The Electric Comet Theory /SAFIRE Part V

[jonesdave116]

Here is a link to a post I made back in October 2019, in another thread;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12855704

Given that discussion of SAFIRE is now allowed in this thread, this seems the most appropriate place to carry it on. So, a quick summary from the previous;

EU have seemed keen to stress the independence of Aurtas, the company run by Montgomery Childs, head of the SAFIRE project, and themselves. And also from the funding being received. As was shown previously, the funds come through a charity called International Science Foundation. The contact for this group is/ was Susan Kaye Schirott. Her email contact was susan(at)thunderbolts.info! Since I wrote the previous post, the website of ISF that I linked has had all information removed. It is still there, but there is nothing to see. However, the internet never forgets, so here is a new link, courtesy of the good folks at Wayback, from 2016;

https://web.archive.org/web/20160917...n.org/contact/

I also found some info on the 'talk' page of RationalWiki;

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:E...niverse#SAFIRE

As you may find, the link to her facebook page also goes nowhere. However, the following link on that page does provide some information;

https://www.lucistrust.org/arcane_sc...e/a2013/ny2013

Scroll down to 3:30 PM, 27 April;

Quote:

The Spirit of Organization – Susan Schirott
Susan Schirott is the conference planner for the Thunderbolts project and Electric Universe movement. Susan will discuss planning and organisation in connection with "Law of Group Progress". This esoteric law embodies a cohering energy that transforms a group of people into "one living organism"

So, as already known, they have set up a charity with one of their own to administer it.

The question many sane people have been asking, is where the hell would they get the sums of money quoted (> $2m) for this 'experiment'? Nobody sane would throw money at this, surely? Apparently not! I had a read through this pdf;

https://bazaarmodel.net/ftp/Project-...ect-Report.pdf (caution: link directly opens a large pdf file full of bollocks). In that, on p.13, we find the following;

Quote:

Funding for an initial test was promised by the Mainwaring Archive Foundation, to be administered by the International Science Foundation.

As we have already determined that the ISF are a front charity set up by thunderbolts, then who are this Mainwaring Archive Foundation? A little bit of digging led to this;

https://projects.propublica.org/nonp...ions/527106931

Another charitable foundation. I randomly clicked on the form 990 pdf link for 2015, just to see what financial dealings they had. Lo and behold, on p.7 of the report (as numbered on the report itself), we find information about highly paid officers, trustees, etc. Head of the list is one David Talbott! Receiving the princely sum of $145 000 for 'production of book.' The other names there are also connected with EU and/ or Velikovsky. Scott Mainwaring writes the thunderbolts POTD pieces. van der Sluijs runs Mythopedia.
On p.11 we find a payment of > $1m to ISF for 'educational purposes.'

If we head down to the attachments, on p.19 as numbered by the pdf reader, we find details of more payments to EUists, including Stephen Smith who, from memory, runs the forum at woo central. Also there is Anne Marie de Grazia. She was the wife of well known Velikovskian, Alfred de Grazia;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_de_Grazia

Now, that particular year gives no real indication of where the funding comes from to be able to supply the EUists with such sums. However, if we skip to 2017 (p.15 of the pdf), we find a payment received of $900 000 from A. Bruce & Margaret Mainwaring.
Now, Bruce Mainwaring was known to both Velikovsky and Ralph Juergens (who invented this electric sun woo). He was also something to do with the crank Pensee magazine, back in the day.
That same year the Foundation gave another $800 000 to ISF.
If you scroll right towards the end of the report, there is an attached statement outlining the reasons for some of the payments and to whom they are made.

I am still at an early stage of picking through this rat's nest, but it is abundantly clear that the funding is most certainly not independent. Nor is ISF. The same people that pay Talbott are also paying Childs (the head of the SAFIRE project). It is also clear that Childs was known to the EUists prior to funding being sought. ISF did not just go out and find him! As the SAFIRE literature itself would seem to confirm.


So, why the cloak and dagger? Why set up a front charity to receive funds from another charity, to be then passed on to Childs' team? Do they want to hide the Velikovskian origins of the funding? Will that (in their warped minds) impact any claims they make? Be that about impossible electric suns, or about the free energy scam they have appeared to now set off on?

Who knows? However, claims of poverty, and not being able to afford computers, software, telescope time etc, etc, are now redundant. What they really lack is the people with the skills to be able to do anything with the aforementioned.

It all has a rather piscine odour about it, if you ask me.


EDIT:

Well, well, well! And as many other holes in the ground as you care to mention!

