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4th January 2016, 07:19 PM | #2321 |
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Maybe he misspelled "snarking"? Anyway, if the shoe fits...
I kid, I kid. It's clearly a figure of speech. I think it well captures the fierce doggedness with which some pursue this game. And while this thread does occasionally yield something interesting, I would say that what goes on here is quite charmless. |
4th January 2016, 07:23 PM | #2322 |
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5th January 2016, 01:04 AM | #2323 |
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5th January 2016, 01:23 AM | #2324 |
Mostly harmless
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Mostly.
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5th January 2016, 06:02 AM | #2325 |
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hugh farey: ISTR that you have indicated that apart from the C14 dating, you think that shroud is most likely authentic. I wonder if you could perhaps provide us with some evidence in favor of authenticity? All we've seen from Jabba, and lately David Mo and yourself, is attempts to call into question the evidence against authenticity. The problem is, even if you threw out the D'arcis memo, threw out the C14 dating, etc, there doesn't appear to be any evidence that actually points to a first century date, let alone tying it to a specific guy whose existence is somewhat in question. So why should anyone even consider the possibility of it being authentic?
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5th January 2016, 07:41 AM | #2326 |
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An observation: David and Hugh have both been active on shroudstory.com which, on a cursory glance, looked to be a good-natured place where people who have an interest in the Filthy Dishrag got together to discuss it at length. As someone says in response to Dan Porter's farewell
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Here the question is "show us the evidence?" The answer to this isn't, "your debating techniques are ineffective." This response will draw a lot of impolite comments. |
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5th January 2016, 11:36 AM | #2327 |
Penultimate Amazing
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See what I mean? Charmless.
And it's not even a good joke, is it? A thing--this thread for example--can lack both charm and harm. It's not a "fix" to swap one for the other. Anyway, why is it important to you to point out that this thread is harmless? Was there some implication that the thread might be harmful somehow? |
5th January 2016, 11:47 AM | #2328 |
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Very well, science cannot yet explain how the image was made, if by forgery as thought. But the claimants for authenticity cannot yet explain how the image was made, if by supernatural or any other speculative means.
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In the meantime it's far more parsimonious to believe in an as-yet undiscovered forgery method than in the claims made by Shroud enthusiasts.
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5th January 2016, 12:20 PM | #2329 |
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...especially since we don't know what it actually looked like when it was made. So to replicate the shroud, you have to wait 700 years to see if it comes out right.
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On the other hand, we know that, regardless of what it looked like originally, wrapping a body in a sheet will NOT give the image that is on the shroud, not immediately, and not in 2000 years.
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It's true, we may not know exactly how it was done, but we can say unequivocally how it was NOT done.
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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5th January 2016, 01:16 PM | #2330 |
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5th January 2016, 02:21 PM | #2331 |
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5th January 2016, 03:48 PM | #2332 |
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- I think I'm back.
- I'll try to present my evidence for the shroud being ~2000 yrs old. - Again, I admit that I have little, or no, direct evidence for it being ~2000 yrs old. But, I do think that I have a lot of circumstantial evidence. I'll try to present that evidence. - The trick here is that I simply cannot attend to nearly all of everyone's objections and questions (at least, not in any kind of timely manner)... Consequently, unless you guys can figure out a better way to determine what I should address next, I'll just have to decide for myself what seems the most important. - For now, I think the blood sub-issue is especially important, and I'll address that first. For instance, if you guys could convince me that the stains are probably not blood, I would probably give up the ghost... - Dinner time. |
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5th January 2016, 03:53 PM | #2333 |
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You've had all this time off where you should have got you evidence together, for once, and you immediately say, " I'll try to present that evidence." Yawn.
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5th January 2016, 04:19 PM | #2334 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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5th January 2016, 04:34 PM | #2335 |
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5th January 2016, 04:50 PM | #2336 |
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5th January 2016, 04:52 PM | #2337 |
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No.
This just resets the discussion back to a month or so ago when you tried to tell everyone that your rampant handwaving and speculation constituted some form of evidence and was probative by its sheer alleged volume. You presented nothing that qualified as any kind of evidence, and your presentation was all of two points, which you abandoned. You have neither anything qualifying as evidence (circumstantial or otherwise), nor an abundance of it.
