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10th December 2015, 01:30 PM | #1921 |
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That too is a pattern among fringe claimants. Most very quickly want to bog down in meta-debate over what evidence consists of and what are appropriate standards of proof. It takes a bit of experience to interpret this at the high level and recognize that the claimant is trying to contrive something that seems rigorous enough but avoids any meaningful scrutiny. He wants the standards set so low that even his flimsy nonsense is, by some circuitous construction, sufficient evidence.
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10th December 2015, 02:35 PM | #1922 |
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Carbon Dating/Doubts/Repair?/M&P/Entry #2
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10th December 2015, 02:40 PM | #1923 |
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10th December 2015, 02:42 PM | #1924 |
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10th December 2015, 03:09 PM | #1925 |
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10th December 2015, 03:21 PM | #1926 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
I find this remarkably disrespectful. I thought you said you had read the .pdf. It is clear you have not been reading my posts. What part of "...examined in situ..." do you find opaque? Go back, and read the .pdf, or the other sources on Mme. F-L that you claimed to be using when you claimed that she "doubted" the 14C dating. Or any one of my last several posts. I remain, Faithfully yours, &ct. |
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10th December 2015, 03:22 PM | #1927 |
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10th December 2015, 04:32 PM | #1928 |
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10th December 2015, 07:05 PM | #1929 |
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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10th December 2015, 07:30 PM | #1930 |
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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10th December 2015, 07:32 PM | #1931 |
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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10th December 2015, 11:43 PM | #1932 |
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Just drive. |
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11th December 2015, 04:33 AM | #1933 |
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11th December 2015, 04:37 AM | #1934 |
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11th December 2015, 04:37 AM | #1935 |
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Discussion Format
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico θ probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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11th December 2015, 04:38 AM | #1936 |
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon
1. He has searched for headlines that indicated someone's ideas that the shroud is the authentic burial shroud of the biblical Jesus, avoided reading the actual material, and assumed it is true. 2. He has avoided searching for headlines indicating someone's actual research indicating that the shroud is not the authentic burial shroud of the biblical Jesus. 3. When he has, by chance, come across the items described in #2 despite trying to avoid them, he has avoided reading the actual material and assumed it is not true. |
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11th December 2015, 04:55 AM | #1937 |
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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11th December 2015, 05:14 AM | #1938 |
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Oh, it's true. As Jabba has no evidence of a 2000 year old shroud impugning the reputation of the experts who have clearly demonstrated that the shroud is inauthentic (and scientists in general) was a favourite tactic a while ago. I dare say it'll come around again before too long.
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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11th December 2015, 05:37 AM | #1939 |
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11th December 2015, 05:44 AM | #1940 |
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11th December 2015, 05:52 AM | #1941 |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico θ probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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11th December 2015, 05:55 AM | #1942 |
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I beg to differ, if it was a deliberate work of art it then the art would be a lot better than it is. It's a slapdash bit of work by a huckster on the make.
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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11th December 2015, 05:56 AM | #1943 |
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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11th December 2015, 06:02 AM | #1944 |
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Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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11th December 2015, 06:03 AM | #1945 |
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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11th December 2015, 07:22 AM | #1946 |
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11th December 2015, 07:37 AM | #1947 |
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You've already confessed your incompetence. We don't need a detailed recitation of your failure to do the research required to understand your claims.
