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Old 12th October 2019, 02:54 AM   #1081
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Simply leaving not quite good enough for you? It has to be 'properly'? Please define 'properly', and show where that definition appeared in the referendum campaign.
If you don't understand what leaving means, as opposed to remaining, then I can't help you. There is a clue in the acronym BRINO.
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:57 AM   #1082
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Have you? Sorry but I don't recall - can you link to a post?
Nah, I'm not going trawling through the 8 prequels to this thread just for the sake of history. You can if you want to.
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:57 AM   #1083
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Ireland can live with it, the rest of the EU can probably, too.
But I don't trust Johnson not to renege on a deal as soon as he has a majority.
Foster is Northern Ireland, not the Republic. This may be nothing but theatre, agreeing to something they know won't get through Parliament. As long as you have the hard core No Deal types on the Tory backbenches the chances of any half reasonable deal getting through is zero.
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:59 AM   #1084
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SO you want one man rule instead?
Nice.
Wrong! It's amazing how you remainers consistently jump to the wrong conclusions.

I want MPs and others who are not liars or incompetents.
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Old 12th October 2019, 03:06 AM   #1085
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Ireland can live with it, the rest of the EU can probably, too.
But I don't trust Johnson not to renege on a deal as soon as he has a majority.
In the long run, there's probably going to be a United Ireland anyway. I expect this to happen eventually, with or without Brexit. I've always believed that in the final analysis, it's a straightforward issue of geography.

I couldn't put a figure on how many years I mean by 'long run'. It could be a hundred years. I expect Brexit to shorten that period though, rather than lengthen it.
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Old 12th October 2019, 03:11 AM   #1086
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong! It's amazing how you remainers consistently jump to the wrong conclusions.

I want MPs and others who are not liars or incompetents.
And yet you are happy with a PM who has been repeatedly shown to be both?
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Old 12th October 2019, 03:40 AM   #1087
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
And yet you are happy with a PM who has been repeatedly shown to be both?

Weekly. In print. For money.
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Old 12th October 2019, 04:08 AM   #1088
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy.
Why do you think that "breaking their promises" is a threat to democracy when it comes to the fact of leaving the EU but not, for example, when it comes to the fact of not delivering an extra £350m a week to the NHS with the money saved by leaving the EU?
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Old 12th October 2019, 04:17 AM   #1089
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Nah, I'm not going trawling through the 8 prequels to this thread just for the sake of history. You can if you want to.
Then I hope you don't mind that I'll assume you didnt have any rational reasons.
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Old 12th October 2019, 05:26 AM   #1090
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Why do you think that "breaking their promises" is a threat to democracy when it comes to the fact of leaving the EU but not, for example, when it comes to the fact of not delivering an extra £350m a week to the NHS with the money saved by leaving the EU?
We were also promised the easiest deal in history and all the benefits of membership
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Old 12th October 2019, 07:53 AM   #1091
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
And yet you are happy with a PM who has been repeatedly shown to be both?
Not happy at all. Boris is better than May, though that's not saying much. May was also shown to be a liar - she repeatedly claimed we would leave on March 29th, and that 'no deal is better than a bad deal' although her real belief was that 'no deal is not acceptable under any circumstances.'

There are very few politicians now who aren't obvious liars and hypocrites. Politics is in a sad state.
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Old 12th October 2019, 08:02 AM   #1092
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then I hope you don't mind that I'll assume you didnt have any rational reasons.
Can't you read? Just because you have a poor memory, and expect me to do a lot of unnecessary work to aid your memory it doesn't alter the fact that I posted my reasons, which were perfectly rational in my opinion. If I were to do the work you'd most likely forget my reasons again.

