|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
5th December 2015, 03:09 AM | #1841 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
My janitor-in-law (or whatever) is a devoted Buddhist, but has a home shrine for Shintoist deities. Rural Indians worship a blue god with an elephant proboscis, in a twisted interpretation of the deep philosophy of Hinduism.
You are simply not getting it, I mean, what religion is in a human scale. Your protestant backgrounds -be it personal or environmental- have brainwashed you. You're used to Catholicism "the """"American""""" way" (or Canadian, or Australian, or British), which is just "Catholicism under the spotlight of Protestantism" and has to do with Catholicism as much as Spanish spoken in the United States has to do with Spanish: one is a stereotyped, shaming, primitive, contaminated and generally limited set of dialects of the real deal. Like many Atheist Jews -oxymoronic as it sounds- who don't believe a **** in Jehovah but love rituals and everything-Sionist, the levels of belief and their connection with main stream religions are in the real world pretty free and basically independent. Jabba's lucky charm -the shroud- is just that. He's not claiming it's authentic (show me when he says "IT IS"). Phrases like "leaning towards authenticity" aren't a politically correct way to write down absolutes. They are, contradictory as they may sound, Jabba's hic et nunc: the present value the shroud has to him. I'm positive Jabba doesn't hold any structured belief about what God really is, afterlife and judgement. I'm positive he doesn't believe in a heaven that matches the epistemological level of a "real shroud of The Christ". It wouldn't surprise me that he even might not believe in heaven or eternal life at all. Believe me, the communicating vessels linking relics as lucky charms and Christian philosophy are way more twisted and clogged than you think. It's Christianity and Islam that invented and promoted the logic of "if there is one God, the other gods are false and their temples must be burnt" (reserving a secondary deity called "Devil" just to fill some gaps), but essential religiosity and magical thinking were partially preserved (like it happens everywhere else in the World). It's Protestantism which in the Christian world introduced "it's me and my bible", "faith is enough" and a set of self-absorbed notions that has even created a culture where some say "only a bunch of us will get box in the heavenly theatre" or even "the bible doesn't say what I want; I'm gonna write my own one". ISIS is one of many mirroring counterparts in the Muslim world. Don't dwell in such a perverse cultural frame. And if anyone is wrong, ask yourselves what are you doing here keeping warm this thread, waking Jabba's numen until it magically comes again to life the third day. |
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
5th December 2015, 07:10 AM | #1842 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 27,712
|
|
5th December 2015, 08:43 AM | #1843 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
5th December 2015, 10:35 AM | #1844 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 8,843
|
Studies of in-the-trenches Catholicism in the backward parts of Europe would be very interesting, and worth pursuing far beyond anything still remaining here in Jabbaland.
|
__________________
When I spoke out against the bullies, they called me woke. When I lashed them with a length of chain, they called me sir. |
|
5th December 2015, 10:40 AM | #1845 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
Well, he's back now. No-doubt reading only the first sentence of every post since his vacation.
|
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
5th December 2015, 03:01 PM | #1846 | ||
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
|
- I tend to be slow in my thinking (Slow, but deep?), and in trying to speed up I make more mistakes than usual... - Anyway, the M&P "Entries" add up to 57 altogether. At this point, I accept that if Entry #1 in the first paper is significant, M&P didn't support its validity well enough to allow it to be considered in consilience (that's probably not the correct way to describe what I'm thinking, but hopefully, you'll know what I mean). - Let's see if #2 is any better. - I'll be back. |
||
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
|||
5th December 2015, 03:13 PM | #1847 | ||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
Can you please provide some evidence of a 2000 YO CIQ before you get another time-out? |
||
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|||
5th December 2015, 03:27 PM | #1848 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
|
If you actually had any evidence for your beliefs it might help you stay on topic. When you are in a constant battle to avoid answering questions that paint you into a stark corner where you must admit this, off topic distraction is understandable. You may well think deep on other topics but it's clear your research and consideration on this subject is at the toddlers' end of the pool.
