[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero - Page 27

P.J. Denyer · 11th October 2019, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

I have often wondered which EU regulations are supposed to be so bad.

The imaginary ones. The ones that would have banned prawn cocktail crisps, bendy bananas, British sausages, three pin plugs. The one that meant we cant extradite Abu Hamza (yes I know), the one that means all 16 year olds will be conscripted into the EU Army, that won't let us have good, British, listeria in our kippers, or old newsprint on our fish & chips, and takes away our veto in 2022. Basically all the made up stuff, much of which came from the Telegraph which ran a steady drip, drip, drip of silly, untrue, scare stories most of which came from the imagination of a power hungry 'journalist' they picked up from the Times after he was fired for lying. Step forward Boris Johnson.

Nessie · 11th October 2019, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

This is nonsense and you know it. At the time of the votes it was THE LAW that we would leave on Halloween either with or without a deal. Mogg and others mostly voted against May's deal because they thought no deal was a better way of leaving.

Mogg changed to voting for the deal on the third occasion because, by then he feared that remainers were in the ascendancy and that the choice was between May's deal and no Brexit at all. He has since stated that he now regrets having voted for the deal.

It's clear that Mogg and other ERG members, whether or not they voted for May's deal once, are all committed to leaving the EU. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.

The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility.

That inability to agree will plague the UK for decades after leaving with a no deal, if that is what happens.

A no deal condemns the UK to a limbo existence where we are still very dependent on the EU, but have no say in what goes on in Europe. Where we are more reliant on the USA than before, but a USA that is more isolationist and disrespectful to the UK than it has been for decades. Where we are trying to get new deals with China and India, where we have a poor colonial legacy and baggage and they are now more powerful than we are. The WTO will become the next sapper of sovereignty from the UK, as people realise it has rules, we have to abide in them and we have no say in what happens.

The politicians will indulge in a huge blame game and no one will take responsibility and no one will be able to negotiate ourselves out of the mess.

ceptimus · 11th October 2019, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

You are missing the point.

May's deal would have delivered the referendum promise to leave the EU. That leavers opposed it shows us that we can not assume that any particular leave deal has the popular support. We can not say that May's deal is what the public voted for. Similarly we can not say that a hard brexit is what people voted for.
You have shown the referendum can not be relied upon. Thank you for that.

You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal?

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.

Tolls · 11th October 2019, 02:54 AM

Because leaving without a deal would be a ******* catastrophe.
Which has been explained over and over again, but you persist in going "la la la la la".

And it would not even be a case of "getting Brexit done" as a No Deal would be only the start of proceedings, unless you think (which, frankly, wouldn't surprise me) that the UK would be prosperous sat on the sidelines under WTO terms with our largest trading partner.

3point14 · 11th October 2019, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Tolls

Because leaving without a deal would be a ******* catastrophe.

Yeah, but some really rich people will become much, much richer.

The movers and shakers of the UK won't be subject to new EU tax laws.

Putin gets what he wants, which is a destabilised west. His shills have worked hard for that.

Brexit is doing exactly as it is intended to do.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 11th October 2019, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

As you know, I didn't think that was a good way to leave the EU. I'm glad it didn't pass and that we now have a chance to leave the EU in a more complete manner.

What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU?

Captain_Swoop · 11th October 2019, 04:23 AM

Where we’re at:

OUR ENEMY
The EU - anyone who sides with them is a collaborator who has “surrendered”.

OUR ALLY
A man who is happy to give the green light for murderous attacks on former allies because “they didn’t fight in Normandy” etc

Lothian · 11th October 2019, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal?

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.

I ignored your point as you defeated it yourself straight after. It was not a binary issue as refusing to back May's deal also gave the possibility that Brexit could be delayed or cancelled.

Mojo · 11th October 2019, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal?

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.

Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they?

Squeegee Beckenheim · 11th October 2019, 04:46 AM

4 myths about what the public thinks about Brexit tackled

TL/DR version:

Rather than voters wanting to "Get Brexit Done" 2/3rds of the public believe it's more important to get the right terms than to leave quickly.