2010 report from the Mainwaring Foundation. Right towards the back end. $12 500 paid to the ever so independent, non-EU, non-Velikovskian, Anthony L. Peratt! For Prof. Serv. Presumably, professional services. I'd love to know what services they were!

[jonesdave116]

Things are now starting to make sense retrospectively. Back in the early 2000s, when the likes of Scott, Thornhill and Talbott had access to IEEE conferences, and the former two were getting 'papers' published in an IEEE journal, Peratt and his son, Matthias, were getting a fair whack from the Mainwaring Foundation. From 2001-2005, which is as far as I've got so far, they had copped for > $100 000. I wonder if the IEEE knew that Peratt was in the employ of Velikovskians, and then using his influence to get these EU clowns access to IEEE conferences and journals? Stinks to high heaven.

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by jonesdave116

Things are now starting to make sense retrospectively. Back in the early 2000s, when the likes of Scott, Thornhill and Talbott had access to IEEE conferences, and the former two were getting 'papers' published in an IEEE journal, Peratt and his son, Matthias, were getting a fair whack from the Mainwaring Foundation. From 2001-2005, which is as far as I've got so far, they had copped for > $100 000. I wonder if the IEEE knew that Peratt was in the employ of Velikovskians, and then using his influence to get these EU clowns access to IEEE conferences and journals? Stinks to high heaven.

I wonder if Anthony L. Peratt discovered that he was accepting money from Velikovskian cranks and explicitly dissociated himself from them on his Plasma Universe web site

Quote:

The Plasma Universe and Plasma Cosmology have no ties to the anti-science blogsites of the holoscience 'electric universe'.

Thornhill rants against science on his holoscience blog. That "blogsites" also suggests the main Thunderbolts cult's web site.

Or it may have been the content of

• Thornhill, W., “The Z-Pinch Morphology of Supernova 1987A and Electric Stars“, IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Aug. 2007, Volume: 35, Issue: 4, Part 1, Page(s): 832-844
• Ransom, C.J.; Thornhill, W., “Plasma-Generated Craters and Spherules“, IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Volume 35, Issue 4, Aug. 2007 Page(s):828 – 831
• Donald E. Scott, "Real Properties of Electromagnetic Fields and Plasma in the Cosmos",IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Volume 35, Issue: 4, 2007.

These are ignorant fantasies about astronomy and plasma physics which Peratt certainly knows about!

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Reality Check

These are ignorant fantasies about astronomy and plasma physics which Peratt certainly knows about!

Apologies for the snip. Peratt took a bung. As is obvious. I shall be contacting the IEEE to ask for their opinion of their former fruitloop taking a bung to allow access to conferences and journals. Is this something that happens at IEEE as a matter of course? "How much have you got?" "Sweet, I'll get you published."
Whatever reputation Peratt had (which, let's face it, was sod all) is about to disappear up the swaneee.

[jonesdave116]

From the Mainwaring Archives Foundation 2006 report;

[jonesdave116]

I created a spreadsheet to show the payments from Mainwaring Archives Foundation from 2001-2017, which is as far as the records currently go. Had to convert it to .pdf to upload it. Highlights?

Kronia Group/ David Talbott received US$2.05m in that period.

International Science Foundation (SAFIRE) received US$3.2m from 2014-2017

Anthony and Matthias Peratt jointly received US$287,333 from 2001-2010

[jonesdave116]

Hell's bells, this gets worse!

I hadn't listed a payment from MAF to ISF in 2013 of $345 000, as it is listed in their form 990 as:

International Foundation for Science
Karlavagen 108, 5th Floor SE-115 26
Stockholm Sweden

This is their website;

http://www.ifs.se/

Different name, and a seemingly legitimate entity, funding scientists in the third world. I'm thinking neither Canada nor the U.S. qualify for help from them!

However, having just located the 990 forms for ISF in Wisconsin, that money shows up in their accounts for 2013! Their 2018 form is also available, and that lists another $878 250 received. So, that takes their income from MAF to ~ $4.5m!

https://projects.propublica.org/nonp...ions/453344646

In addition, their form heading shows that they trade as "Institute for Venture Science." Now, I'd very recently been on their webpage, as I was researching James Ryder, part of the SAFIRE team. He was formerly of Lockheed-Martin, and is currently dead. Fairly recently (2018). The IVS has Gerard Pollack as its Executive Director. If the name sounds familiar, it is he of the EZ water woo.

Now, the 2013 990 form for ISF shows no employees, trustees etc, but the aforementioned Susan Schirott is named as the principal officer. The report, however, is signed by Frank Costanzo, CEO. This is confirmed by the IVS 'leadership' page;

https://ivscience.org/about-ivs#advisory-IVS

You can also see James Ryder and Gerald Pollack on there.