Looking forward to more abject failure on your point number two. |
5th December 2015, 03:41 PM | #1849 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Asked and answered. Numbers do not make consilience. Consilience is a qualitative proposition. Further, you've all but conceded that your authors have padded their entries.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
5th December 2015, 03:55 PM | #1850 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
|
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
5th December 2015, 04:19 PM | #1851 | ||
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
||
5th December 2015, 04:30 PM | #1852 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
Mr Savage,
How is your Shroud Blog cleanup going? That is one disreputable example of a dog's breakfast if there ever was one. Please give us progress reports as you work on cleaning-up that mess. |
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
5th December 2015, 04:40 PM | #1853 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
|
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
6th December 2015, 03:27 AM | #1854 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 27,712
|
Another way to look at consillience would be if you had multiple independent lines of evidence to say the Shroud is inauthentic. If you had carbon dating, historical, typology, Anatomy all saying it was inauthentic....oh wait, we do have all that.
|
6th December 2015, 08:28 AM | #1855 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
Hm. I agree with the thrust of this, but I think I'd frame it more as that consilience showing that the Shroud is indeed authentic- authentically medieval. Otherwise, you give someone like Jabba an opening to claim that you're trying to use consilience to prove a negative ("not authentic"). It's up to him to make his positive case for a 1st century origin, contra the positive case for a medieval one.
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
6th December 2015, 09:03 AM | #1856 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 24,897
|
True, of course. However, for any ancient artefact, the null hypothesis is "age unknown, origin unknown". So any evidence that points to an age and/or origin is positive.
And in this light, it is indeed, as Jabba wants, it a question of weighing evidence in the case of conflicting hypotheses. Unfortunately for Jabba, all the weight turns out to be for a medieval origin. Hans |
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
|
7th December 2015, 05:48 PM | #1857 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
*Crickets Chirping*
|
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
8th December 2015, 04:01 AM | #1858 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
The support group for those suffering jabbatic withdrawal synd(r)one is over there. Others can continue to enjoy the deafening chanting of logic, and common sense, and decency, now preponderant here.
|
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
8th December 2015, 05:03 AM | #1859 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
|
Evidence - Expert Judgment/M&P/Repair/#2
From http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/chronology.pdf
Entry: #2 Date: 1976 Data Category: Evidence of anomalous nature of C-14 corner & Possibility or direct evidence of invisible reweaving Evidence: Textile expert Gilbert Raes of Belgium, who extracted a sample in 1973 for analysis, wrote in his report that he found cotton. Raes also noted, ―The thread used for sewing the two pieces [designated ―Piece 1‖ and ―Piece 2‖] together is…twisted in an S-direction, whereas the individual threads are twisted in a Z-direction. Source: Raes, Gilbert. ―Appendix B – Analysis Report: Pl. II-III—Subject: Examination of the ‗Sindone‘‖. In Doyle, E., M.Green, Fr., & V. Ossola (Trans.) Report of Turin Commission on the Holy Shroud (pp. 108-123), 1976. Unpublished. Translation of La S. Sindone: Ricerche e studi della Commissione di Esperti nominate dall‘Arcivescovo di Torino, Card. Michele Pellegrino, nel. Comments: The Raes sample is highly significant due to its thorough examination and adjacent location to the C-14 sample area. Given the stark differences between yarns found in the Raes‘ 2 Pieces 1 and 2, combined with the existence of the sewing thread, which connected the two disparate materials, Benford and Marino hypothesize that Piece 2 was the original Shroud material/seam and Piece 1 was a cotton-containing patch made to resemble the original Shroud cloth. (See: ―Surface Chemical Analysis of the Shroud of Turin Identifies Discrepancies in Radiocarbon Dating Region‖ by M. Sue Benford and Joseph Marino, presented at the ―The Shroud of Turin: Perspectives on a Multi-Faceted Enigma‖ conference in Columbus, Ohio on August 14-17th 2008, which will be accessible online at www.ohioshroudconference.com by January 1, 2009). Each piece exhibits different characteristics, such as cotton content, lignin content at the growth nodes, and thread size, suggesting two different origins of the yarns. The continuous, fully-observable sewing thread represents a significant change of technique, and suggests this section of thread, which incorporated the Raes sample and C-14 sample areas, was applied from the top instead of the reverse of the cloth. This further implies the two sections of sewing threads (C-14 region versus main Shroud) were applied at different times and by different artisans with the main Shroud stitching possibly from the same time period as a cloth from Masada in Israel, dated to BC 40 to AD 73 [M. Flury-Lemberg, Mechthild, Sindon N.S. Quad. 16 (Dec 2001., pg. 60)]. Raes himself would not commit in his report to a specific time period for the origin of the cloth. Regarding the S-direction versus the Z-direction, Raes is referring to the connection between the fabric and the seam; the two different twists indicate the existence of two different kinds of cloth. (See entry number 13 in this section.) Agatha, - Do you accept that the results of the study on the Raes sample suggests that it had been repaired? |
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
|
8th December 2015, 05:10 AM | #1860 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
Good Morning, Mr. Savage:
You are still dealing in "suggestion" and conjecture. Did you ever read this source? |
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
8th December 2015, 05:54 AM | #1861 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
Jabba, this is from the citation Slowvehicle provided above:
Quote:
|
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
8th December 2015, 07:02 AM | #1862 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,147
|
|
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
8th December 2015, 07:03 AM | #1863 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,147
|
|
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
8th December 2015, 07:21 AM | #1864 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
|
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
8th December 2015, 07:29 AM | #1865 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
8th December 2015, 08:10 AM | #1866 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
You were asked to indicate your familiarity with Marino and Prior's source material before proceeding. You were told several times why that was desirable. Are you simply ignoring that request? Shall we assume from your by-now deliberate avoidance of the question that the answer is the one least favorable to your position -- i.e., that you are unfamiliar with the sources?
