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Old 11th October 2019, 01:47 AM   #1041
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
I have often wondered which EU regulations are supposed to be so bad.
The imaginary ones. The ones that would have banned prawn cocktail crisps, bendy bananas, British sausages, three pin plugs. The one that meant we cant extradite Abu Hamza (yes I know), the one that means all 16 year olds will be conscripted into the EU Army, that won't let us have good, British, listeria in our kippers, or old newsprint on our fish & chips, and takes away our veto in 2022. Basically all the made up stuff, much of which came from the Telegraph which ran a steady drip, drip, drip of silly, untrue, scare stories most of which came from the imagination of a power hungry 'journalist' they picked up from the Times after he was fired for lying. Step forward Boris Johnson.
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:28 AM   #1042
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
This is nonsense and you know it. At the time of the votes it was THE LAW that we would leave on Halloween either with or without a deal. Mogg and others mostly voted against May's deal because they thought no deal was a better way of leaving.

Mogg changed to voting for the deal on the third occasion because, by then he feared that remainers were in the ascendancy and that the choice was between May's deal and no Brexit at all. He has since stated that he now regrets having voted for the deal.

It's clear that Mogg and other ERG members, whether or not they voted for May's deal once, are all committed to leaving the EU. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.

The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility.
That inability to agree will plague the UK for decades after leaving with a no deal, if that is what happens.

A no deal condemns the UK to a limbo existence where we are still very dependent on the EU, but have no say in what goes on in Europe. Where we are more reliant on the USA than before, but a USA that is more isolationist and disrespectful to the UK than it has been for decades. Where we are trying to get new deals with China and India, where we have a poor colonial legacy and baggage and they are now more powerful than we are. The WTO will become the next sapper of sovereignty from the UK, as people realise it has rules, we have to abide in them and we have no say in what happens.

The politicians will indulge in a huge blame game and no one will take responsibility and no one will be able to negotiate ourselves out of the mess.
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:32 AM   #1043
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
You are missing the point.

May's deal would have delivered the referendum promise to leave the EU. That leavers opposed it shows us that we can not assume that any particular leave deal has the popular support. We can not say that May's deal is what the public voted for. Similarly we can not say that a hard brexit is what people voted for.
You have shown the referendum can not be relied upon. Thank you for that.
You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal?

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:54 AM   #1044
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Because leaving without a deal would be a ******* catastrophe.
Which has been explained over and over again, but you persist in going "la la la la la".

And it would not even be a case of "getting Brexit done" as a No Deal would be only the start of proceedings, unless you think (which, frankly, wouldn't surprise me) that the UK would be prosperous sat on the sidelines under WTO terms with our largest trading partner.
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Old 11th October 2019, 03:09 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Because leaving without a deal would be a ******* catastrophe.
Yeah, but some really rich people will become much, much richer.

The movers and shakers of the UK won't be subject to new EU tax laws.

Putin gets what he wants, which is a destabilised west. His shills have worked hard for that.


Brexit is doing exactly as it is intended to do.
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:15 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
As you know, I didn't think that was a good way to leave the EU. I'm glad it didn't pass and that we now have a chance to leave the EU in a more complete manner.
What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU?
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:23 AM   #1047
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Where we’re at:

OUR ENEMY
The EU - anyone who sides with them is a collaborator who has “surrendered”.

OUR ALLY
A man who is happy to give the green light for murderous attacks on former allies because “they didn’t fight in Normandy” etc
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:33 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal?

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.
I ignored your point as you defeated it yourself straight after. It was not a binary issue as refusing to back May's deal also gave the possibility that Brexit could be delayed or cancelled.
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:39 AM   #1049
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal?

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.

Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they?
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:46 AM   #1050
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4 myths about what the public thinks about Brexit tackled

TL/DR version:

Rather than voters wanting to "Get Brexit Done" 2/3rds of the public believe it's more important to get the right terms than to leave quickly.

Rather than nobody having changed their minds about Brexit, 20% of voters have changed their minds, and most of the movement is towards Remain. If a second referendum were to happen, Remain would likely win. with 53% of the vote.

Rather than Leave winning again if nobody changed their mind, the death of older voters and younger people now being eligible to vote means that even if 100% of people who voted last time voted the same way again, Remain would likely still win.

Rather than baulking at the thought of a second referendum, more than 2/3rds of the public want there to be one.
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:46 AM   #1051
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they?
Come on, when it comes to sovereignty everyone knows Parliament is the enemy of the people. As well as the UK constitution and the UK legal system also being the enemy of the people
In fact seeing recent polling and the popular support for remaining, it is now obvious that the people are the enemy of the people.

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Old 11th October 2019, 04:47 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they?
Most seem to be supporter of Carl Schmitt and his führerprinzip.

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Old 11th October 2019, 05:29 AM   #1053
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Interesting video from an ardent Remainer describing what may have just happened in Ireland and how this will lead to a no-deal.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Summary:
  • Boris Johnson has likely agreed to a deal involving a border in the Irish Sea
  • He brings this deal to parliament
  • Parliament approves it
  • There isn't sufficient time to pass the other legislation to enable the deal to be put into law by 31 October
  • The UK crashes out with no deal as planned

The ERG and DUP vote in favour of the deal because they know that the deal will never actually be implemented.
Any deal legislation would surely include a technical extension?
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Old 11th October 2019, 05:32 AM   #1054
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal?