In the 2014 990 form from ISF, James Ryder shows up as president, with Susan Shirott as secretary - treasurer. Frank Costanzo is gone, and a private company in Wisconsin prepared the report for that year.

By 2015, we have three employees/ officers. The aforementioned Ryder and Schirott have been joined by Gerald Pollack, as 'Director'!

It is a very tangled web! Anybody know a forensic accountant?

[jonesdave116]

Right, something has become a little clearer; the Mainwaring Archives Foundation are classified as a private foundation. They must submit form 990-PF to the US IRS. Which they do.
Now, according to this document;

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4221pf.pdf

Quote:

The foundation must also maintain copies of any reports demonstrating that the funds are used for exempt purposes. If a private foundation distributes funds to other U.S. organizations, records must show whether they are exempt under section 501(c)(3), and whether the recipient organizations are classified as public charities or private foundations. If a private foundation distributes funds to non-U.S. organizations or to U.S. organizations that are not tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3), its records must demonstrate that the foundation exercises expenditure responsibility over the use of funds to avoid penalties for taxable expenditures under section 4945 (or that the private foundation determined the foreign organization to be the equivalent of a U.S. public charity). Visit the Life Cycle of a Private Foundation at www.irs.gov/eo for additional information about expenditure responsibility requirements and grants to foreign or non-exempt organizations.

Right, so Aurtas Inc, Childs' company, who are running the SAFIRE woo, are in Canada. That makes them a non-U.S. organisation, to state the bleedin' obvious. So, direct payment from the Mainwaring Archive Foundation to Aurtas, a private Canadian company, is a no-goer. Hence why the Thunderdolts lot have set up an intermediate charity in the form of International Science Foundation, to route the funds over the border to Monty and his crew.

So, ISF are not a private foundation, just a regular U.S. tax-exempt charity, and therefore must return form 990 to the IRS. Which they do.
What they do not appear to do, is make clear on those forms what the source of their income is. Which appears to be wholly from MAF. When setting up the charity;

Quote:

A new IRC Section 501(c)(3) organization will be classified as a public charity, and not a private foundation, during its first five years if it can show when it applies for tax-exempt status that it can reasonably expect to be publicly supported.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4221pc.pdf

Now, what exactly does 'publicly supported' mean? Does this include huge chunks of cash from a charitable private foundation? Who knows? Unfortunately, the IRS do not seem to have an email facility, so I may have to write to them.

Going back to a previous post; why was the initial $345 000 from MAF shown as being to the International Foundation for Science, in Sweden? The relevant regulations state that a private foundation must show that any grants to foreign entities, must be to those that can be shown to be the equivalent of a U.S. charity. The Swedish group are legitimate, and would certainly seem to qualify. Except that they never got the money. It went to ISF in Wisconsin! And thence to Canada. To a private company owned by Montgomery Childs.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Sol88]

Sounds like some sorta scam going on!



or a scandal at least... thunderbolts/SAFIRE as the ultimate deception artists!

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Sounds like some sorta scam going on!



or a scandal at least... thunderbolts/SAFIRE as the ultimate deception artists!

Thunderbolts are deception artists about the real world:
The thousands of insane lies, delusions, insults, etc. since 6 July 2009 from Sol88 about his cult's electric comet and electric Sun dogma.
But probably not financial scammers. They seem to be just directing the money from their gullible followers through legal hoops to get it where they want it to be. When a cult is small like Thunderbolts, it is not a surprise to see a few top member names popping up frequently in financial statements.

SAFIRE might be financial deception artists now that they have abandoned any pretense of doing science. They are just another "cold fusion" scam company with an actually deluded idea of fusion in basically a plasma globe! So they are scamming any potential investors, if any.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Reality Check

Thunderbolts are deception artists about the real world:
The thousands of insane lies, delusions, insults, etc. since 6 July 2009 from Sol88 about his cult's electric comet and electric Sun dogma.
But probably not financial scammers. They seem to be just directing the money from their gullible followers through legal hoops to get it where they want it to be. When a cult is small like Thunderbolts, it is not a surprise to see a few top member names popping up frequently in financial statements.

SAFIRE might be financial deception artists now that they have abandoned any pretense of doing science. They are just another "cold fusion" scam company with an actually deluded idea of fusion in basically a plasma globe! So they are scamming any potential investors, if any.