Rather than nobody having changed their minds about Brexit, 20% of voters have changed their minds, and most of the movement is towards Remain. If a second referendum were to happen, Remain would likely win. with 53% of the vote.

Rather than Leave winning again if nobody changed their mind, the death of older voters and younger people now being eligible to vote means that even if 100% of people who voted last time voted the same way again, Remain would likely still win.

Rather than baulking at the thought of a second referendum, more than 2/3rds of the public want there to be one.

Lothian · 11th October 2019, 04:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they?

Come on, when it comes to sovereignty everyone knows Parliament is the enemy of the people. As well as the UK constitution and the UK legal system also being the enemy of the people
In fact seeing recent polling and the popular support for remaining, it is now obvious that the people are the enemy of the people.

McHrozni · 11th October 2019, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they?

Most seem to be supporter of Carl Schmitt and his führerprinzip.

McHrozni

Archie Gemmill Goal · 11th October 2019, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Interesting video from an ardent Remainer describing what may have just happened in Ireland and how this will lead to a no-deal.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Summary:

Boris Johnson has likely agreed to a deal involving a border in the Irish Sea
He brings this deal to parliament
Parliament approves it
There isn't sufficient time to pass the other legislation to enable the deal to be put into law by 31 October
The UK crashes out with no deal as planned

The ERG and DUP vote in favour of the deal because they know that the deal will never actually be implemented.

Any deal legislation would surely include a technical extension?

Archie Gemmill Goal · 11th October 2019, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal?

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.

its called parliamentary democracy mate. not a fan?

Information Analyst · 11th October 2019, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility.

Irony so heavy light cannot escape it...

Information Analyst · 11th October 2019, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

Or "taking back control". I have often wondered which EU regulations are supposed to be so bad.

Leaver supporters seem to be incapable of identifying any such regulations, once all the made-up stuff in the British pro-Leave press has been excluded.

3point14 · 11th October 2019, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Information Analyst

Leaver supporters seem to be incapable of identifying any such regulations, once all the made-up stuff in the British pro-Leave press has been excluded.

When you say 'British Press', in many, if not most instances, you mean the current PM...

Information Analyst · 11th October 2019, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.

Really? How did they know that they'd get the chance due to Leavers being so spectacularly unable to get their act together?

ceptimus · 11th October 2019, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Information Analyst

Really? How did they know that they'd get the chance due to Leavers being so spectacularly unable to get their act together?

They weren't certain of course, but it looked like they had the numbers. Also, they had the speaker on their side - by the unwritten constitution, the speaker is supposed to act as an impartial umpire, but Bercow is far from impartial.

Lothian · 11th October 2019, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

They weren't certain of course, but it looked like they had the numbers. Also, they had the speaker on their side - by the unwritten constitution, the speaker is supposed to act as an impartial umpire, but Bercow is far from impartial.

It is his job to put the will of parliament before that of the Government. He has done that very well. Why do you hate British parliamentary sovereignty?

Squeegee Beckenheim · 11th October 2019, 08:37 AM

ceptimus, you seem to have missed my question from earlier. I'll ask it again: What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU?

3point14 · 11th October 2019, 08:41 AM

Breaking:

Boris way more in Putin's pocket than was suspected.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...287363585.html

Farrage and the other anti-Europe terrorist don't vote.

Except just this once, just now, when they voted against a measure designed to fight foreign powers interfering in domestic politics.

I'm going with 'terrorists' and 'traitors'

ceptimus · 11th October 2019, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

ceptimus, you seem to have missed my question from earlier. I'll ask it again: What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU?

It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy.

And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st.

As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied.

ceptimus · 11th October 2019, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Why do you hate British parliamentary sovereignty?

Because the MPs, Lords, and officials that comprise parliament are mostly liars and/or incompetents who refuse or are unable to keep the promises they made to the electorate.

Darat · 11th October 2019, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy.

