IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , political speculation

Reply
Old 16th November 2016, 06:48 PM   #681
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,003
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think there's something that many here miss:

What are the chances of Trump enacting policies and legislation that actually further bigotry? Pretty close to zero.
Really? With Pence and Cruz and these others in charge? You don't think that they'll do everything in their power to make it more difficult for gay couples to marry or for trans people to get equal protection or for women to buy contraception or get abortions, etc.?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 06:52 PM   #682
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 10,265
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
To be fair, she actually claimed that half of Trumps supporters were racist/sexist/homophobic, and collectively referred to them as "deplorables". She didn't specifically say "racists are deplorable". She said that half of Trump's supporters are "deplorables"...

She outright insulted a quarter of the entire country.
Setting aside the rather clear fact that "a quarter of the entire country" did not vote for him, she labeled people as deplorable who, in her view, exhibited deplorable behavior.

Don't want to be called a thief, don't steal.
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 06:55 PM   #683
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 10,265
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm looking to *stop* people being dismissive of entire states, or entire groups of people for that matter.
Stop being dismissive of thieves, everybody!
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 07:10 PM   #684
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,279
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Funny how the Left has falsely charged every single Republican President with being racist, stupid, homophobic etc. Don't you realize most Americans have known of the Left's departure from the truth on these issues for some time now? You guys really need to come up with a new attack strategy and go to words. Chris B.
Got a source for your claim?

Republican presidents of my lifetime:

Eisenhower - a product of his times, I never heard him accused of racism, stupidity, or homophobia. Generally considered a pretty admirable person.

Nixon - sleazy and crooked, but not particularly racist for his times and certainly not stupid.

Reagan - OK, you got me there - except for the 'falsely' part.

Bush 1 - certainly not stupid or racist or particularly homophobic.

Bush 2 - dumber than a box of rocks but not a racist.

Trump - by his own words has labeled himself. Don't see how you could claim this is 'falsely'.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 07:16 PM   #685
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,279
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think there's something that many here miss:

What are the chances of Trump enacting policies and legislation that actually further bigotry? Pretty close to zero. But, along with the Republican control of Congress, he can reform taxes, health care, immigration and trade. Those are important things to a large group of Americans whether you agree with them or not. Thus, many people were able to overlook his perceived bigotry (because he can't act on it) and vote for him anyway (because he can act on the things that are important to them).
He could use his presidency to incentivize further bigotry. He has certainly demonstrated that as a candidate. Not the passage, but the enforcement of policies and legislation is where bigotry is usually felt.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 07:42 PM   #686
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,101
In my opinion voting for Trump is just unforgivable. It's like finding out your buddy raped a woman. There is no coming back from something so reprehensible. You just can't do something so vile and evil and continue to associate with me let alone stay my friend.
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Zingiber Officinale

Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 07:49 PM   #687
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 47,153
Emily's Cat, you may have posted this and I missed it. Which of Hillary's policies were going to make your life so unbearable that you couldn't vote for her?

Apologies if already answered, but this has been a fast moving thread.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 07:50 PM   #688
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,895
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think there's something that many here miss:

What are the chances of Trump enacting policies and legislation that actually further bigotry? Pretty close to zero. But, along with the Republican control of Congress, he can reform taxes, health care, immigration and trade. Those are important things to a large group of Americans whether you agree with them or not. Thus, many people were able to overlook his perceived bigotry (because he can't act on it) and vote for him anyway (because he can act on the things that are important to them).
The highlighted is ridiculous. Furthermore, the regime can affect the political and cultural tone, possibly for a long time.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 07:55 PM   #689
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 47,153
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
The highlighted is ridiculous. Furthermore, the regime can affect the political and cultural tone, possibly for a long time.
Indeed. In his next sentence xjx388 points out that Trump can change immigration policy. This will surely encourage bigotry. I can see those Mexicans and Muslims "left behind" attracting violence from bigots.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 07:58 PM   #690
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,895
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Emily's Cat, you may have posted this and I missed it. Which of Hillary's policies were going to make your life so unbearable that you couldn't vote for her?