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.
its called parliamentary democracy mate. not a fan?
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Old 11th October 2019, 06:49 AM   #1055
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility.
Irony so heavy light cannot escape it...
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Old 11th October 2019, 06:52 AM   #1056
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
Or "taking back control". I have often wondered which EU regulations are supposed to be so bad.
Leaver supporters seem to be incapable of identifying any such regulations, once all the made-up stuff in the British pro-Leave press has been excluded.
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Old 11th October 2019, 07:00 AM   #1057
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Leaver supporters seem to be incapable of identifying any such regulations, once all the made-up stuff in the British pro-Leave press has been excluded.
When you say 'British Press', in many, if not most instances, you mean the current PM...
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Old 11th October 2019, 07:00 AM   #1058
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.
Really? How did they know that they'd get the chance due to Leavers being so spectacularly unable to get their act together?
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:19 AM   #1059
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? How did they know that they'd get the chance due to Leavers being so spectacularly unable to get their act together?
They weren't certain of course, but it looked like they had the numbers. Also, they had the speaker on their side - by the unwritten constitution, the speaker is supposed to act as an impartial umpire, but Bercow is far from impartial.
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:37 AM   #1060
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
They weren't certain of course, but it looked like they had the numbers. Also, they had the speaker on their side - by the unwritten constitution, the speaker is supposed to act as an impartial umpire, but Bercow is far from impartial.
It is his job to put the will of parliament before that of the Government. He has done that very well. Why do you hate British parliamentary sovereignty?
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:37 AM   #1061
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ceptimus, you seem to have missed my question from earlier. I'll ask it again: What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU?
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:41 AM   #1062
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Breaking:

Boris way more in Putin's pocket than was suspected.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...287363585.html


Farrage and the other anti-Europe terrorist don't vote.

Except just this once, just now, when they voted against a measure designed to fight foreign powers interfering in domestic politics.

I'm going with 'terrorists' and 'traitors'
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:42 AM   #1063
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
ceptimus, you seem to have missed my question from earlier. I'll ask it again: What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU?
It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy.

And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st.

As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:45 AM   #1064
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Why do you hate British parliamentary sovereignty?
Because the MPs, Lords, and officials that comprise parliament are mostly liars and/or incompetents who refuse or are unable to keep the promises they made to the electorate.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:51 AM   #1065
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy.

And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st.

As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied.
Well that of course has to be recent reason, back in the day before the likes of Mogg and Smith were voting against leaving what was your view of what the advantages were?
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:57 AM   #1066
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy.

And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st.

As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied.
Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots.
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Old 11th October 2019, 10:03 AM   #1067
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots.

Hear, hear. Can I steal it?
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Old 11th October 2019, 10:27 AM   #1068
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots.
Careful! You don't want to get too worked up, you could suffer a nosebleed or worse!

May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass. Thankfully May was eventually sacked. Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through.
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Old 11th October 2019, 10:29 AM   #1069
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well that of course has to be recent reason, back in the day before the likes of Mogg and Smith were voting against leaving what was your view of what the advantages were?
I told you many times. Perhaps your memory is failing.
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:05 AM   #1070
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through.
Simply leaving not quite good enough for you? It has to be 'properly'? Please define 'properly', and show where that definition appeared in the referendum campaign.
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:21 AM   #1071
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Careful! You don't want to get too worked up, you could suffer a nosebleed or worse!
It is hard to judge emotion from the written word. Don't confuse ridicule with anger. I am not angry you hold your opinions. I am pointing out how ill informed they are.
Quote:

May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass. Thankfully May was eventually sacked. Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through.
Where on the referendum paper did it say we were not to leave on a crappy deal? The problem you are getting into ruling out crappy deals is in deciding what is crappy. That has to lead to the final exit arrangements (deal or no deal) being put to the people.

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Old 11th October 2019, 11:26 AM   #1072
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I told you many times. Perhaps your memory is failing.
Have you? Sorry but I don't recall - can you link to a post?
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Old 11th October 2019, 12:02 PM   #1073
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass.
I think the EU knew it was going to be a crappy deal before anyone in the UK caught on. They certainly wouldn't have violated international law and its own founding principles just to give the UK a more sweetheart deal than it got while in the EU. May's deal was crappy but it was probably the best deal possible. Any other deal will look remarkably similar to it.
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Old 11th October 2019, 12:37 PM   #1074
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Mays deal looked crappy only because membership of the EU is better than any and all possible deals. It is just about degrees of crap.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:22 PM   #1075
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The GBP today seems to think that emerging noises mean EU-UK will do a deal that probably keeps NI in the EU customs union and that this can't be vetoed as time passes by unionist parties alone.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:27 PM   #1076
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Because the MPs, Lords, and officials that comprise parliament are mostly liars and/or incompetents who refuse or are unable to keep the promises they made to the electorate.
SO you want one man rule instead?
Nice.
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:23 PM   #1077
Garrison
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Because the MPs, Lords, and officials that comprise parliament are mostly liars and/or incompetents who refuse or are unable to keep the promises they made to the electorate.
And yet you don't seem to feel Johnson should honour the promises he made during the referendum campaign...
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:26 PM   #1078
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On the matter of future trade deals can't say the recent fracas with the NBA and Blizzard give me a great deal of confidence when it comes to a deal with China, I mean the NBA has far more leverage with China than the UK...
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Old 11th October 2019, 03:42 PM   #1079
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negotiations have ensued,

Looks like boris has had a quiet word with arlene foster regarding stormont and made the DUP rethink some borderlike things.
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Old 11th October 2019, 05:50 PM   #1080
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If Ireland can live with it, the rest of the EU can probably, too.
But I don't trust Johnson not to renege on a deal as soon as he has a majority.
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