And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st.

As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied.

Well that of course has to be recent reason, back in the day before the likes of Mogg and Smith were voting against leaving what was your view of what the advantages were?

Lothian · 11th October 2019, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy.

And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st.

As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied.

Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots.

3point14 · 11th October 2019, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots.

Hear, hear. Can I steal it?

ceptimus · 11th October 2019, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots.

Careful! You don't want to get too worked up, you could suffer a nosebleed or worse!

May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass. Thankfully May was eventually sacked. Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through.

ceptimus · 11th October 2019, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Well that of course has to be recent reason, back in the day before the likes of Mogg and Smith were voting against leaving what was your view of what the advantages were?

I told you many times. Perhaps your memory is failing.

GlennB · 11th October 2019, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through.

Simply leaving not quite good enough for you? It has to be 'properly'? Please define 'properly', and show where that definition appeared in the referendum campaign.

Lothian · 11th October 2019, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Careful! You don't want to get too worked up, you could suffer a nosebleed or worse!

It is hard to judge emotion from the written word. Don't confuse ridicule with anger. I am not angry you hold your opinions. I am pointing out how ill informed they are.

Quote:

May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass. Thankfully May was eventually sacked. Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through.

Where on the referendum paper did it say we were not to leave on a crappy deal? The problem you are getting into ruling out crappy deals is in deciding what is crappy. That has to lead to the final exit arrangements (deal or no deal) being put to the people.

Darat · 11th October 2019, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

I told you many times. Perhaps your memory is failing.

Have you? Sorry but I don't recall - can you link to a post?

Earthborn · 11th October 2019, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass.

I think the EU knew it was going to be a crappy deal before anyone in the UK caught on. They certainly wouldn't have violated international law and its own founding principles just to give the UK a more sweetheart deal than it got while in the EU. May's deal was crappy but it was probably the best deal possible. Any other deal will look remarkably similar to it.

Nessie · 11th October 2019, 12:37 PM

Mays deal looked crappy only because membership of the EU is better than any and all possible deals. It is just about degrees of crap.

Francesca R · 11th October 2019, 01:22 PM

The GBP today seems to think that emerging noises mean EU-UK will do a deal that probably keeps NI in the EU customs union and that this can't be vetoed as time passes by unionist parties alone.

dudalb · 11th October 2019, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Because the MPs, Lords, and officials that comprise parliament are mostly liars and/or incompetents who refuse or are unable to keep the promises they made to the electorate.

SO you want one man rule instead?
Nice.

Garrison · 11th October 2019, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Because the MPs, Lords, and officials that comprise parliament are mostly liars and/or incompetents who refuse or are unable to keep the promises they made to the electorate.

And yet you don't seem to feel Johnson should honour the promises he made during the referendum campaign...

Garrison · 11th October 2019, 02:26 PM

On the matter of future trade deals can't say the recent fracas with the NBA and Blizzard give me a great deal of confidence when it comes to a deal with China, I mean the NBA has far more leverage with China than the UK...

p0lka · 11th October 2019, 03:42 PM

negotiations have ensued,

Looks like boris has had a quiet word with arlene foster regarding stormont and made the DUP rethink some borderlike things.

The Great Zaganza · 11th October 2019, 05:50 PM

If Ireland can live with it, the rest of the EU can probably, too.
But I don't trust Johnson not to renege on a deal as soon as he has a majority.