Apologies if already answered, but this has been a fast moving thread.
I'd like to know just how despicable an opponent would have to be before EC wouldn't consider voting for him/her against Clinton? Buchanan? Duke?
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 08:18 PM   #691
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,732
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Funny how the Left has falsely charged every single Republican President with being racist, stupid, homophobic etc. Don't you realize most Americans have known of the Left's departure from the truth on these issues for some time now? You guys really need to come up with a new attack strategy and go to words. Chris B.
It's been a while, but I don't recall claims that Bush Jr. was racist or homophobic (maybe the latter, but I don't recall it). He certainly was a bit dumb, but looks like an intellectual these days.

I sure don't think of McCain or Romney as racist or stupid. Not sure about their opinions regarding homosexuality offhand.

Bush Sr. was not racist or stupid. His views about homosexuality may be a bit dated today.

I'm not part of the left, I think, but I don't think that the left claims what you say it claims. As far as Trump goes, not sure I'd call him homophobic, but he certainly does seem stupid and his views seem to be compatible with racists' views, and this matters.
phiwum is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 08:20 PM   #692
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,895
For a guy who isn't a gay-basher, he sure seems to make common cause with a lot of them.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 08:48 PM   #693
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 50,543
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
For a guy who isn't a gay-basher, he sure seems to make common cause with a lot of them.
What common cause, exactly, does he make? Be specific. Cite his cause.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 09:13 PM   #694
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,374
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Kind of scary, isn't it?
Kind of scary, but also kind of liberating. Now that we know the US is full of racist bigots, we don't have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

This election was a test. An opportunity for republicans to repudiate their image of being racist bigots who will go to any length to stay in power. A way for conservatives to prove that they are reasonable human beings who do have a conscience, and were just misunderstood. A last chance for Americans to show the World that they really are good people at heart. All they had to do was not vote for Trump.

But they did. So the air is finally cleared, and now the whole World knows what they really are.

There was a time when I had hope for America, but this is now gone. Liberals need to realize that no matter hard they try, they will lose - for the simple fact that they are in the minority. And it's never going to get better because the majority of Americans either like what's happening, or they just don't care. There is only one solution:-

Move To New Zealand
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 16th November 2016 at 09:14 PM.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 09:13 PM   #695
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,408
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Having trouble linking, but Reuters poll 28 June 2016 should find it for you.

It was online but with a sample size of 16000.
An online poll tends to reveal nothing more than that people who participate in online polls don't take them very seriously.

For evidence, I cite: Boaty McBoatface
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 09:20 PM   #696
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 25,474
Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
It is clear that Donald Trump is in touch with an awful group of Americans. The kind that hate people based on race, religion and county of origin. Americana that are ill informed if not just plain stupid and are easily sucked in by an authoritarian bully.
No doubt.

But among people who voted for him, what percentage meet that description? During the campaign, Hillary Clinton at one point said half of his voters were like that, though she later backed away from that estimate.

I think if she hadn't made that estimate in the first place, she would be president-elect right now. So it goes.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 09:30 PM   #697
ChrisBFRPKY
Illuminator
 
ChrisBFRPKY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,692
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It's been a while, but I don't recall claims that Bush Jr. was racist or homophobic (maybe the latter, but I don't recall it). He certainly was a bit dumb, but looks like an intellectual these days.

I sure don't think of McCain or Romney as racist or stupid. Not sure about their opinions regarding homosexuality offhand.

Bush Sr. was not racist or stupid. His views about homosexuality may be a bit dated today.

I'm not part of the left, I think, but I don't think that the left claims what you say it claims. As far as Trump goes, not sure I'd call him homophobic, but he certainly does seem stupid and his views seem to be compatible with racists' views, and this matters.
Every Republican Presidential candidate has always been labelled : Racist, Homophobic, stupid, etc. This is old news. It's the same during every single election. Ronald Reagan was branded a racist by the Left, Reagan! Likely the best example of polar opposite of a racist. It's kinda like crying wolf after awhile everyone simply refuses to believe it, however the charges remain and it happens in every Presidential election. Chris B.
ChrisBFRPKY is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 09:30 PM   #698
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,374
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But among people who voted for him, what percentage meet that description?
80%. the rest just want to watch the world burn.