Is this a new debating tactic on a supposedly critical thinking forum? "I've forgotten what you wrote some months ago, so rather than bother to refresh my memory, I'm going to assume that what you wrote was irrational." Have things really sunk that low?
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Old 12th October 2019, 10:07 AM   #1093
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
We were also promised the easiest deal in history and all the benefits of membership
By many of the same people now in government and yet those promises are apparently immaterial.
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Old 12th October 2019, 11:40 AM   #1094
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
On the matter of future trade deals can't say the recent fracas with the NBA and Blizzard give me a great deal of confidence when it comes to a deal with China, I mean the NBA has far more leverage with China than the UK...
And the Dunn case demonstrates how little the Trump regime thinks of BoJo's Britain.
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Old 12th October 2019, 11:42 AM   #1095
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Nah, I'm not going trawling through the 8 prequels to this thread just for the sake of history. You can if you want to.
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:33 PM   #1096
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Can't you read? Just because you have a poor memory, and expect me to do a lot of unnecessary work to aid your memory it doesn't alter the fact that I posted my reasons, which were perfectly rational in my opinion. If I were to do the work you'd most likely forget my reasons again.

Is this a new debating tactic on a supposedly critical thinking forum? "I've forgotten what you wrote some months ago, so rather than bother to refresh my memory, I'm going to assume that what you wrote was irrational." Have things really sunk that low?
Some confusion, I recall some of the irrational "reasons" you gave, it was the rational ones that I can't recall you making. And since you obviously have the time and means to either link to such past posts or retype the rational reasons but you won't I'm going to have to go by what you have previously posted which were irrational reasons.
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:39 PM   #1097
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Mod Info I've split the posts about the mechanics of posting and quoting to the forum help section here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=339584
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:43 PM   #1098
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
They weren't certain of course, but it looked like they had the numbers.
Which would have been academic if it were not for Leavers being so spectacularly unable to get their act together.
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Also, they had the speaker on their side - by the unwritten constitution, the speaker is supposed to act as an impartial umpire, but Bercow is far from impartial.
Your own bias seems to be making you confuse impartiality with bias.
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Old 12th October 2019, 02:44 PM   #1099
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's more about the disadvantages of MPs and the government breaking their promises for me now. They promised that they would implement the result of the referendum - if they break that promise now by not leaving the EU then I think that will do lasting harm to our democracy.

And by leaving, I mean leaving soon. They've already broken their promises at least once (we were told many times we would leave on May 29th). For the last few months we've been told repeatedly that we'll leave on October 31st.
Broken promises? You really should do stand-up.
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Old 12th October 2019, 09:58 PM   #1100
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Interesting how this is developing.
The betting shops now have extension 14 times more likely than leave with a deal, and 30 times more likely than leave with no deal.

The corollary to extension is a referendum with remain or set conditions to leave, and remain will win in a canter.

That is how I see it. I am very happy for everyone here except ceptimus it seems, but ceptimus is a vital contributor nevertheless.
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:18 AM   #1101
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong! It's amazing how you remainers consistently jump to the wrong conclusions.

I want MPs and others who are not liars or incompetents.
Surely this is an oxymoron.
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:21 AM   #1102
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Can't you read? Just because you have a poor memory, and expect me to do a lot of unnecessary work to aid your memory it doesn't alter the fact that I posted my reasons, which were perfectly rational in my opinion. If I were to do the work you'd most likely forget my reasons again.

Is this a new debating tactic on a supposedly critical thinking forum? "I've forgotten what you wrote some months ago, so rather than bother to refresh my memory, I'm going to assume that what you wrote was irrational." Have things really sunk that low?
Don't be rude to Darat.
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:23 AM   #1103
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I want MPs and others who are not liars or incompetents.
Which of these was the advice to the Queen to proogue Parliament?
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:23 AM   #1104
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And the Dunn case demonstrates how little the Trump regime thinks of BoJo's Britain.
Were this forum to be Little Britain, ceptimus most likely could play the 'Only Brexiteer in the Village'.
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:33 AM   #1105
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Can I introduce the topic of what should happen to EU citizens currently residing in the UK (and conversely, Brits in the EU) after Brexit?

