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29th November 2015, 10:15 AM | #1721 |
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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29th November 2015, 10:19 AM | #1722 |
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29th November 2015, 10:22 AM | #1723 |
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Please read my above post. Also I would point out that the proper analogy is that Deloenzi was a Nebraska farmer who claimed to see a tiger in the wheat on his farm; he neighbors interpreted that to state that he probably had seen a whale in the wheat. Wrong expertise and a statement that had nothing to do with the invisible patch you need to establish to discredit the 14 C evidence, which as pointed out multiple times, would still leave you without any proof of the authenticity of the SOT.
Continuing with Delorenzi would have to be interpreted as a clear attempt to avoid any substantial discussion of the authenticity of the SOT. It would not be doing your viewpoint a favor. Please let us know if this is the best evidence you have so that we can weigh your arguments appropriately. |
29th November 2015, 10:24 AM | #1724 |
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29th November 2015, 10:25 AM | #1725 |
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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29th November 2015, 10:29 AM | #1726 |
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29th November 2015, 10:30 AM | #1727 |
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29th November 2015, 10:40 AM | #1728 |
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Probably because he did not write that he saw a patch in the area of the 14C test, and because he could not see from his distance from the SOT the "near invisible patch" that you require to negate the 14C evidence; you know, the "patch" that was not seen under a microscope by the experts who were chosen by the Vatican to find a patch free area.
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29th November 2015, 10:41 AM | #1729 |
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29th November 2015, 10:52 AM | #1730 |
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Because the quotation from Delorenzi that you have provided says nothing about any previously undetected and undocumented repairs; it just says that he got the impression that more people had been involved in the repairs than had been documented. That is not a statement that he thinks that there are more repairs than had been identified. He is clearly talking about repairs that are visible enough for differences in the needlework to be apparent. Can you provide a quotation from Delorenzi in which he says that he thinks there might be previously undetected and undocumented repairs on the shroud? ETA: Let's go back to the gold mine analogy. If I provide you with a lot of gold-free rocks that I say have been extracted from the mine with a pick axe, you are not going to consider that to be evidence that there is gold in the mine. Are you really going to be any more impressed if I get a radiologist to say that he gets the impression that some of them were extracted using a hammer and chisel? |
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29th November 2015, 10:53 AM | #1731 |
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29th November 2015, 10:54 AM | #1732 |
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Because that is what the quote says. It refers to 'the repairs' that were carried out by the Poor Clares, the blessed Valfre and the Princess Clotilde, and his (Delorenzi's) impression of more hands involved in them.
I expect that you still have access to the pdf of M&P's paper, so you can see the reference for yourself. |
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29th November 2015, 10:56 AM | #1733 |
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29th November 2015, 11:03 AM | #1734 |
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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29th November 2015, 11:15 AM | #1735 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
What an odd thing for you to say. The irony is almost palpable. ...if I provide you the source I used, will you read it? Will you read all of it? (Unlike the last times I took some pains to provide sources for you...) I mean, honestly: You have not even read your own sources. Now, about this "providing evidence for your claims" idea; suppose you do so? On to item #2, if you would... Sincerely, &ct. |
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29th November 2015, 11:15 AM | #1736 |
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29th November 2015, 11:20 AM | #1737 |
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Jabba, what would speed things up would be for you to admit that your quotation from Delorenzi says nothing about undetected repairs to the sampled area, or indeed anywhere on the cloth. It doesn't matter what his qualifications are or how he arrived at his "impression"; it cannot support your case. It is not relevant here. Item #1 is done. Please move on to item #2. |
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29th November 2015, 11:20 AM | #1738 |
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29th November 2015, 11:21 AM | #1739 |
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It's your claim, Jabba, you have the burden of proof. You brought Delorenzi's quote (and M&P's strange interpretation of it in their error ridden paper) into the discussion.
If you can explain how, reading the quote and only the words of the quote, you can get it to refer to invisible or undocumented repairs, then do so. |
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29th November 2015, 12:03 PM | #1740 |
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- 1. I hardly think it's possible. You have made zero progress in 4 years. If 40 years were to pass, I still don't think we'd see any evidence of you supporting your claims.