Quote:
I think if she hadn't made that estimate in the first place, she would be president-elect right now.
More people voted for Trump because Hillary underestimated how many of them agreed with his ideas? Or did they vote for him to punish her for daring to call them out? Either way it's pretty ****** up.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 09:38 PM   #699
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,374
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Ronald Reagan was branded a racist... Reagan!
And Hillary Clinton was branded a racist by the Right. Hillary!

Quote:
the Left
It's kinda like crying wolf after awhile everyone simply refuses to believe it.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 09:40 PM   #700
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,680
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
More people voted for Trump because Hillary underestimated how many of them agreed with his ideas? Or did they vote for him to punish her for daring to call them out? Either way it's pretty ****** up.
Or they realised that she really was a nasty woman.
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2016, 09:45 PM   #701
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
Besides the amount of homophily creeping into this thread and the ISF forums, which gets more annoying with each passing month, some of you surprise me:

PT Barnum was right. It is 2016 and you believe that someone will fulfill campaign promises? I guess you believe in Santa Claus as well.
Sylvia Brown would welcome the lot of you with open arms.


PS: this guy has not yet taken office, and has yet to figure out his cabinet. I am disappointed in the amount of crystal ball gazing going on in a community of alleged skeptics. The only thing I see on the horizon, given the vast number of people he alienated during the last year and a half of campaigning, is that he has no mandate, and both the House and Senate will make his work to get anything done. (And I hear the GoP House leaders are looking at reversing the removal of earmarks ... a source of considerable trouble in Congressional deal making for about six years).

As I see it, Mr Trump has let his mouth write a bunch of checks he's going to have to cash, in terms of getting anything done, even small stuff, no less some of his more grandiose pronouncements.

Rather than waste time predicting, I'll be making popcorn. The floor show ought to be entertaining for the first 100 days, at least. (and in the mean time, the sky won't fall on your heads).
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

Last edited by Darth Rotor; 16th November 2016 at 09:50 PM.
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 01:11 AM   #702
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I saw that on Huffington Post. The thing he's talking about went into effect after 9/11 and ended in 2011, per HuffPo. So it lasted 3 years into Obama's administration.

ETA: I am not defending the guy, but if you read further down in the Reuters story it confirms that.
Now they're citing the internment of Japanese Americans to defend it.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 02:41 AM   #703
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 14,940
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If you can provide compelling evidence that the assumption* you're making is true for ALL members of a given grouping of people, I'll nominate your for a nobel prize. Otherwise, yes, that is exactly what prejudice is.

*Excluding group definitions. For example, assuming that "all people who have red hair" have red hair would be leveraging a group definition.
There is merit to this argument. I would encourage you, however, to work it through: there are definitions for what ideologies stand for, and these become logically associated with those supporting or espousing them. While there are excuses that can be made for the misled and simple, none can be made for the vast majority of healthy adults acting with full command of their senses, if and when, they act to place in high office someone repeatedly and willfully promoting ideas such as those of Trump the candidate. Otherwise, adult responsibility loses all meaning.

Given that, it behooves Trump supporters in particular to now clearly promote the message that it was economic concerns and legitimate differences of opinion that drove their votes, and loudly disavow the rest. Ain't happening, and ain't gonna, not until there's some stark fact that sends even the most rank into fits of horrified rejection and fleeing back to a semblance of decency. Like after WWII. Humanity has been there before, and mostly was avoiding being there again.... through the very same multilateralism and security arrangements Trump kicked in the nuts, for a global public. Now, we will most likely need to learn the hard way, again. Seems history and other books are mostly for burning these days.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 02:54 AM   #704
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,591
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think there's something that many here miss:

What are the chances of Trump enacting policies and legislation that actually further bigotry? <snip>
Depending on how you define bigotry, pretty high IMO:
  • His closest advisors are pressing ahead with plans for a Muslim Register
  • The GOP has a long history of enacting voter suppression legislation
  • There are very clear noises coming from the GOP regarding allowing discrimination on religious grounds at a state level
  • Defunding Planned Parenthood is a direct attack on those that use its services

Regarding the other stuff like economic reform, new trade deals and the like, its all pie in the sky apart from cutting taxes (and hence increasing the deficit).
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 02:56 AM   #705
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,742
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Besides the amount of homophily creeping into this thread and the ISF forums, which gets more annoying with each passing month, some of you surprise me:

PT Barnum was right. It is 2016 and you believe that someone will fulfill campaign promises? I guess you believe in Santa Claus as well.
Sylvia Brown would welcome the lot of you with open arms.