Fascinating read here, from the GRAUNIAD:

Quote:
There is already concern from immigration lawyers about the upbeat slanting of statistics. The Home Office likes to say that almost 1.5 million people have been granted “some form of status”, but this masks the fact that currently about 40% are getting the inferior pre-settled status, which obliges them to adhere to strict rules on continuous residence for up to a further five years or risk getting pushed out of the system.

Even the Conservative and arch Brexiter MEP Daniel Hannan has voiced concern on Twitter, warning that he has had cases of EU nationals in his south-east England constituency being denied settled status despite living in the UK for years. “This is a breach of the assurances I and others gave during the referendum.” He called on Patel “to sort this out … before we end up with another Windrush scandal”.
Given there are apx 3.5 million (government estimate, but believed much higher) EU citizens int he UK but 1.4m Brits in the EU it does look rather lopsided.

Nonetheless, after Priti Patel's recent outburst about citizenship ending on 31 Oct 2019 (wrongly) you wonder what the likes of her and her 'law-and-order' brigade plan to do about it. Perhaps a UK version of kristallnacht by the new far right, who call themselves 'football lads' to get round the ban on extremist groups.
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:43 AM   #1106
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The almost comical ignorance and ineptness of hard brexiters like ceptimus certainly has been vital to stringing the process out to this point but I'm not sure that their input should be viewed as a contribution of any sort. They've provided nothing but lies and childish demands before trying to circumvent the law to get their way whenever saner heads prevailed. I don't think history will view their efforts with much kindness when this finally gets sorted out.

I hope we eventually see something like, "Despite the efforts put forth by a very vocal minority coalition the Brexit crisis was narrowly averted. Brexit was inspired by Russian destabilization efforts (^see MAGA, Trump) and led by corporate interests using targeted media to mislead and use ill-informed and disenfranchised voters to further their own goals. Numerous safeguards and programs were put in place worldwide to prevent any similar interference by foreign governments, corporate interests or special interest groups in the wake of Brexit and Trump's impeachment. Interestingly, Russia's efforts to target and destabilize democracies eventually produced the opposite effect with closer bonds between nations around the world."
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:52 AM   #1107
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Some interesting letters in the GRAUNIAD about EU citizens being forced to 'apply' to stay in the UK.

Quote:
Somewhat naively she assumed that her settled status would be confirmed once she inputted her national insurance number. Alas no. Additional documentation is required demonstrating residence for a five-year period. We are at present assembling the set of documents. However, we are told that P60s may not suffice since they do not prove residence. The Home Office seems to place a strange faith in council tax demands – who files them for safekeeping?
and yet another professor writes:

Quote:
n October 2017 I had the privilege of appearing before the House of Lords’ EU justice sub-committee to argue that the continued state of uncertainty for EU citizens – let alone deportation – in itself violated article 8. The chair, Baroness Kennedy, was in full agreement. But she was also, quite rightly, keen to ensure we did not cause “alarm around the nation that expulsion [was] on the cards”.
I have been surprised to learn (although perhaps I shouldn't have been, given HMRC's residency requirements in respect of income tax) that any EU citizen who has applied for settled status or 'pre-settles' status is not allowed to leave the country for more than six months, or they lose their UK post-Brexit rights.

Given 'Windrush' citizens were told they lost their citizenship if they left the UK for more than two year, this seems an incredibly harsh and hostile environment for the EU guys in the UK.
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Old 13th October 2019, 05:17 AM   #1108
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Jo Maugham QC explaining on Twitter why, even if parliament passes through a withdrawal bill these coming weeks, it would still be a 'no-deal' Brexit:

Quote:
If the House of Commons were to approve a withdrawal agreement on 19 October, and there was no extension, we would have No Deal on 31 October. Here's why. THREAD.
Worth a read for the sections of the WA he quotes to illustrate his claim.

Quote:
To ratify the withdrawal agreement a number of further steps have to be taken on the UK side. If they are not taken the agreement can't be ratified.

