, while by definition it takes at least two lines of evidence to argue by consilience, the key concept is how they are developed in light of each other and the overall hypothesis. The qualitative development is the probative factor, not the number. Three points of consilient evidence is far more convincing than a dozen barely relevant ones. |
29th November 2015, 09:23 AM | #1718 |
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29th November 2015, 10:01 AM | #1719 |
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It seems like now might be a good time for us to set Delorenzi aside for a while, and see whether the other items on the list promise better results. If it turns out that items 2 and 3 are sufficient to establish consilience, that would save you a lot of time and effort trying to rehabilitate Delorenzi. And if not, you can always come back to Delorenzi once you have a better idea of how important he is relative to the other items.
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29th November 2015, 10:13 AM | #1720 |
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I only wished to emphasize to Jabba that he is the one who seek to prove authenticity- withholding his evidence is not leverage that can be applied to the anti-authenticity posters. They don't belief your viewpoint and they don't even believe that you have any evidence to withhold. Threatening to withhold any pro-authenticity evidence that you might have only hurts your argument and re-enforces the anti-authenticity side.
If you have any non-debunked evidence of the authenticity of the SOT now would be the time to present it to strengthen your argument. If you don't present this pro-evidence the people following this thread will inevitably conclude that you have none, which I gather would not be what you are seeking. Please state your most convincing evidence first- your quote from a radiologist who glanced at the SOT from a distance and had the impression that multiple hands worked on the well known and highly visible patches was totally irrelevant and only further convinced the anti-authenticity side that you have no evidence- even indirect or circumstantial. |
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