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12th December 2015, 11:06 AM | #1961 |
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You are not an expert in textiles. You do not know the best way to detect whether a cloth has been patched. You just beg the question that a microscopic examination of fibers is somehow more revealing or probative. Even in the best of circumstances, "anomalies" are not even remotely the same thing as "patch." Marino and Prior are simply once again extending flimsy findings far beyond what is possible to know from them.
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12th December 2015, 11:09 AM | #1962 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
This bit is, generously, an error. The very information you, yourself, provided about the "French" reweave (or the "invisible" reweave) stated outright that it could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric. Perhaps you would be so kind as to quote, specifically, with citation, where Mme. F-L makes the claim that "...any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. " I, for one, do not believe that she ever said that, or implied it. Not to mention, do you know what in situ means? If there were, in fact, "certain anomalies" between threads obsevred to be taken from a contiguous bit of the manifestly medieval linen, and threads removed form the linen and handled in various ways by numerous people, of which of the threads would an honest researched be more suspect? |
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12th December 2015, 11:14 AM | #1963 |
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You don't get to simply insinuate that she must be in error. If you believe she erred in her findings, you must prove it. And judging from the past incarnations of this topic in this thread, you are patently unable to do so.
Further, the human errors (I daresay deliberate falsehoods) of your authors Marino and Prior have been belabored and acknowledged by you. Yet you resist any and all attempts to examine the authors you have postured as a credible summary of expert testimony. Your suspicion is flagrantly one-sided.
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12th December 2015, 11:26 AM | #1964 |
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My dear Mr. Savage:
Are you going to suggest that the sampled area was ALL "...some patching", and that ALL of the "...patching" was taken up in the sample, leaving NONE on the CIQ itself; that the ENTIRE SAMPLE consisted of "...patching", and that NO ONE NOTICED the "...patching" while handling the sample? You sir, have admitted that you are not a weaver, and have demonstrated that you do not understand fabric. I am a weaver, and a seamster. I understand fabric. I assure you that, had there been the kind of tapered and lapped "invisible" reweaving you keel hoping for, the very act of cutting through it would have been texturally patent. You are grasping at straws, demonstrating once again that you are not seeking the truth about the CIQ, but seeking to support your assumed consequent. You might also question whether you have the experience, the expertise, and the knowledge (not to mention the impartiality) to comment on Mme. F-L's abilities. You have already reviled her. You have already accused her of scientific misconduct, personal dishonesty, stupidity, cupidity, and incompetence. It is clear that you dislike her findings. What is not clear is whether you understand why insulting her does your case for your assumed consequent no good at all. I also find it odd that you, who are so invested in your punctillio that you cannot even bear to identify how you, personally, claim to have been insulted, seem to be relishing and anticipating the mere possibility of saying something "unkind" about Mme. F-L. Why not spend your time marshaling, and presenting, any skerrick of evidence you have that positively indicates that the CIQ is, in fact, ~2000 years old? |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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12th December 2015, 11:47 AM | #1965 |
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12th December 2015, 02:21 PM | #1966 |
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The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
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12th December 2015, 02:55 PM | #1967 |
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12th December 2015, 04:09 PM | #1968 |
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Jabba,
There are now 1,968 replies in this 4th iteration of the CIQ authenticity debate. The best thing we have to look forward to is a fifth iteration, because you are getting nowhere. Any response? |
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12th December 2015, 09:59 PM | #1969 |
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In Jabba's defence, he isn't a self-professed Christian. He is a wanna-be Christian. That is, he can only be a Christian if Jesus really was who he said he was. Jabba was never specific about what exactly Jesus said about himself, but I suppose it was the word, the truth, and the way thing, whatever that means. Jabba can correct me if I'm wrong.
From that and from Jabba's occasional self-confessional posts, I got the impression that he needs the resurrection story to be true because he has some end-of-life issues and really wants to believe that he is somehow going to survive his own death. After all, if Jesus did, then why can't he? (Insert some silly Bayesian mental gymnastics here). I've been following this thread and its previous incarnations and offshoots since 2012 and have been vastly entertained and educated by it. Thank you to those who possess more patience and forbearance than I currently have. Back to lurking. |
12th December 2015, 10:52 PM | #1970 |
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13th December 2015, 02:29 AM | #1971 |
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13th December 2015, 09:11 AM | #1972 |
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13th December 2015, 09:30 AM | #1973 |
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No. I don't think he really does either, judging by all the waffling he does when he's really pressed to the wall. More than once I've seen him concede a point but then immediately retract it, sometimes even within the same sentence. It seems like such an odd thing to hang one's (wanna-be) religious hat on, when most of the religious people I know are content with something more personal like faith.
Back on topic, I was okay with the carbon-14 dating when it first came out, and other evidence presented in this thread and its previous incarnations have pretty much cemented my opinion that it's a medieval relic. It would take more than waffles to convince me otherwise. |
13th December 2015, 10:13 AM | #1974 |
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13th December 2015, 10:32 AM | #1975 |
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13th December 2015, 10:50 AM | #1976 |
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13th December 2015, 11:07 AM | #1977 |
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Hey! You two! Get a room already!
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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13th December 2015, 11:21 AM | #1978 |
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13th December 2015, 11:30 AM | #1979 |
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Yeah, welcome!
