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18th December 2015, 01:51 PM | #2161 |
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18th December 2015, 02:36 PM | #2162 |
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18th December 2015, 02:38 PM | #2163 |
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18th December 2015, 03:50 PM | #2164 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
It is dishonest of you to continue to pretend, as you do, that hypothetical expressions ("even IF it were possible for you to demonstrate a weakness...") represent actual situations ("...since you agree that the 14C dating is infirm, there has to be '...some patching'"). When do you intend to demonstrate that the CIQ must be ~2000 years old? I remain, Accurately yours, &ct. |
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18th December 2015, 04:49 PM | #2165 |
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18th December 2015, 08:30 PM | #2166 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
You should not make so free to paraphrase the words of others; especially when your "paraphrase" goes against the meaning of the original words. That is, simply, dishonest. It has been pointed out to you, multiple times, that the 14C date is only one of a multitude of indications that the CIQ is manifestly medieval. To say nothing of the fact that, even were you to prove that the 14C date (provided by the mostly scrutinized bit of carbon dating ever) was, in fact, demonstrable an Illuminati plot, you would sill have the anatomical absurdity, the postural impossibility, the scriptural disagreement, the historical inaccuracy, and the anti-gravity "hair" and "blood" of the representational byzantine-styled image on the sized and gessoed surface of a manifestly medieval bit of linen. When do you intend to begin producing any evidence that the CIQ is ~2000 years old? I remain, disappointedly yours, &ct. |
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18th December 2015, 11:08 PM | #2167 |
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19th December 2015, 02:32 AM | #2168 |
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Jabba,
No matter how small the steps, it's still vital to check into what you'll be treading... |
19th December 2015, 02:50 AM | #2169 |
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19th December 2015, 03:34 AM | #2170 |
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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19th December 2015, 08:53 AM | #2171 |
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19th December 2015, 09:10 AM | #2172 |
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19th December 2015, 09:20 AM | #2173 |
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19th December 2015, 10:07 AM | #2174 |
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19th December 2015, 10:15 AM | #2175 |
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19th December 2015, 10:36 AM | #2176 |
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You can claim that, but your argument style explicitly tends toward the opposite. You take my carefully and clearly worded posts and manipulate them as best you can to try to make them say something else. Equivocation, the mainstay of your argument, is the enemy of specificity.
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When may we expect you to deal with the actual arguments on the table, not the ones you fervently wish had been made instead? |
19th December 2015, 10:49 AM | #2177 |
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19th December 2015, 01:05 PM | #2178 |
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19th December 2015, 01:18 PM | #2179 |
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- You post assertions made by shroudies without examining the evidence and argument behind them.
- You do not engage with considered and detailed criticism of these. That's just plain rude. - You go off on these waffling and pointless tangents about what kind of framework would support authnticity. Only to come back and throw out the same debunked claims. - As far as any actual debate going on, this is easily the limpest defence of an idea I have ever seen on these forums. We have zero vigorous back and forth. This is not a debate because you will not engage with any counter argument. |
21st December 2015, 05:27 AM | #2180 |
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Jabba working on a reply as I type. Standby for evidence overload, naysayers!
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21st December 2015, 05:45 AM | #2181 |
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Oh, he's gone
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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21st December 2015, 10:33 AM | #2182 |
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Spend enough time reading fringe arguments and you discover this is all it ever is. There's rarely a debate over the strength of the actual evidence. Fringe argumentation is all about different patterns of trying to stack the deck to make what little (if any) evidence they have seem important or probative. The patterns very from genre to genre, but they all take some form of setting up ad hoc ground rules that favor their claims.
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21st December 2015, 05:21 PM | #2183 |
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Cool Hand J was back again this afternoon with a whole lot of nuthin'.
Is this how the thread will end? |
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21st December 2015, 05:31 PM | #2184 |
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Discussion Format
pgwenthold,
- That seems to imply that it does matter if I actually have some evidence of authenticity. Is that correct? - And here, I'm just trying to follow the directions encouraged by your colleagues -- so before I go back to what I think is evidence of authenticity, I need to show that the carbon dating is not a slam dunk. |
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21st December 2015, 05:42 PM | #2185 |
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For the third time, quit trying to have a fantasy debate in your mind. Quit trying to put words in your critics' mouths. Quit trying to elicit from them token acquiescence to spin as support. We're onto those tactics, in case it's not obvious.
The notion of preponderance requires you to have evidence to weigh. You have none. Therefore you cannot make an argument based on preponderance. Period, full stop, end of discussion. Is that clear enough for you?
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21st December 2015, 06:02 PM | #2186 |
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21st December 2015, 06:07 PM | #2187 |
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Jabba, for you to gain even the slightest traction in this "debate" you need to show some positive evidence for a 1st century origin for the shroud. Without that your entire argument is moot.
I've asked you this before, but I'll try again - if there were no evidence for a 13th century date, how would you convince me that the shroud originated in the 1st century? What evidence could you produce that actually points towards a 1st century date? Forget the 14C dating, forget the D'Arcis memo, forget that the cloth is sized and gessoed, forget it all. I'm standing in front of the Shroud of Turin, I know absolutely nothing about it, you tell me that it was the burial shroud of Jesus, and I ask, "How do you know?" Convince me. |
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22nd December 2015, 02:18 AM | #2188 |
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22nd December 2015, 05:47 AM | #2189 |
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This has of course all been said before. Ignored by Jabba each time but explained in a myriad of ways by many posters, many times. If this was a debate he might be vigorously questioning this position or arguing against it. To keep trying it on is dishonest.
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22nd December 2015, 07:11 AM | #2190 |
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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22nd December 2015, 07:49 AM | #2191 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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22nd December 2015, 08:53 AM | #2192 |
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Apparently someone told him that he's not allowed to do this until he's managed to cast sufficient doubt on the "slam dunk" carbon dating evidence. He'd make substantial progress on this if only people would engage in effective debateTM and follow each tiny thread's attempt to pick a hole in the carbon dating evidence to the very end without stopping it in its tracks with facts
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22nd December 2015, 09:45 AM | #2193 |
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22nd December 2015, 12:28 PM | #2194 |
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No, any attempt to discredit conflicting evidence should be done after you have presented your own positive evidence. Otherwise you are no closer to a first century date. It has been asked many times, but please (for the sake of this discussion) present your evidence toward a first century date of the shroud. It is no good saying the shroud isn't 700 years old if you never say why it is ~2000 years old. |
22nd December 2015, 12:31 PM | #2195 |
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Jabba has admitted he "has no such evidence."
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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22nd December 2015, 03:26 PM | #2196 |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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22nd December 2015, 03:32 PM | #2197 |
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22nd December 2015, 04:54 PM | #2198 |
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What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
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22nd December 2015, 06:31 PM | #2199 |
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We know what you don't agree with. Now, what is the evidence for it being the burial cloth of Jesus?
Remember, you have claimed that the reason we should question the C14 dating is because the preponderance of evidence for authenticity. yet, you have presented none. We're waiting... |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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22nd December 2015, 06:43 PM | #2200 |
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