PS: this guy has not yet taken office, and has yet to figure out his cabinet. I am disappointed in the amount of crystal ball gazing going on in a community of alleged skeptics. The only thing I see on the horizon, given the vast number of people he alienated during the last year and a half of campaigning, is that he has no mandate, and both the House and Senate will make his work to get anything done. (And I hear the GoP House leaders are looking at reversing the removal of earmarks ... a source of considerable trouble in Congressional deal making for about six years).

As I see it, Mr Trump has let his mouth write a bunch of checks he's going to have to cash, in terms of getting anything done, even small stuff, no less some of his more grandiose pronouncements.

Rather than waste time predicting, I'll be making popcorn. The floor show ought to be entertaining for the first 100 days, at least. (and in the mean time, the sky won't fall on your heads).
Rather than make predictions... You'll just make your own predictions......
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 03:37 AM   #706
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 92,003
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Or they realised that she really was a nasty woman.
What does that even mean, "nasty"?

During the campaign she was accused of being dishonest. When it was shown that she lied less than the others, it was criminal. When the FBI failed to produce evidence of that, she was corrupt. Now nothing's come out of that either, so it's vague terms like "nasty". What do you mean by "nasty"?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 03:40 AM   #707
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,742
Being Hillary Clinton.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:01 AM   #708
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,709
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This rhetoric is tiring.

There's more to it than this, yet you consistently boil it up to "Almost all trump voters are either bigots, or they are okay with bigotry". You've completely dehumanized your opponents, and have made them shallow and one-dimensional. The entire approach you use casts them all as caricatures of evil, and completely ignores their actual concerns. It is my opinion that this is largely what has driven them to vote for Trump.

I still maintain that most Trump voters are NOT bigots. I do not believe that half the population is bigoted, or tolerant of bigotry. Clinton's position failed to address the concerns these people have, and the discourse has been focused around insinuating that their concerns don't matter. It's been repeatedly said, both now and prior to the election, that Trump's supporters are all ignorant racist hicks, that they're stupid and bigoted, that they only care about bigoted stupid things, and that they shouldn't be given any consideration. The discourse, both then and now, has doubled-down on vilifying and dismissing half the country.

I do NOT believe that most of his supporters are bigots. I do, however, believe that most of them are frightened of terrorists.
And of course they see all muslims as terrorists but that is to be expected, it isn't like they have anything to fear from the Dylan Roofs of this country. And hell many of them support the Bundys so they clearly can not be terrorists even if they do bag themselves for feds.
Quote:
I suspect that many of Trump's supporters have nothing at all against gay people, and would happily have equal rights for GLBTQ people. But it's not something that directly affects them.
Which is why they don't care what happens to them with Pence in the white house.
Quote:
I suspect that many of them are quite supportive of equal rights for minorities and women. But it's not something that directly affects them. It's something they support in principle.
Until it requires them to do something or confront their own biases.


It is like how feminists tried to make a big deal over trump using the P word calling that rape culture and sexual assault. That causes them to stop listening and give up.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:03 AM   #709
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,709
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It's hard to argue against the hilited bit. Trump's rhetoric made the bigotry pretty plain. Whatever else their reasons were for voting for him, they must have at least been okay with the bigotry because there's no denying that it was apparent.

Being okay with bigotry doesn't make you a bigot. But it does mean that accusing something or someone of bigotry isn't an effective argument on its own, because people'd just say "yeah, so?" THAT'S what the left needs to internalize.
And they get terribly insulted when called on their bigotry and totally shut down thinking.