Actually, I don't for one moment believe that Jabba is trying to find Jesus this way. It's just the same tactics as others we have seen coming on here saying "I am a firm skeptic, but I just need an explanation for ......" It just gets a bit stale after so long. Jabba is a firm believer and is looking for something he can use to impress people who doubt. Not with much success, I might add... Hans |
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14th December 2015, 01:52 AM | #1980 |
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14th December 2015, 02:05 AM | #1981 | |||
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There's only one Wizzard.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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14th December 2015, 04:58 AM | #1982 |
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14th December 2015, 06:11 AM | #1983 | |||
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You may be a wizard (one 'z'), there is only one Wizzard (with two).
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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14th December 2015, 06:15 AM | #1984 |
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14th December 2015, 06:17 AM | #1985 |
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14th December 2015, 06:23 AM | #1986 |
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14th December 2015, 06:38 AM | #1987 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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14th December 2015, 07:12 AM | #1988 |
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14th December 2015, 07:35 AM | #1989 |
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Carbon Dating/Doubts/Repair?/M&P/Entry #2
Slowvehicle,
- Can you tell me where I, or the manual, stated outright that any repair (including repair with the original cloth) could always be seen, by the naked eye, from the back of the fabric? - I don't know that she has ever said that repair with the original cloth could not, but I think she has, and I'm 99% sure that other "experts" have. - I'll see what I can track down. |
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14th December 2015, 07:40 AM | #1990 |
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Your unfamiliarity with your own sources is not Slowvehicle's problem.
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14th December 2015, 07:44 AM | #1991 |
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14th December 2015, 08:26 AM | #1992 |
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14th December 2015, 08:38 AM | #1993 |
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14th December 2015, 08:43 AM | #1994 |
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14th December 2015, 08:43 AM | #1995 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
You, yourself, provided this information. You, yourself, contacted a reweaving firm, and posted their materials. You, yourself, even agreed with the material you posted--or, at least, for a time, seemed so to do. All of which is immaterial in the light of Mme. F-L (who has the expertise you do not) stating unequivocally that "invisible" repairs are plainly visible on the back of the repaired cloth, and that no such repair had been seen on the manifestly medieval linen of the CIQ. I remain, Patiently yours &ct. |
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14th December 2015, 08:44 AM | #1996 |
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14th December 2015, 08:47 AM | #1997 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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14th December 2015, 08:53 AM | #1998 |
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Seriously, Jabba: First-hand information from qualified people having handled the shroud says that there were no repairs in the C14 sample area.
Possibilities, speculations, and allegations cannot counter this. Unless you have expert-backed first-hand data indicating otherwise, this subject is dead. Stone dead. Forget it and move on. Hans |
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14th December 2015, 09:40 AM | #1999 |
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14th December 2015, 10:21 AM | #2000 |
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Apologies to the folks who want Jabba to do his own research. I was curious enough about the specifics of the technique to look for more info for my own knowledge, and then it seemed a waste not to share what I found.
Disclaimer: I’m a mediocre knitter, an abysmal seamstress and haven’t woven anything other than a placemat on a plastic loom when I was 6, so I welcome any corrections if my understanding of what I read is mistaken. Hi Jabba, In looking for more information about the French reweaving technique, I found this document with detailed instructions about the process. It has several images that may help you understand why a repair done using this technique will still be visible if one knows what to look for, even though it’s described as being an invisible repair technique. Before we get to images, go to page 22 of the book (page 24 of the pdf) and read the text under the header The Problem of Extra Thickness.
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If you scroll down to page 23 of the book (page 25 of the pdf), there’s Visualgram No. 6 at the top. That image shows how to begin the repair by starting the reweave several threads away from where the damaged area is. The reweave needs to overlap undamaged areas of the fabric to secure it. That’s the sort of thing that will make the end result visible. Scroll down to the next page, page 24 of the book (page 26 of the pdf) and at the bottom of that page is Visualgram No. 7. As the caption under that photo explains, the ends of the broken thread are visible, the thread that goes all the way across is the replacement thread, and the area where there are two threads side by side is the join that anchors the repaired area in place. Pages 26 and 27 of the book (pages 27 and 28 of the pdf) have Visualgram Nos. 8 and 9, demonstrating how the joins are staggered. Again, the rows where there are two threads overlapping are highly visible compared to the other single thread areas. Finally, the loose ends of the broken threads need to be trimmed and the instructions for that are on page 30 of the book (32 of the pdf). The first and third paragraphs under Visualgraph No. 10 instruct that if the ends of the trimmed threads are visible on the right side of the fabric, they should be pushed through to the back. Those thread ends won’t be seen on the right side of the fabric at that point, but they will be visible from the back side of the fabric. Regardless of the type of thread or the style of weave, these are the basic steps. There’s going to be some overlapping of threads and some ends that poke through to the reverse side. For a very fine weave using very fine threads, the overlap may indeed be invisible to the naked eye, from the right side at least. The Shroud of Turin, however, is not a fabric woven with what would be considered fine thread by today’s standards. Front and back images (original source here, pages 4-5) showing the thread and weave pattern of the Shroud of Turin. Please note that individual threads are very easily visible at 1:1 magnification (that is, with no magnification at all) and it would be very obvious if any of those threads were overlapping or doubled up as would be necessary for the French reweaving technique, or if any of the broken ends had been pushed through to the reverse side. Does that make sense, Jabba? French reweaving is invisible only in the sense that it is less visible than other methods of repairing woven fabric. |
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