11th October 2019, 01:47 AM	#1041
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,997	Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng I have often wondered which EU regulations are supposed to be so bad. The imaginary ones. The ones that would have banned prawn cocktail crisps, bendy bananas, British sausages, three pin plugs. The one that meant we cant extradite Abu Hamza (yes I know), the one that means all 16 year olds will be conscripted into the EU Army, that won't let us have good, British, listeria in our kippers, or old newsprint on our fish & chips, and takes away our veto in 2022. Basically all the made up stuff, much of which came from the Telegraph which ran a steady drip, drip, drip of silly, untrue, scare stories most of which came from the imagination of a power hungry 'journalist' they picked up from the Times after he was fired for lying. Step forward Boris Johnson.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,997	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

11th October 2019, 02:28 AM	#1042
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,107	Originally Posted by ceptimus This is nonsense and you know it. At the time of the votes it was THE LAW that we would leave on Halloween either with or without a deal. Mogg and others mostly voted against May's deal because they thought no deal was a better way of leaving. Mogg changed to voting for the deal on the third occasion because, by then he feared that remainers were in the ascendancy and that the choice was between May's deal and no Brexit at all. He has since stated that he now regrets having voted for the deal. It's clear that Mogg and other ERG members, whether or not they voted for May's deal once, are all committed to leaving the EU. Only an idiot would argue otherwise. The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility. That inability to agree will plague the UK for decades after leaving with a no deal, if that is what happens. A no deal condemns the UK to a limbo existence where we are still very dependent on the EU, but have no say in what goes on in Europe. Where we are more reliant on the USA than before, but a USA that is more isolationist and disrespectful to the UK than it has been for decades. Where we are trying to get new deals with China and India, where we have a poor colonial legacy and baggage and they are now more powerful than we are. The WTO will become the next sapper of sovereignty from the UK, as people realise it has rules, we have to abide in them and we have no say in what happens. The politicians will indulge in a huge blame game and no one will take responsibility and no one will be able to negotiate ourselves out of the mess.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

11th October 2019, 02:32 AM	#1043
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Originally Posted by Lothian You are missing the point. May's deal would have delivered the referendum promise to leave the EU. That leavers opposed it shows us that we can not assume that any particular leave deal has the popular support. We can not say that May's deal is what the public voted for. Similarly we can not say that a hard brexit is what people voted for. You have shown the referendum can not be relied upon. Thank you for that. You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal? Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460

11th October 2019, 03:09 AM	#1045
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	Originally Posted by Tolls Because leaving without a deal would be a ******* catastrophe. Yeah, but some really rich people will become much, much richer. The movers and shakers of the UK won't be subject to new EU tax laws. Putin gets what he wants, which is a destabilised west. His shills have worked hard for that. Brexit is doing exactly as it is intended to do.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

11th October 2019, 04:15 AM	#1046
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,395	Originally Posted by ceptimus As you know, I didn't think that was a good way to leave the EU. I'm glad it didn't pass and that we now have a chance to leave the EU in a more complete manner. What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU?
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

11th October 2019, 02:54 AM	#1044
Tolls Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Posts: 5,229	Because leaving without a deal would be a ******* catastrophe. Which has been explained over and over again, but you persist in going "la la la la la". And it would not even be a case of "getting Brexit done" as a No Deal would be only the start of proceedings, unless you think (which, frankly, wouldn't surprise me) that the UK would be prosperous sat on the sidelines under WTO terms with our largest trading partner.

11th October 2019, 04:23 AM	#1047
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 32,673	Where we’re at: OUR ENEMY The EU - anyone who sides with them is a collaborator who has “surrendered”. OUR ALLY A man who is happy to give the green light for murderous attacks on former allies because “they didn’t fight in Normandy” etc

11th October 2019, 04:33 AM	#1048
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,218	Originally Posted by ceptimus You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal? Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal. I ignored your point as you defeated it yourself straight after. It was not a binary issue as refusing to back May's deal also gave the possibility that Brexit could be delayed or cancelled.