These are plain americans they don't care what happens to muslims they care about non existent threats to their guns. Trying to make that sound like they don't care about what happens to muslims as some kind of bias against muslims just makes them stop listening to you.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:07 AM   #710
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,709
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I have already addressed this repeatedly, to you, so I wonder why you keep making the same incorrect statement? Half of Trump's supporters are not a quarter of the country. He got 61.3 mlion votes, half of that is 30.7million, or roughly 1/10 of the entire country.

On top of your faulty math, 40% of Trump supporters believe black people are more "lazy" than white people, and almost 50% think black people are more violent, according to a Reuters poll in June. That's about half of his supporters being racist, which makes her statement true without even adding in the homophobes and misogynists and Islamophobes.
But if you call them racist for that they just shut down and then their friends hate you for calling them racist and dehumanizing them for their opinions.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:08 AM   #711
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,709
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
This is simplistic and incorrect. It is perfectly possible not to be "OK with bigotry" and still vote for someone you think is a bigot.
Just like when you hang out with your friend who you know is a bit handsy with women it doesn't mean you condone sexual assault.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:12 AM   #712
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,591
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What does that even mean, "nasty"?

During the campaign she was accused of being dishonest. When it was shown that she lied less than the others, it was criminal. When the FBI failed to produce evidence of that, she was corrupt. Now nothing's come out of that either, so it's vague terms like "nasty". What do you mean by "nasty"?
But that's the most insidious form of dishonesty/criminality/corruption

With Hillary there were a bunch of allegations that had just about enough circumstantial evidence to get some kind of traction as an allegation but not enough clear evidence of wrongdoing to actually form a case.

The Clinton Foundation is IMO a good example. There's no doubt that it has received substantial donations from foreign organisations which strong links to foreign governments. It's also clear that some of those foreign governments have had access to senior US figures and have had some decisions made by the US government go their way. There is no clear evidence that the latter is the result of the former. The decisions were beyond Hillary's ability to influence and those countries have enjoyed similar relationships with other US administrations. The problem is that there is just enough there to allow people to believe that there is something amiss and that it has been covered up. This is because we have been told again and again that almost all politicians are crooked

OTOH Trump leaves a blazing great trail of misdeeds, obvious lies and blatant contradictions which is why he is inherently trustworthy
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:28 AM   #713
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,709
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
But how else can you reduce the real complex and even at times at-odds motivations and priorities of a human being down to a single one-dimensional caricature to rail at (while claiming not to be dehumanizing them)?
That way leads to viewing as voting for someone as endorsing them and their positions.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:31 AM   #714
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,709
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Unless you specifically voted for Clinton, yes you did.

In the U.S. system, there are only 2 parties that realistically have a chance of getting their candidate elected. (There are actually advantages to that as well as disadvantages.)

If you voted for Clinton, that was the only decision that did not favor trump. But from what I've seen here, that's not what you did.
It's ok because like the vast majority of america her vote didn't matter at all.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:35 AM   #715
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,709
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What common cause, exactly, does he make? Be specific. Cite his cause.
Hiring them to write his policies.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:36 AM   #716
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,709
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Every Republican Presidential candidate has always been labelled : Racist, Homophobic, stupid, etc. This is old news. It's the same during every single election. Ronald Reagan was branded a racist by the Left, Reagan! Likely the best example of polar opposite of a racist. It's kinda like crying wolf after awhile everyone simply refuses to believe it, however the charges remain and it happens in every Presidential election. Chris B.
So what was the skin color of his Welfare Queen?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 04:50 AM   #717
applecorped
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
And no lessons were learned
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 05:01 AM   #718
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 47,153
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
And no lessons were learned
Oh plenty were. Among them were the almost total irrelevance of one line posts purporting to add anything to such a complex event as a US election, and the ridiculous use of emoticons without context.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 05:03 AM   #719
Regnad Kcin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 10,265
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Or they realised that she really was a nasty woman.
No, just salivated on cue after 25 years of bell ringing by their Republican masters.
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2016, 05:17 AM   #720
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,901
Here is what I see - Trump is appeasing Democrats and moderates and others who are unsure about his viability with his talk about the ACA, telling people to tone things down, etc.

At the same time, he is choosing his most radical surrogates and supporters as his satraps to appeal to the white supremacy vote.

What will he do? Who knows?
__________________
"The presidentís voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesnít exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:44 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.