I read somewhere on a LENR forum earlier today, that they were looking for $9m investment from private backers! How true that is, I don't know. It would make sense, given that nobody in their right minds would chuck $4.5m at an experiment to prove something which is scientifically impossible, with no financial reward at the end.
OK, Childs might be ignorant enough of physics/ astrophysics/ plasma physics to offer to run the experiment, but Lowell Morgan? Surely he'd know better? I think this fortuitous discovery of over-unity output was planned all along. Call me a cynic! $4.5m, and not a single paper for the wooists to digest about the impossible electric sun? Not buying it. Somebody knew what was going on from an early stage, I'd say. The supposed discovery of transmutation (melted electrode!) is a very convenient excuse not to have to publish any details of how this impossible woo would work. And the acolytes will buy it hook, line and sinker.

Anyways, I sent an email to IEEE asking for a comment on Peratt's behaviour. Also to the Swedish charity who were shown as getting the first tranch of money from Mainwaring. And almost certainly didn't, as it mysteriously showed up in Wisconsin, before hurtling northward to Monty!

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by jonesdave116

I read somewhere on a LENR forum earlier today, that they were looking for $9m investment from private backers! How true that is, I don't know. It would make sense, given that nobody in their right minds would chuck $4.5m at an experiment to prove something which is scientifically impossible, with no financial reward at the end.
OK, Childs might be ignorant enough of physics/ astrophysics/ plasma physics to offer to run the experiment, but Lowell Morgan? Surely he'd know better?

Looking for investors is a standard tactic of crank LENR energy companies and they often get them. Venture capitalists are business people. They are prepared to invest in many high risk ventures in the expectation that just a few working out will give them a return. So we see people like Randall Mills, Andrea Rossi and others being bankrolled for decades and producing nothing. The same will probably happen for Childs.
I had hoped that Lowell Morgan was using Childs to do some actual plasma science because he did produce 1 standard plasma science paper. But that was 4 or 5 years ago and he seems still with Childs with no other papers. It is getting likely that Morgan has "drunk the Kool-Aid".

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Reality Check

Looking for investors is a standard tactic of crank LENR energy companies and they often get them. Venture capitalists are business people. They are prepared to invest in many high risk ventures in the expectation that just a few working out will give them a return. So we see people like Randall Mills, Andrea Rossi and others being bankrolled for decades and producing nothing. The same will probably happen for Childs.
I had hoped that Lowell Morgan was using Childs to do some actual plasma science because he did produce 1 standard plasma science paper. But that was 4 or 5 years ago and he seems still with Childs with no other papers. It is getting likely that Morgan has "drunk the Kool-Aid".

Yep, you are probably right. Sadly. However, if it gets about that the lead scientist wanted to test something that no rational scientist would consider possible, his credibility would plummet and the investors might be hard to find............................ oh, yeah. Randell Mills! Duh! They'll probably make a fortune!!
I thought about making a post along those lines on the LENR forum (I even signed up!), before realising that those clowns think Mills has discovered a sub-ground state level for H! That would make an electric sun entirely possible for people that believe that.

[jonesdave116]

Any fans of Dad's Army out there?

The IRS bust T-bolts, and catch them all in the electric office. The inspector stares at one of Mainwaring's accomplices, and says;

"What is your name?"

Mainwaring: "Don't tell him Dav.........."

Any of our American friends reading that won't have a clue what I'm on about. Captain Mainwaring was the main character in Dad's Army, a long running British comedy from the 60s and 70s, about the Home Guard;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YMVPXmaKds

[jonesdave116]

By the way - looking at the money thrown at Talbott, does even Stephen King get those sort of advances for his books? Given that it likely only sold a few dozen copies? And was only ever going to do so.

[Sol88]

Reminds me of the hoo-har that Sydney Chapman created to give us the Gaseous Sun!

Quote:

Chapman is recognised as one of the pioneers of solar-terrestrial physics.[4] This interest stemmed from his early work on the kinetic theory of gases. Chapman studied magnetic storms and aurorae, developing theories to explain their relation to the interaction of the Earth's magnetic field with the solar wind. He disputed and ridiculed the work of Kristian Birkeland and Hannes Alfvén, later adopting Birkeland's theories as his own.[12][13] Chapman and his first graduate student, V. C. A. Ferraro, predicted the presence of the magnetosphere in the early 1930s. They also predicted characteristics of the magnetosphere that were confirmed 30 years later by the Explorer 12 satellite.[5]

Bagged Birkeland and then claimed as his own....

Anywhoo, talking about his early work on the kinetic theory of gases...

History of the Gaseous Sun with Dr. Robitaille

Again is the Sun a GAS or PLASMA?