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And before we let you change horses yet again to another of your well-worn subjects, let's be clear on the disposition of Marino and Prior so that we don't have to endure a likely return to it after you think your critics have forgotten your inability to understand or defend it. Since you rejected both documents (the chronology and the addendum) and gave no reason for suddenly returning to them before now abandoning them both again in favor of blood, will you agree not to attempt presenting Marino and Prior again? |
5th January 2016, 04:59 PM | #2338 |
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We all did the blood crackpottery several times already. Are you somehow suggesting that it is everyone else's fault that you didn't pay attention? Is that what you are trying to do? Yet another fringe reset? With no actual evidence pertaining, just a baseless claim that you have"some" evidence which you decline to share yet again? Do you really think that will fly?
Guess again, Jabba. |
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5th January 2016, 05:06 PM | #2339 |
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5th January 2016, 05:22 PM | #2340 |
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Actually, I do you one even better.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, they ARE blood. And? Explain how that is evidence for a 2000 year old burial cloth. Do you not think that there was blood available in the middle ages? ETA: BTW, before you pull the "it tips the scales" nonsense: NO, it doesn't. There is nothing about blood on the shroud that would suggest a preference for authenticity. It adds just as much weight to the non-authentic side as it does to the authentic side, so it does NOT tip the scales in either direction. |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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5th January 2016, 05:26 PM | #2341 |
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Fair enough, Jond (#2325), but YSTR the case from some time ago. I would love the Shroud to be authentic, same as I would love the Loch Ness Monster to be authentic (Why not? What fun weird and unlikely things are!), and like Houdini's search for authentic communication with the dead, I have searched the existing evidence (particularly that which had persuaded me of the authenticity of the shroud before I changed my mind), and carried out some research myself, to try to persuade myself that it is. Sadly, I have not, so far, succeeded, although I think there are a few historical grey areas which are so far inaccessible.
However, those "historical grey areas" which do not convince me are compelling to many others, and, coupled to a few other bits of geological and biological evidence, and the easy dismissal of many of the less precise arguments put forward in favour of a medieval provenance, constitute a large body of pro-authenticity support. The Shroud is, I think, an artefact of much wider general interest than almost any other historical object. It never ceases to surprise me, as I review recent publications for the BSTS newsletter, that fictional adventures involving the Shroud as a major part of the plot are published at the rate of about one a month. I do not know if the same can be said of the Mona Lisa, the Pyramids or any other religious artefact, but the Shroud is certainly up there with the best of them. What's more, it cannot be said that there is any overwhelming consensus either in favour, or against, authenticity. As such, it is a fair topic for debate, and anyone from either side could fairly call themselves 'skeptical' of the opinions of the others. There is a lot to be said for allowing this state of affairs to continue, but it is in the nature of Scientists not only to want to pin down the truth of the matter, but also to achieve at least a majority, if not universal consensus. Those who think the earth is spherical vastly outnumber those who think it flat, and perhaps there is little value in trying to persuade them otherwise, but opinions about the Shroud are far less polarised, which is why discussion about it is as plentiful now as it ever was. Filippo Lippi (#2326), are you sure you aren't deceiving yourself? If "thoroughly debunked" implies some kind of general acceptance, then nothing could be further from the truth. I do not think that the aim of internationalskeptics is simply to establish dogma, indeed, as a teacher myself, I think its aim is to educate people in rational exploration and 'critical thinking' (a phrase which occurs 4 times in the JREF mission statement page). This cannot be done by mere dismissal of the eccentric, and nor can it be done by less than critical thinking on the part of the critical thinkers themselves. Slowvehicle's last list of "arguments against authenticity" (#2270), which I know have been reiterated many times, and so have perhaps become less than precise more by neglect than intent, are all arguable, and, as we have seen, in some cases simply wrong. They are adequate for preaching to the already converted, and more than adequate against the pro-authenticist quarry this thread has been pursuing for so long, but wholly unlikely to educate more informed authenticists, who may begin to visit this site, into critical re-evaluation. Instead of the "I'm right you're wrong" approach of your comment, this thread would benefit from a "Why I'm right and why you're wrong" attitude. For instance, JayUtah claims that "Science can tell us the image is anatomically and gravitationally incorrect." Can it? Can JayUtah point to any comparative measurements that would substantiate his anatomical claim? I have myself attempted comparative measurements, but it is extremely difficult to define specific anatomical points on the Shroud from which to derive measurements to compare to standard, or even non-standard, human dimensions. Various forensic pathologists have attempted to assess the height of the man imaged in the Shroud, but the range of these (over 20cm) attests to the difficulty of the task. I should be very interested in JayUtah's evidence. By 'gravitational' I suppose JayUtah to be considering the image of the hair (although there are other gravitational considerations), which appears to look more like hair hanging vertically from a standing man than hair falling away from the face on a lying man. However this assumes that the image of the hair is a contact print. If the image were able to form at a distance, then the problem is negated. There seems to be a consensus among internationalskeptics commenters that authenticists are all stupid, and blind to the most obvious objections to their view. This is naive. Many of them, like myself, have spent years considering all the possible factors involved, and differ only in that, unlike myself, they consider that the preponderance of evidence points to authenticity rather than non-authenticity. |
5th January 2016, 05:32 PM | #2342 |
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5th January 2016, 05:42 PM | #2343 |
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5th January 2016, 05:42 PM | #2344 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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5th January 2016, 05:55 PM | #2345 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Exactly what I was alluding to. The Shroud devotees seem to think that speculating toward the supernatural somehow constitutes a valid explanation that should stand on par with more parsimonious conclusions. Outside the walled garden such speculation simply doesn't fly. It's far more parsimonious to explain the "hair" as a mistake made by an artist forgetting he was rendering a supine corpse than it is by some purported magical ability to create an image "at a distance."