- 2. The a priori claims are yours, and you have never provided an iota of respectable evidence in all this time. Get busy! Best of luck! ETA: We don't want to get called for being off topic, so please, Jabba, will you at long-last present some supporting evidence that the CIQ is authentic? |
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29th November 2015, 12:13 PM | #1741 | ||
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Sorry, but no. You do not disrespectfully get to dismiss with a mere handwave all of the actual facts about Enzo, his statement and his area of expertise. Really? How disrespectful. Every participant in this thread managed to trivially find this data with one exception...you. None of us here is your personal internet slave. That you would suggest such is, at least to me, a most scurrilous notion. I suspect I am not alone in this feeling. You don't say. We have all been telling you this forever. Well, it might, had the guy ever x-rayyed the cloth, but he never did so the point is moot. What you should actually be doing is conceding that point #1 has been thoroughly demolished and moving on to point #2. But I bet you won't. Really? If he had claimed the saw a mermaid riding a unicorn would you say that we should give that claim any consideration? Here is a summation for you Jabba... 1. Enzo is/was a consultant medical radiologist. 2. Enzo never subjected the CIQ to any radiological examination 3. Enzo's chosen metier is thus rendered moot. 4. Enzo's baseless opinion that more hands were involved in the visible patches is A) a non expert opinion and B) utterly irrelevant to the question of authenticity. Now, let me put on my tinfoil hat here, Jabba, and make some predictions: 1. You will initially ignore this post. 2. When confronted with this, you will seek some sentence or phrase which you will wilfully misconstrue as an insult in some way shape or form. 3. You will then declare victory, Pyrrhic as it may be. 4. You will repeat this disrespectful behaviour with regard to every other respondent. How might I know this, you might ask of me, Jabba. I can answer that. Evidence. You have a four year history in this very thread of this very behaviour, all documented, all recorded. |
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29th November 2015, 12:15 PM | #1742 |
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29th November 2015, 12:32 PM | #1743 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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29th November 2015, 04:00 PM | #1744 |
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Correct placement of the burden of proof outweighs that concern. Further, if time was so much of the essence, why didn't you do your homework before being graded on it? Your preparation (or obvious lack thereof) is part of the argument, and may be cause to decided it against you. This isn't a group effort where we work together to discover the truth. You are being evaluated and judged according to your ability to present and defend your arguments. Behave accordingly.
Quote:
In other words, it should be abundantly apparent to you at this juncture that none of your critics here is going to accept a burden of proof that rightly belongs to you, and no one is going to let you shift it away from you under any pretext. So in order to speed things up, please stop all of these rhetorical shenanigans and stick to the point. |
29th November 2015, 04:07 PM | #1745 |
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Why would I want to speed things up? I am perfectly happy with where we are: the SOT is a fake. And I don't see any hint that we are even pointed in another future direction.
Any evidence to the contrary would be Jabba's to find and provide. |
29th November 2015, 04:43 PM | #1746 |
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Agreed. I would rather have Jabba take a six-month hiatus and return having researched all of Marino & Prior's claims to the point where he felt confident he could present and defend them in a hostile forum. The way it stands, he can write off some eventual defeat as a product of his unpreparedness, and that the conclusions themselves are still plausible. Jabba has confessed reasons to distrust those authors.
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30th November 2015, 07:57 AM | #1747 |
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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30th November 2015, 08:01 AM | #1748 |
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30th November 2015, 08:06 AM | #1749 |
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I'm afraid we're going to need more commitment than that. Is your new conviction strong enough for us to leave point no. 1 behind and move on to point no. 2? We have to ask because it's just as likely you're trying to squelch criticism for now, with every intent to "reset" Delorenzi at some later time. Zooterkin was right in cautioning me above: we have to make sure you don't try to retread the same ground later. Therefore we're going to need a clear answer that we can link back to in the unfortunate event you try to reset the argument.
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30th November 2015, 08:37 AM | #1750 |
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Good, now, can you learn from it?
Because remember, you didn't come up with that source on your own. It was from a different source. THEY were the ones who were peddling Delorenzi, and you just parroted their recommendation without thinking about it. However, now you discover that this source that they were peddling turned out to be a bust. Yes, it tells you that he is probably not a good source. BUT it ALSO tells you that your other source, the one you relied upon in the first place, is also suspect. They are demonstrably misleading. They lied to you. Now, if you are honest, you will admit that it is not just Delorenzi who you can't believe, you also can't believe the source that tried to use Delorenzi in the first place. Anyone who holds Delorenzi up as an expert witness has not done adequate analysis, and therefore cannot be considered reliable in this, nor in anything. Every claim they make has to be verified independently, which means they are worthless as a source. That's the lesson of this encounter. Will you learn it? |
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30th November 2015, 08:48 AM | #1751 |
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30th November 2015, 09:07 AM | #1752 |
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30th November 2015, 09:45 AM | #1753 |
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30th November 2015, 09:50 AM | #1754 |
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Bet the dropping of Delorenzi with accurate reason why does not make the fantasy map on Jabba's website.
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30th November 2015, 09:57 AM | #1755 |
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30th November 2015, 10:39 AM | #1756 |
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30th November 2015, 01:00 PM | #1757 | ||
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Originally Posted by Jabba
Please move on to point 2 of your latest evidence of authenticity |
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30th November 2015, 03:42 PM | #1758 |
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30th November 2015, 05:34 PM | #1759 |
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The subject here is The Miracle of the Shroud. Jabba will be back to post any imaginable claim or twisted logic to support authenticity on this, The Miracle of the Shroud thread.
It will almost always be a waste of electrons, but it will always be on the topic of The Miracle of the Shroud - except when it isn't. So back on topic: Has anyone got compelling evidence for the authenticity of the CIQ? |
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1st December 2015, 03:15 AM | #1760 |
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