Explained much better than I could.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by jonesdave116

Yep, you are probably right. Sadly. However, if it gets about that the lead scientist wanted to test something that no rational scientist would consider possible, his credibility would plummet and the investors might be hard to find............................ oh, yeah. Randell Mills! Duh! They'll probably make a fortune!!
I thought about making a post along those lines on the LENR forum (I even signed up!), before realising that those clowns think Mills has discovered a sub-ground state level for H! That would make an electric sun entirely possible for people that believe that.

My understanding is SAFIRE are on to something BIG and there is money to be made. They do not want to end up like Nikola Tesla

So they are locking down any possible ways for others to get in.

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Reminds me of the hoo-har that Sydney Chapman created to give us the Gaseous Sun!
....

More of The thousands of insane lies, delusions, insults, etc. since 6 July 2009 from Sol88 about his cult's electric comet and electric Sun dogma..

A post irrelevant to his cult's demented electric comet or Sun dogma. Sydney Chapman

Quote:

Chapman is recognised as one of the pioneers of solar-terrestrial physics.[4] This interest stemmed from his early work on the kinetic theory of gases. Chapman studied magnetic storms and aurorae, developing theories to explain their relation to the interaction of the Earth's magnetic field with the solar wind. He disputed and ridiculed the work of Kristian Birkeland and Hannes Alfvén, later adopting Birkeland's theories as his own.[12][13]

Sol88's usual insane ignorance. The Sun is plasma. Plasma is partially ionized gas and can be treated as neutral gas on scales over the Debye length. This is meters for the Sun. This basic physics of the definition of plasma has been told to him many times, thus his insane level of ignorance !

Cites a YouTube video by the deluded crank Dr. Pierre-Marie Robitaille. He stupidly denies empirically verified laws of physics such as Kirchoff's Law. He had the insanely ignorant idea that oceans emitted the perfect black body in microwaves of the CMB when it is detected by instruments pointing away from Earth. WMAP and Planck were 1.5 million kilometers from Earth. His latest delusion is that the Suina is made of solid hydrogen.

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by Sol88

My understanding is SAFIRE are on to something BIG and there is money to be made.....

More of The thousands of insane lies, delusions, insults, etc. since 6 July 2009 from Sol88 about his cult's electric comet and electric Sun dogma..

Usual lies because Sol88 has no understanding of the delusion that was the SAFIRE project and the insanity that it has become. Montgomery Childs started with the ignorant delusion that the working and valid solar model was wrong and seemed to fall into the clutches of the demented Thunderbolts cult. Childs and the cult are ignorant of even first year astronomy. An externally powered Sun collapses to a white dwarf !
Now Childs and probably the Thunderbolts cult have fallen into the rabbit hole of LENR cranks. Child is touting his "plasma ball" as a power source transmuting elements. Like many of the other LENR/free energy crank companies, there will be lots of money spent and no money made.

A "So they are locking down any possible ways for others to get in" delusion. Nothing in the rather "incestuous" finance is a lock on their delusions. They have been using standard equipment and telling everyone about it!

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

My understanding is SAFIRE are on to something BIG and there is money to be made. They do not want to end up like Nikola Tesla

So they are locking down any possible ways for others to get in.

Nope. They fried an electrode. The idiots are too stupid to figure it out. Childs is a clown. Why do you think they have tried to hide the money trail? $4.5m on impossible woo? Seriously? If it gets out that the idiot Childs believes that woo, say goodbye to investment. And I will do my best to make sure that everybody knows that the incompetent clown believes in scientifically impossible rubbish. And that the funders of this woo are Velikovskians. And have been less than honest about where the money has gone.
Why do you think the clowns tried to hide the money trail? So badly that even I could trace it! Dumb, or what?
I am awaiting a reply to an email message to Sweden, and then a letter goes to the US IRS. Let's see the buggers run and hide after that, eh? Liars and cheats. Yes? As is shown.

EDIT:

For any of Sol's fabled lurkers; this stuff ain't going away. Good luck altering an already filed 990-PF report from 2013! You lied and you cheated. Independent, my arse. You knew the clown Childs before your fake charity was set up. It was only set up because you couldn't safely move money from the Velikovskian Mainwaring Foundation to Canada. The same foundation who paid David Talbott > $2m for being an idiot 'producing a book.' A book that nobody bought, nor read! And was never likely to. Oh that other authors got such advances!
You fund the Thunderdolts idiots, and you fund Childs. Do not even try to claim independence. Sol might be thick enough to buy this fairy tale, but I am not. And I doubt that the IRS, and prospective investors will be.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Reminds me of the hoo-har that Sydney Chapman created to give us the Gaseous Sun!