|
8th December 2015, 09:38 AM | #1867 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
|
Evidence - Expert Judgment/M&P/Repair/#2
|
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
|
8th December 2015, 09:52 AM | #1868 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
|
Explain it on your fantasy map of the discussion.
|
8th December 2015, 09:54 AM | #1869 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
Good Morning, Mr. Savage:
I strongly recommend that you ever read this source, as a starting point. Sincerely, Yours, &ct. |
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
8th December 2015, 10:07 AM | #1870 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,670
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
|
8th December 2015, 10:26 AM | #1871 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
|
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
8th December 2015, 12:29 PM | #1872 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Perhaps one might consider the word "promptly" to be hyperbole given the glacial nature of this thread. Nevertheless, having had point #1 and Delorenzi thoroughly eviscerated, you abandoned the chronology document like the proverbial hot potato, instead preferring to move on to the addendum document which entirely ignores the Delorenzi fiasco. Fine, you have set aside the chronology document.
Well colour me in a rainbow of surprise. My unicorn needs diapers. So now, not only have you set aside the chronology document, you have set aside the addendum as well and are vaguely, without explanation trying to rehabilitate the chronology by stealth. Sorry, Jabba, you choose to throw the chronology document under the bus. Everyone agreed to address it point by point. We got as far as #1 and then you moved on to the addendum. Now you are attempting to throw the addendum under the bus in the hopes of reviving the still twitching corpse of the chronology document. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
8th December 2015, 12:49 PM | #1873 |
Alta Viro
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,307
|
Effective DebateTM at its finest.
|
8th December 2015, 01:38 PM | #1874 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
This thread is like a soap opera of the absurd. What preposterousness will Jabba pull next?
|
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
8th December 2015, 01:47 PM | #1875 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
Follow the little ball in #1871 and you'll get the answer.
|
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
8th December 2015, 01:59 PM | #1876 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 24,897
|
|
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
|
8th December 2015, 02:22 PM | #1877 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Are you attempting to Escher the thread?
Here is where we are at. I will number these because Effective DebateTM 1. Jabba proposes that the chronology document is somehow authoritative. -1.1 Jabba proposes that the points contained therein be addressed one at a time. - 1.2 We all start with point #1 and show #1 to be utterly without merit. - 1.3 Jabba abandons without moving along to #2. 2.0 Jabba decides to move to the addendum. - 2.1 The addendum gets similarly debunked for the rot it is. - 2.2 Jabba abandons the addendum. - 2.3 Jabba declines to provide any explanation. 3.0 Jabba returns to the chronology document as though nothing at all happened. Now, Jabba, before you start complaining, this is an accurate description of what actually happened right here in this very thread composed according to those rules that you seek to impose yet refuse to follow. So I ask you, what is one to do with this as an honest poster? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
8th December 2015, 02:38 PM | #1878 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
Don't forget that Jabba justified his decision to abandon the chronology for the addendum with the hypothesis that Marino and Prior also realized the chronology lacked rigor.
|
8th December 2015, 02:42 PM | #1879 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
|
Exactly what the animation depicts. When you say "he abandons" I only see him changing planes -not the ones with wings-. He has managed to derail this thread repeatedly by turning 90 Escherian degrees to the right and addressing other poster in order to set the fake debate into its new direction to in turn do the same again. He derails the thread not by being not responsive or ambiguous, which is not a violation of the MA per se, but by making false promises deliberately: he feigns to yield and offers a promise of an argumentation just to repeat what he has spammed before -also a MA violation- to turn course again when he is being entrapped by his own empty argumentation.
|
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over |
|
8th December 2015, 04:37 PM | #1880 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 38,373
|
|
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|