Quote:
I have repeatedly asked you to what extent you are familiar with the sources used by your vaunted authors Marino and Prior. You have rudely ignored me. This latest intransigence all but confirms your deliberate unwillingness to acknowledge or answer that question. Since I've asked it several times, in posts you've quoted, I can't accept that you simply missed it. I have to conclude you don't want to answer it because, just as with the sources describing Flury-Lemberg, you're utterly unacquainted with them. You're relying upon those authors to do your homework for you, just as you're begging others here to do your homework for you. There is no shortcut to erudition. You are not properly equipped to have this debate. |
11th December 2015, 07:41 AM | #1948 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
Why, yes, I do know some of what Mme. F-L did when she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting). Why do you ask? Much of her examination was discussed in the very source you used to pretend that Mme. F-L had "doubts" about the 14C dating (back when you were inverting the certainty of percentage). One of the results of her tests is that Mme. F-L has stated, unequivocally, that the sampled area is part and parcel of the CIQ; that there is no evidence of the "...patching...", the invention of which you have embraced to try to rescue the manifestly medieval bit of linen from the "wrong" date resulting from the most observed instance of 14C dating ever. As to reviling her, you (who have no experience with textiles at all) have accused her of incompetence, dishonesty, carelessness, duplicity, and complicity in nefarious conspiracy. How is that not more insulting than whatever secret you are keeping about however it is you claim I "insulted" you? Through it all, I remain, Faithfully yours, &ct. |
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11th December 2015, 07:43 AM | #1949 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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11th December 2015, 08:10 AM | #1950 |
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle
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11th December 2015, 08:10 AM | #1951 |
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11th December 2015, 10:37 AM | #1952 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
I admit to curiosity about this question. Since, as you have admitted, you do not have any expertise with textiles; and since, as you have admitted, you do not understand the process of 14C dating; and since, as you have admitted, you do not understand why Rogers' qualitative (as opposed to quantitative) vanilin degradation protocol, performed unobserved (and unrepeatably) in his home kitchen (on specimens of dubious provenance) is probative of almost nothing; why is it that you are asking about what "tests or instruments" Mme. F-L employed? It is enough, for your purposes, to know that (among other things) Mme. F-L handled the actual CIQ; and looked at the manifestly medieval linen from both sides (in multiple light sources, and even backlit). Her purpose in doing so was, among other things, to look for the evidence of any kind of patching, repair, reweave, or adulteration. As you, yourself, admitted, even a so-called "invisible" reweaving leaves visible traces on the back of the rewoven fabric (the places where threads overlap, the places where the original threads are severed). That (among other things) is the kind of thing Mme. F-L was looking for. Of course, all of that is made moot, for your purposes, by the fact ( a fact that you, yourself, provided) that an "invisible" reweave must be wrought with threads from the original cloth; which means that, even if an "invisible" reweave had been wrought it would not have, could not have, influenced the 14C dating (except to make the sample even more representative of the whole CIQ). All of this time you have spent hoping to be able to claim that some "expert" or another conjectures that there "may have been" some kind of repair has missed the point that such a "repair" wpould not have,could not have, affected the 14C dating. Further, even if the 14C dating were as lame, halt, and invalid as you have wished for, you would still have to overcome the historical, scriptural, anatomical, postural, and physics-related inadequacies of the respresentational image presented on the sized and gessoed surface of the CIQ. Here is a thought: instead of continuing to try to impugn the 14C dating, why not spend your energy presenting any evidence you can find that the CIQ is, in fact, ~2000 years old? Through it all, I patiently remain, Faithfully yours, &ct. |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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11th December 2015, 12:30 PM | #1953 |
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I'm glad you recognize her as "an esteemed textile expert," but your question about "tests or implements" makes me curious. Are you suggesting that if she simply made a careful examination of the shroud sans backing cloth without performing some sort of scientific test using "implements" that she didn't properly "do a science"? The labs at Arizona, Oxford, and Zurich performed tests on the shroud using an accelerated mass spectrometer, which, as I understand it, is quite an impressive "implement," and you don't like those results at all.
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12th December 2015, 08:59 AM | #1954 |
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Carbon Dating/Doubts/Repair?/M&P/Entry #2
- You guys are partially right. I did know that "...she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting)." But otherwise, she's claiming that any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. Yet, the study presented in Entry #2 claimed that when single threads from the Raes sample and C14 sample were examined under the microscope, certain anomalies did show up.
- Currently, I am doing the homework that everyone has suggested that I do, and I'll be back when I finish. - |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico θ probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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12th December 2015, 09:17 AM | #1955 |
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12th December 2015, 09:25 AM | #1956 |
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Carbon Dating/Doubts/Repair?/M&P/Entry #2
Slowvehicle,
- Was she able to look at both sides before the carbon dating? I don't think she was... - (I have to admit that if I find out that she wasn't, I'll make an unkind suggestion, but we humans (including Mme. F-L) are only human, and we 'seekers of the truth' shouldn't simply dismiss an unkind possibility about someone simply because it is unkind. That sounds familiar...) |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico θ probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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12th December 2015, 09:34 AM | #1957 |
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What's with the cryptic talk? Can you say what you mean and mean what you say?
Time is up. You've admitted you need a miracle, which means you have abandoned any scientific leanings. Admit your position is based on faith. I understand you love the idea of a thread going on ad vitam aeternam, but as a self professed christian, you should set the right example and try honesty. |
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12th December 2015, 09:35 AM | #1958 |
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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12th December 2015, 09:41 AM | #1959 |
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12th December 2015, 10:50 AM | #1960 |
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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