11th October 2019, 04:39 AM	#1049
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 33,889	Originally Posted by ceptimus You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal? Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal. Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

11th October 2019, 04:46 AM	#1050
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,395	4 myths about what the public thinks about Brexit tackled TL/DR version: Rather than voters wanting to "Get Brexit Done" 2/3rds of the public believe it's more important to get the right terms than to leave quickly. Rather than nobody having changed their minds about Brexit, 20% of voters have changed their minds, and most of the movement is towards Remain. If a second referendum were to happen, Remain would likely win. with 53% of the vote. Rather than Leave winning again if nobody changed their mind, the death of older voters and younger people now being eligible to vote means that even if 100% of people who voted last time voted the same way again, Remain would likely still win. Rather than baulking at the thought of a second referendum, more than 2/3rds of the public want there to be one.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

11th October 2019, 04:46 AM	#1051
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,218	Originally Posted by Mojo Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they? Come on, when it comes to sovereignty everyone knows Parliament is the enemy of the people. As well as the UK constitution and the UK legal system also being the enemy of the people In fact seeing recent polling and the popular support for remaining, it is now obvious that the people are the enemy of the people.
	Last edited by Lothian; 11th October 2019 at 04:50 AM.

11th October 2019, 04:47 AM	#1052
McHrozni Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,919	Originally Posted by Mojo Brexiteers really hate the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, don’t they? Most seem to be supporter of Carl Schmitt and his führerprinzip. McHrozni
	__________________ لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

11th October 2019, 05:32 AM	#1054
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 7,772	Originally Posted by ceptimus You completely ignored my point about it being the law that we would leave anyway. So the May's deal vote was, in law, a simple binary choice - do you prefer to leave with May's deal or with no deal? Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal. its called parliamentary democracy mate. not a fan?
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

11th October 2019, 06:49 AM	#1055
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,099	Originally Posted by ceptimus The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility. Irony so heavy light cannot escape it...

11th October 2019, 06:52 AM	#1056
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,099	Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng Or "taking back control". I have often wondered which EU regulations are supposed to be so bad. Leaver supporters seem to be incapable of identifying any such regulations, once all the made-up stuff in the British pro-Leave press has been excluded.

11th October 2019, 07:00 AM	#1057
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	Originally Posted by Information Analyst Leaver supporters seem to be incapable of identifying any such regulations, once all the made-up stuff in the British pro-Leave press has been excluded. When you say 'British Press', in many, if not most instances, you mean the current PM...
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

11th October 2019, 07:00 AM	#1058
Information Analyst Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 10,099	Originally Posted by ceptimus Of course, remainers have since managed to change the law. They were always planning to do that which is why they also voted against May's deal. Really? How did they know that they'd get the chance due to Leavers being so spectacularly unable to get their act together?

11th October 2019, 08:19 AM	#1059
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Originally Posted by Information Analyst Really? How did they know that they'd get the chance due to Leavers being so spectacularly unable to get their act together? They weren't certain of course, but it looked like they had the numbers. Also, they had the speaker on their side - by the unwritten constitution, the speaker is supposed to act as an impartial umpire, but Bercow is far from impartial.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460

11th October 2019, 08:37 AM	#1060
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,218	Originally Posted by ceptimus They weren't certain of course, but it looked like they had the numbers. Also, they had the speaker on their side - by the unwritten constitution, the speaker is supposed to act as an impartial umpire, but Bercow is far from impartial. It is his job to put the will of parliament before that of the Government. He has done that very well. Why do you hate British parliamentary sovereignty?

11th October 2019, 08:37 AM	#1061
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,395	ceptimus, you seem to have missed my question from earlier. I'll ask it again: What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU?
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

11th October 2019, 08:41 AM	#1062
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	Breaking: Boris way more in Putin's pocket than was suspected. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...287363585.html Farrage and the other anti-Europe terrorist don't vote. Except just this once, just now, when they voted against a measure designed to fight foreign powers interfering in domestic politics. I'm going with 'terrorists' and 'traitors'
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] Last edited by 3point14; 11th October 2019 at 08:43 AM.