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5th January 2016, 05:59 PM | #2346 |
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5th January 2016, 06:00 PM | #2347 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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5th January 2016, 06:03 PM | #2348 |
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5th January 2016, 06:08 PM | #2349 |
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My Dear Mr. Savage:
These are some hard bones you bring us. Well, let's see. Other than the fact that important trace elements, components of actual blood, are absent; and the fact that the iron is in forms commonly used in medieval pigments; and the fact that the amount of "blood" represented is inconsistent with a body prepared "as was the custom of the Jews" (i.e., washed); and the fact that the "blood" is represented as "flowing" in directions that ignore gravity; and the fact that the "blood" is represented as NOT demonstrating the capillary action and the adsorption and matting effects with which actual blood would react with cloth and hair; and the fact that the claimed "serum retraction rings" would be formed by any insoluble pigment in a liquid vehicle when daubed or dropped on a sized and gessoed fabric surface; I suppose what we are left with is the fact that dried blood is dark-brown-to-black in color, not bright red. Do you remember the "strike thirteen" post? Through it all, I remain, Triskadecaphilically yours, &ct. |
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5th January 2016, 06:20 PM | #2350 |
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5th January 2016, 06:44 PM | #2351 |
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@zooterkin and @hugh farey
Perhaps the two of you could work together to start a new shroud thread. I think with the demise of shroudstory, we might have an opportunity to attract new posters to this forum. I think it would be difficult for a new poster to dive into this series of threads. I have not posted in this thread, nor its immediate predecessor because it seemed pointless. The only person presenting the pro-authenticity side could not even remember his own original research. While I still followed the threads, they held all the charm (or harm) of a group of men kicking a homeless guy. I would really enjoy discussions about the shroud which is a fascinating artifact no matter what it is. We cannot promise a place as convivial as shroudstory, but perhaps we can promise a clean room to start in. I suppose that Hugh could probably just start his own thread, but there'd be a risk that it would just be merged with this monstrosity. That's why I'm suggesting that zooterkin gets involved. Ward |
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5th January 2016, 10:18 PM | #2352 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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5th January 2016, 11:24 PM | #2353 |
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So, Jabba, to at least one you present analogous to a feeble bum.
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6th January 2016, 12:20 AM | #2354 |
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What does that make you in this analogy?
Ward |
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6th January 2016, 01:26 AM | #2355 |
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Is there a period in history in which blood was in short supply? Even is in were blood, why would that support authenticity?
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6th January 2016, 01:47 AM | #2356 |
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6th January 2016, 02:16 AM | #2357 |
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6th January 2016, 02:23 AM | #2358 |
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It really does beggar belief that Jabba would declare an intention to present the evidence for the shroud being 2000 years old, and then promptly raise an issue which has no bearing whatsoever on the shroud's age.
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6th January 2016, 02:49 AM | #2359 |
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No, it doesn't mean "general acceptance," because some people have a desperate need for the shroud to be authentic. However, the carbon dating established that the shroud isn't 2000 years old. Why don't you lobby the Vatican to have the dating repeated if you're convinced it's wrong instead of your florid version of Jabba's "create the controversy."
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6th January 2016, 02:55 AM | #2360 |
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