These steps are set out in section 13 of the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
Quote:
First, both the withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have to be laid before the Commons and agreed. These documents will together be many hundreds of pages long. As matters stand, they do not even exist.

Commons has neither seen nor debated either.
Quote:
Second, the House of Lords can take up to five *sitting* days to debatw the withdrawal agreement and framework.

I am not an expert on procedure in the Lords but my understand is that this debate cannot be guillotined.
Quote:
Third, we need a whole new Act of Parliament to implement the Withdrawal Agreement. That Act would also need to pass the Commons and the Lords.

The Institute for Government says this type of bill usually takes 10-40 sitting days. https://instituteforgovernment.org.u...art_1551882469
Quote:
Difficult or impossible to see how all of those steps on the UK side can be taken in the period from Sunday 20th October to the 31st of October.

But that is not all.
Quote:
There are also legal preconditions to the ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement under EU law, Article 50.

The first is that it also needs to be approved by the European Parliament, which will act on the advice of its Constitutional Affairs Committee.
And so he continues, ending with how an MP can put an oar into all of this.
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Old 13th October 2019, 06:38 AM   #1109
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong! It's amazing how you remainers consistently jump to the wrong conclusions.

I want MPs and others who are not liars or incompetents.

Well that rules out the Brexiteers then.
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Old 13th October 2019, 06:48 AM   #1110
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Originally Posted by bam View Post
The almost comical ignorance and ineptness of hard brexiters like ceptimus certainly has been vital to stringing the process out to this point but I'm not sure that their input should be viewed as a contribution of any sort. They've provided nothing but lies and childish demands before trying to circumvent the law to get their way whenever saner heads prevailed. I don't think history will view their efforts with much kindness when this finally gets sorted out.

I hope we eventually see something like, "Despite the efforts put forth by a very vocal minority coalition the Brexit crisis was narrowly averted. Brexit was inspired by Russian destabilization efforts (^see MAGA, Trump) and led by corporate interests using targeted media to mislead and use ill-informed and disenfranchised voters to further their own goals. Numerous safeguards and programs were put in place worldwide to prevent any similar interference by foreign governments, corporate interests or special interest groups in the wake of Brexit and Trump's impeachment. Interestingly, Russia's efforts to target and destabilize democracies eventually produced the opposite effect with closer bonds between nations around the world."
It's not just ignorance and ineptness but also deliberate refusal to acknowledge reality inconsistent with their worldview.
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Old 13th October 2019, 07:07 AM   #1111
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Jo Maugham QC explaining on Twitter why, even if parliament passes through a withdrawal bill these coming weeks, it would still be a 'no-deal' Brexit:

Worth a read for the sections of the WA he quotes to illustrate his claim.

And so he continues, ending with how an MP can put an oar into all of this.


If an agreement is reached which is acceptable both to the UK Parliament and to the other EU member states, it's a 100% certainty that the EU will unilaterally extend the UK's membership for a short additional period in order to allow for these legal hurdles to be crossed.
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Old 13th October 2019, 08:14 AM   #1112
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It's not just ignorance and ineptness but also deliberate refusal to acknowledge reality inconsistent with their worldview.
I can see that in their posts and actions as well, the only mitigating factor being the fact that they were deliberately fed the targeted lies and nonsense they believe now. I hope at some point they realize just how easily they were used and can learn something from the whole episode. Those like ceptimus may never acknowledge the duplicity, they've certainly failed to utilize the many times they've been shown the truth in all the iterations of this thread.
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Old 13th October 2019, 09:10 AM   #1113
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Originally Posted by bam View Post
I can see that in their posts and actions as well, the only mitigating factor being the fact that they were deliberately fed the targeted lies and nonsense they believe now. I hope at some point they realize just how easily they were used and can learn something from the whole episode. Those like ceptimus may never acknowledge the duplicity, they've certainly failed to utilize the many times they've been shown the truth in all the iterations of this thread.
Thing is many of them know about the duplicity but don't care. Any lie was fine so long as it got people to vote leave. of course pinning them down on what benefit leave is supposed to deliver is another matter.
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Old 13th October 2019, 10:35 AM   #1114
bam
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Thing is many of them know about the duplicity but don't care. Any lie was fine so long as it got people to vote leave. of course pinning them down on what benefit leave is supposed to deliver is another matter.
I've seen a few instances where they acknowledge that they've been lied to by Leave but they need to understand and accept that they were used as dupes before they can move on. Professionals targeted them with ads and false stories that worked exactly as intended. Ironically, those like ceptimus who believe they were acting for their country are actively working against their own and their country's best interests for the sake of international corporations and Russia.