11th October 2019, 09:42 AM	#1063
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim ceptimus, you seem to have missed my question from earlier. I'll ask it again: What advantages do you see to a No Deal Brexit when compared to remaining in the EU? It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy. And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st. As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460

11th October 2019, 09:45 AM	#1064
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Originally Posted by Lothian Why do you hate British parliamentary sovereignty? Because the MPs, Lords, and officials that comprise parliament are mostly liars and/or incompetents who refuse or are unable to keep the promises they made to the electorate.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460

11th October 2019, 09:51 AM	#1065
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,771	Originally Posted by ceptimus It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy. And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st. As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied. Well that of course has to be recent reason, back in the day before the likes of Mogg and Smith were voting against leaving what was your view of what the advantages were?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th October 2019, 09:57 AM	#1066
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,218	Originally Posted by ceptimus It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy. And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st. As the legal maxim has it, justice delayed is justice denied. Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots.

11th October 2019, 10:03 AM	#1067
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	Originally Posted by Lothian Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots. Hear, hear. Can I steal it?
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,659	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

11th October 2019, 10:27 AM	#1068
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Originally Posted by Lothian Your reasons are full of ****. 9 times Boris voted against deals that would have taken us out on 29th May and you have supported that decision of his to betray the wishes of the British people. You then criticise not leaving on 29th May as a broken promise. You sum up leavers. Don't know what you voted for, don't know what you want. You don't understand how international agreements work, You don't understand the consequences of actions. You don't know anything other than how to criticise people for not delivering impossible promises of idiots. Careful! You don't want to get too worked up, you could suffer a nosebleed or worse! May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass. Thankfully May was eventually sacked. Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460

11th October 2019, 10:29 AM	#1069
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460	Originally Posted by Darat Well that of course has to be recent reason, back in the day before the likes of Mogg and Smith were voting against leaving what was your view of what the advantages were? I told you many times. Perhaps your memory is failing.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,460

11th October 2019, 11:05 AM	#1070
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Usk, Wales Posts: 26,531	Originally Posted by ceptimus Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through. Simply leaving not quite good enough for you? It has to be 'properly'? Please define 'properly', and show where that definition appeared in the referendum campaign.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

11th October 2019, 11:21 AM	#1071
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,218	Originally Posted by ceptimus Careful! You don't want to get too worked up, you could suffer a nosebleed or worse! It is hard to judge emotion from the written word. Don't confuse ridicule with anger. I am not angry you hold your opinions. I am pointing out how ill informed they are. Quote: May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass. Thankfully May was eventually sacked. Now we at least have a government that seem serious about leaving and leaving properly - though of course, right now, they don't have the numbers to push it through. Where on the referendum paper did it say we were not to leave on a crappy deal? The problem you are getting into ruling out crappy deals is in deciding what is crappy. That has to lead to the final exit arrangements (deal or no deal) being put to the people.
	Last edited by Lothian; 11th October 2019 at 11:32 AM.

11th October 2019, 11:26 AM	#1072
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,771	Originally Posted by ceptimus I told you many times. Perhaps your memory is failing. Have you? Sorry but I don't recall - can you link to a post?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

11th October 2019, 12:02 PM	#1073
Earthborn Terrestrial Intelligence Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Terra Firma Posts: 6,346	Originally Posted by ceptimus May's deal was a crappy deal - almost everyone (except the EU) agreed on that and that's why it wouldn't pass. I think the EU knew it was going to be a crappy deal before anyone in the UK caught on. They certainly wouldn't have violated international law and its own founding principles just to give the UK a more sweetheart deal than it got while in the EU. May's deal was crappy but it was probably the best deal possible. Any other deal will look remarkably similar to it.
	__________________ Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that! Multatuli

11th October 2019, 12:37 PM	#1074
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,107	Mays deal looked crappy only because membership of the EU is better than any and all possible deals. It is just about degrees of crap.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

11th October 2019, 01:22 PM	#1075
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 18,658	The GBP today seems to think that emerging noises mean EU-UK will do a deal that probably keeps NI in the EU customs union and that this can't be vetoed as time passes by unionist parties alone.

11th October 2019, 01:27 PM	#1076
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,527	Originally Posted by ceptimus Because the MPs, Lords, and officials that comprise parliament are mostly liars and/or incompetents who refuse or are unable to keep the promises they made to the electorate. SO you want one man rule instead? Nice.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.