Bagged Birkeland and then claimed as his own....

Anywhoo, talking about his early work on the kinetic theory of gases...

History of the Gaseous Sun with Dr. Robitaille

Again is the Sun a GAS or PLASMA?

Explained much better than I could.

Robitaille is an idiot. Fail.

[Sol88]

Robitaille maybe an idiot but how about the Plagiariser Sydney Chapman?

He more or less gave you the gaseous Sun.

Amazing what mathamagics and assumptions can do, ay


Seems you are clutching at straws there champ.

or just like 'ol mate...

Quote:

He disputed and ridiculed the work of Kristian Birkeland and Hannes Alfvén, later adopting Birkeland's theories as his own

and


Along with your grand poobah, Einstein. What was his take on electric and magnetic fields commonly found in space?

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Robitaille maybe an idiot but how about the Plagiariser Sydney Chapman? ...

Insult of Sydney Chapman so no change from insulting scientists as in The thousands of insane lies, delusions, insults, etc. since 6 July 2009 from Sol88 about his cult's electric comet and electric Sun dogma..

Any scientist is free to use any published science. The phrase "adopting Birkeland's theories as his own" in a Wikipedia article does not mean plagiarism for the simple reason that Sol88 is the only one in the world accusing hi of that! It means that Chapman acknowledged Birkeland's valid work on aurorae and used it in his own theory. That left Birkeland's other speculations about the Sun, Saturn's rings, galaxies etc. as the invalid and ignored speculations they were.

A deluded "more or less gave you the gaseous Sun" lie when the Sydney Chapman Wiki clearly states he worked on the solar wind and its interaction with the Earth. Sol88 even quoted "Chapman is recognised as one of the pioneers of solar-terrestrial physics" .

ETA: It gets even worse - the video by the deluded Dr. Robitaille is "History of the Gaseous Sun with Dr. Robitaille" and he states that the Sun was already considered gaseous in 1865. Chapman was boring on 29 January 1888.
On the other hand Dr. Robitaille spouts a continuum of lies so we maybe cannot trust his history.
A delusion that there is no empirical evidence that the Sun is gaseous when we see and detect gas in the photosphere!
A delusion that we can observe the body of the Sun directly? The body of the Sun rings like a gas. Treating the entire Sun as a gas produces the conditions needed for the fusion that produces the neutrinos we detect.
A delusion that a plasma cannot be treated as an ideal gas (in the appropriate limits).
A small delusion that the Sun being a gas is "in part a tradition". It is a couple of centuries of empirical evidence that shows that the Sun is a gas and the failure of other states of mater. It is not a solid or liquid which only leaves a plasma/gas. That couple of centuries of empirical evidence is the tradition!
A delusion that it is math that makes the Sun into a gas when it is the match of the math to the real Sun (this is a thing called science!).
Then he gets to the history.
A deluded lie that continuous spectra only come from solids. The continuum is standard modern plasma physics (not known in 1865 or to him!).
A delusion that the Sun has a "real/true surface" when we see the photosphere boiling, etc.
Back to his deluded "white light only from a solid" lie and thus his delusion that the photosphere is a sold surface because it emits white light.

Rather deluded irrelevancy of Einstein (who worked on gravity and quantum mechanics mostly) take on electric and magnetic fields commonly found in space. It would be the same as any rational, knowledgeable person - they exist and act according to the laws of electromagnetic !

[Sol88]

Quote:

It would be the same as any rational, knowledgeable person - they exist and act according to the laws of electromagnetic !

Thanks RC


So back to the electric fields in play at 67P, do they also act according to the laws of electromagnetism?

or you are still happy to use assumptions?

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So back to the electric fields in play at 67P, do they also act according to the laws of electromagnetism?

Of course they do, it's just that you do not understand the laws aof electromagnetism.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Sol88

My understanding is SAFIRE are on to something BIG and there is money to be made.

Well, as a believer, this must seem to be a sure way for you to get rich!

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by steenkh

Well, as a believer, this must seem to be a sure way for you to get rich!

Somebody may well get rich from this scam, but it won't be the investors!

Here's some Velikovskian money going to Sweden (allegedly), and then turning up in Wisconsin!

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Of course they do, it's just that you do not understand the laws aof electromagnetism.

Because the dust is charged, would you class this as a dusty plasma, tusenfem?

If so, would this charged dust respond to the laws of the standard garden variety of electromagnetisim?