I feel we already know why they voted to leave. I want to know why they continue supporting the goal now that so many Leave lies have been exposed and the Russian involvement has come out into the open?
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Old 13th October 2019, 11:26 AM   #1115
GlennB
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Originally Posted by bam View Post
I feel we already know why they voted to leave. I want to know why they continue supporting the goal now that so many Leave lies have been exposed and the Russian involvement has come out into the open?
I think it's called "ego investment". Having gone public with a view it takes some cojones to retract publicly, so people tend to dig in their heels and defend, defend, defend. Happens all the time in real life and on ISF.
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Old 13th October 2019, 12:13 PM   #1116
Ulf Nereng
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It is hard to admit, even to yourself, that you were wrong. Even harder to admit that you were conned. And hardest of all that you were conned by enemies of your country. The Leave campaign also played the patriotism card for all it was worth.
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Old 13th October 2019, 01:33 PM   #1117
Samson
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Originally Posted by bam View Post
The almost comical ignorance and ineptness of hard brexiters like ceptimus certainly has been vital to stringing the process out to this point but I'm not sure that their input should be viewed as a contribution of any sort. They've provided nothing but lies and childish demands before trying to circumvent the law to get their way whenever saner heads prevailed. I don't think history will view their efforts with much kindness when this finally gets sorted out.

I hope we eventually see something like, "Despite the efforts put forth by a very vocal minority coalition the Brexit crisis was narrowly averted. Brexit was inspired by Russian destabilization efforts (^see MAGA, Trump) and led by corporate interests using targeted media to mislead and use ill-informed and disenfranchised voters to further their own goals. Numerous safeguards and programs were put in place worldwide to prevent any similar interference by foreign governments, corporate interests or special interest groups in the wake of Brexit and Trump's impeachment. Interestingly, Russia's efforts to target and destabilize democracies eventually produced the opposite effect with closer bonds between nations around the world."
The reason I say ceptimus is helpful is because they don't advance reasons in favour of brexit beyond the upholding democracy principle. People coming fresh to the debate would assume there are strong economic and social arguments on each side, but ceptimus proves this is not the case.
Best endeavours by ceptimus still leave me believing brexit is guilty as charged of attempting to ruin the UK.
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Old 13th October 2019, 03:02 PM   #1118
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
If an agreement is reached which is acceptable both to the UK Parliament and to the other EU member states, it's a 100% certainty that the EU will unilaterally extend the UK's membership for a short additional period in order to allow for these legal hurdles to be crossed.
I don't see how the EU can unilaterally extend anything. It would have to be agreed by the government.
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Old 13th October 2019, 03:17 PM   #1119
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
It is hard to admit, even to yourself, that you were wrong. Even harder to admit that you were conned. And hardest of all that you were conned by enemies of your country. The Leave campaign also played the patriotism card for all it was worth.
There's an aspect of hanging around too long that is a subtle negotiation to be offered a position in party leadership positions.
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Old 13th October 2019, 11:50 PM   #1120
SezMe
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I don't see how the EU can unilaterally extend anything. It would have to be agreed by the government.
If the EU and UK reached an agreement, wouldn't such an extension be a part of said agreement? I'm sure both sides are aware of the steps posted above.
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