[Sol88]

Quote:

The Rosetta mission provided the first direct evidence for the presence of electrically charged dust particles in a coma.

Cometary Dust

So, if it was the first direct evidence of the dust being charged it would never have been incorporated into the standard widely believed model of the dirty snowball, the first quantitative model, which envisioned cometary nuclei as mostly ice, although our understanding has been evolving more toward mostly rock, particularly for 67P/C-G for which refractory/volatile ratios as high as 6 have been cited.

Would the standard widely believed model now have to incorporate dusty plasma?

As per D.A. Mendis and M. Horányi DUSTY PLASMA EFFECTS IN COMETS: EXPECTATIONS FOR ROSETTA



Ahh, good old laws of electromagnetism and its application to comets...

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Cometary Dust

So, if it was the first direct evidence of the dust being charged it would never have been incorporated into the standard widely believed model of the dirty snowball, the first quantitative model, which envisioned cometary nuclei as mostly ice, although our understanding has been evolving more toward mostly rock, particularly for 67P/C-G for which refractory/volatile ratios as high as 6 have been cited.

Would the standard widely believed model now have to incorporate dusty plasma?

As per D.A. Mendis and M. Horányi DUSTY PLASMA EFFECTS IN COMETS: EXPECTATIONS FOR ROSETTA



Ahh, good old laws of electromagnetism and its application to comets...

What the hell are you on about now? Dusty plasma has been expected to be present at comets for decades. Due to there being visible dust at comets!

Let's go back to before your Velikovskian cult was formed, shall we?

DUSTY PLASMAS IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM
Goertz, C. K. (1989)
http://homepage.physics.uiowa.edu/~r...7_271_1989.pdf

A mere 1718 citations. Just because you are ignorant of such things, does not mean others are. Putting 'comets; dusty plasma' into Google Scholar, with a cut-off date of 1990, brings up 573 results.


And there is no rock at comets. Never been seen.

[Sol88]

So use it!

Quote:

Quote:
The Rosetta mission provided the first direct evidence for the presence of electrically charged dust particles in a coma.

You do know the meaning of first, yeah?

Cheers for the paper. Standard laws of electromagnetism, now apply them to the dusty plasma sourounding a comet.

You bet.

But if you happy playing with gas laws....

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So use it!



You do know the meaning of first, yeah?

Cheers for the paper. Standard laws of electromagnetism, now apply them to the dusty plasma sourounding a comet.

You bet.

But if you happy playing with gas laws....

And more gibberish and lies. Just because this was the first direct detection does not mean that it wasn't expected to be there, and came as a big surprise to everybody. As I have just shown by linking to one of hundreds of papers that I could have linked. Rosetta got a longer look than other missions, but the processes had long been known about, as the paper you linked tells you, if you'd bothered to read it.

[Sol88]

Cheers jd116, this along with rock are needed for the electric comet.

Thanks again.

Quote:

The physical consequences include electrostatic levitation and blow-off of dust from the charged cometary nucleus and electrostatic disruption and erosion of charge dust in the cometary plasma environment. The dynamical consequence arises from the new electrodynamic forces that charged dust grains experience in the magnetized plasma environment of the comet.

DUSTY PLASMA EFFECTS INCOMETS: EXPECTATIONS FOR ROSETTA D.A. Mendis1 and M. Horányi2


Well...

Quote:

Conclusions. In the framework of the presented model, which can be considered common in terms of assumptions and physical parameters in the cometary community, the dust removal by a gas drag force is not a plausible physical mechanism. The sublimation of not only water ice, but also of super-volatile ice (i.e., CO) is unable to remove dust grains for illumination conditions corresponding to 1.3 AU. Awayoutof this impasse requires revision of the most common model assumption employed by the cometary community

Mmmmm..... jonesdave116. You still seem to struggle with the facts.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Cheers jd116, this along with rock are needed for the electric comet.

Thanks again.

DUSTY PLASMA EFFECTS INCOMETS: EXPECTATIONS FOR ROSETTA D.A. Mendis1 and M. Horányi2


Well...

Mmmmm..... jonesdave116. You still seem to struggle with the facts.

And you seem to struggle with comprehension. It has already been explained that levitation of dust will happen on asteroids more than on comets. And that it will not happen at comets when they are most active. And has nothing to do with any EU woo, having been in mainstream literature for decades before your cult was formed. And sublimation most certainly lifts the dust, and it has nothing to do with any electric woo. So, you are just repeating the same old crap. Your woo failed. Try dealing with that.

Quote:

Cheers jd116, this along with rock are needed for the electric comet.

And there is no rock. So that is another failure. And Thornhill said there would be no dust. So, get your story straight.

[jonesdave116]

Another paper involving Sol's favourite, Jan Deca, which seems to have passed him by;

A Fully Kinetic Perspective of Electron Acceleration around a Weakly Outgassing Comet
Divin, A. et al.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...13/ab6662/meta

Part of the abstract;

Quote:

The cometary mission Rosetta has shown the presence of higher-than-expected suprathermal electron fluxes. In this study, using 3D fully kinetic electromagnetic simulations of the interaction of the solar wind with a comet, we constrain the kinetic mechanism that is responsible for the bulk electron energization that creates the suprathermal distribution from the warm background of solar wind electrons. We identify and characterize the magnetic field-aligned ambipolar electric field that ensures quasi-neutrality and traps warm electrons.

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by Sol88

...

Insanity that electric fields anywhere do not follow the laws of electromagnetism .

Sol88's usual "assumptions" stupidity. We use the working laws of physics and measurements of comets and the Sun. The compositions of comets are measured - they are not his demented dogma of rock. We measure the environment around the Sun and there is no massive electric currents as in his demented dogma of the Sun. We observe comets and that Sun and nothing supports his demented dogma. etc. etc.

Sol88 and his demented cult dogma have deluded fantasies that ignore the laws of physics and measurements. Take a tiny example: A conservative estimate of the mass of all comets is 17 times the mass of the Earth and these idiots want comets to be magically blasted from Earth, Mercury, Venus and Mars. His demented cult predicts that we do not exist !
Even if we just look at known comets, there may be enough energy released to keep the surfaces of all rocky planets molten for long periods. Earth has not had thousands of mass extinction events caused by his demented dogma of thousands of massive energy releases lifting billions of tonnes of rock (Comet 67P has a mass of 10 billion tonnes and their delusion is that it is much more massive!).

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by Sol88

...

The thousands of insane lies, delusions, insults, etc. since 6 July 2009 from Sol88 about his cult's electric comet and electric Sun dogma..
Sol88's usual lie that charged dust is part of his demented cult dogma when there never has been a citation to even his cult's web site.

Charged dust is part of the mainstream ices and dust comet model. It is easily understood physics. A comet has ices and dust. Comet 67P has a measured dust layer on its surface ! The cometary ice must sublimate when a comet gets close to the Sun from our working laws of physics and experiments. The gas produced will eject dust into the coma which we then observe in the coma! Sunlight and the solar wind will charge the dust.

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by Sol88

...

Sol88 repeats his charged dust insanity from The thousands of insane lies, delusions, insults, etc. since 6 July 2009 from Sol88 about his cult's electric comet and electric Sun dogma. and adds:
Sol88 cannot understand the simple English of "first direct evidence" or "EXPECTATIONS FOR ROSETTA" !

The Rosetta mission provided the first direct evidence for the presence of electrically charged dust particles in a coma because it was the first spacecraft with instruments capable of detecting electrically charged dust particles placed into a comet coma !

Mendis, D.A., and M. Horányi (2013), Dusty plasma effects in comets: Expectations for Rosetta, Rev. Geophys., 51,53–75, doi:10.1002/rog.20005 was published before Rosetta arrived at 67P !

The mainstream ices and dust comet model has included charged dust for what looks like over 30 years as suggested by the citation of "The physics of comets D. A. Mendis, H. L. F. Houpis, M. L. Marconi Fund. Mod. Phys., 1985". Electrostatic charging of dust recognized in [Notni,1966]!

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So use it!



You do know the meaning of first, yeah?

Cheers for the paper. Standard laws of electromagnetism, now apply them to the dusty plasma sourounding a comet.

You bet.

But if you happy playing with gas laws....

You might want to look up in a dictionary what the definition of "first detected is.
Comprehensive reading, of course, is rather difficult.

[Reality Check]

Originally Posted by Sol88

...

Repeats Sol88 cannot understand the simple English of "first direct evidence" or "EXPECTATIONS FOR ROSETTA" !
Adds a lie by changing his highlight to "first direct evidence" when Sol88 had the idiotic highlight of

Quote:

The Rosetta mission provided the first direct evidence for the presence of electrically charged dust particles in a coma.

from Cometary Dust

Charged dust was included in the mainstream ices and dust model for many decades before Rosetta because we had detected dust at comets and textbook physics stated that it would be charged by sunlight and the solar wind. Probably confirmed indirectly by the behavior of dust at comets! Rosetta was the first spacecraft capable of directly detecting charged dust in a coma.