IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Coronavirus , partskeptic

Reply
Old 29th January 2021, 11:09 AM   #2721
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 19,212
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
See also, “...unless people change their ways.”
Or, "The system works; you just must not be trying hard enough."
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2021, 11:37 AM   #2722
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 28,214
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed, science doesn't propose to be able to answer every question, and in some people's minds that shortcoming is somehow its fatal flaw. Religion variously proposes that it does have all the answers, but then -- even worse -- it ends up admittedly being subject to the inscrutable whims of capricious gods. And that's somehow the better way of doing things.

Amazing how few hours it takes for PartSkeptic to go from, "What's the harm in following someone like me, who's an expert in the spirit world?" to "It's vague and subtle and I don't really know how it works."
I was also rather amazed at how quickly PartSkeptic goes from agonizing over his multiple, crippling ailments to rhapsodizing about his good health.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2021, 12:06 PM   #2723
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,735
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed, science doesn't propose to be able to answer every question, and in some people's minds that shortcoming is somehow its fatal flaw. Religion variously proposes that it does have all the answers, but then -- even worse -- it ends up admittedly being subject to the inscrutable whims of capricious gods. And that's somehow the better way of doing things.

Amazing how few hours it takes for PartSkeptic to go from, "What's the harm in following someone like me, who's an expert in the spirit world?" to "It's vague and subtle and I don't really know how it works."
I think the thing that aggravates me most about this is the way some people of faith seem to see science as some sort of competition, that you can't, so to speak, work for both teams. There is at least one poster here at ISF who, as both a believing Christian and a scientist, would, I think, very much disagree.

People can believe whatever they want, but when a system of belief becomes a necessarily exclusionary one, it's going to be at a cost that spirits won't repay.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King

Last edited by turingtest; 29th January 2021 at 12:20 PM. Reason: grammar ugh
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2021, 03:47 PM   #2724
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,473
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I would have made it free if that helped it to sell.
Read your statement very carefully. Can you see a problem in it? Apparently not.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2021, 04:09 PM   #2725
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,997
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
"God answers all prayers- it's just that sometimes he says no."

Where would the woo be without the copout it needs for when it goes wrong?
I'll direct my prayers to a pint of milk. It's as effective as any other object of venerence, and at least I can have a nice cup of tea afterwards.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2021, 04:42 PM   #2726
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 19,212
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
There is at least one poster here at ISF who, as both a believing Christian and a scientist, would, I think, very much disagree.
I have people working with and for me who are die-hard engineers and scientists. Quite a lot of them happen also to be Mormon, because hey -- Utah. And if any of them are hard-core Mormons, it doesn't seem to come up. Obviously it's usually inappropriate to talk about religion at work. But the point remains that these people seem quite willing to bat for both teams. They don't seem to see anything in conflict between their religious beliefs and their scientific pursuit of understanding.
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2021, 07:36 PM   #2727
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 28,214
While I acknowledge that there are some fundamental intellectual and philosophical problems in the idea of "non-overlapping magisteria," as Steven J. Gould called it, I think the idea works pretty well for many people who are unwilling to let go of religion and its attempt to answer things for which it's possible no other answer exists, but still recognize reality when they see it.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2021, 05:32 AM   #2728
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,465
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
It was only when Trump ACTUALLY won the election that people thought it possible. My prediction was 2 April 2016...
Self-serving nonsense of a high order. Here, I've arrayed a diverse sampling of articles that all pre-date this prediction that you crow about.
Feb 18
Donald Trump is a bigger frontrunner to be the Republican nominee than you think link

Feb 24
Donald Trump cements frontrunner status after big win in Nevada link

March 1
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump come into focus as the presidential front-runners link

March 4
Can establishment Republicans stop Donald Trump? Rubio, Cruz take aim at GOP frontrunner link

March 5
Trump's frontrunner status link

March 6
Trump and Clinton remain front-runners link

March 21
Republican presidential frontrunner Donald Trump link

March 30
The Republican frontrunner in the US Presidential race Donald Trump link
At a time Trump was clearly the runaway front-runner, and universally acknowledged as such, you predicted he'd be nominated. (Here again are the primary results.) Not impressive at all.

Your thoughts?
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

Last edited by varwoche; 3rd February 2021 at 05:36 AM.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:18 PM   #2729
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
A small anecdote of prayers being answered and yet it seems to have a "natural" explanation. It is the coincidence that matters. Plus, I got what I was hoping for.

On Friday I began casting a concrete slab with 2 workers at 7:45 am. I was told it was going to rain, but I could not put it off any longer.

At 10 am my wife told me that the schedule for load shedding was that our area would be off at 12 pm. I really hoped it would not because I would need the concrete mixer well past then. I had a generator but it would take an effort of set it up. Guess what. No power outage.

At 3pm I was on the local street app and saw the complaints that our area (8B) had been left on because the Utility had mistakenly turned of area 8A. I was happy.

The rain came. Quite heavy. But we had finished and were almost done with the clean-up. Once more. My usually reliable good timing.

Okay. Let me say it for you. Bah, humbug. The law of averages mean some-one must have outstanding luck most of the time, and the law of averages will not apply to them.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:28 PM   #2730
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
Now for some interesting news. Or not.

My wife's son went on holiday to see his in-laws. They decided to first take a holiday break where they would quarantine for a week first. On the second day their daughter who is 2 years and 9 months showed signs of Covid. Sore throat, fever, runny nose. She also had no sense of taste. They had her tested and it was negative. I told my wife it may be a false negative, and that they should check with the little one's school. The whole school had it.

A few days later, both parents had it. The father had diarrhea. Both had sore throats as if they had swallowed razor blades. They got tested. All negative.

Now how likely is it to be Covid? Maybe a new strain that the testing does not detect. In addition to the SA variant that has been documented.

If so, it infected a whole class of 2-4 year olds. Highly infectious because both parents got it at the same time. Ordinary flu has been very low (but not zero) because of all the social distancing.

We have a race between mutations and the vaccines. In the Spanish Flu, the second wave (of three) was the deadly one.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:35 PM   #2731
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I was also rather amazed at how quickly PartSkeptic goes from agonizing over his multiple, crippling ailments to rhapsodizing about his good health.

I still have to take pain tablets and anti-fungals, and the morning are still rough. But what a difference to go from only able to get 2 hours of work done to getting nearly a full day of work done.

It is quite noticeable for me to correlate any trip outside my house to a bad day the next day. When I am home for 3 days in a row (and take my medication), I am in reasonable shape.

Apart from psychosomatic (which I reject), do you have an answer? Other than my explanation of cell tower radiation?
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:37 PM   #2732
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Read your statement very carefully. Can you see a problem in it? Apparently not.

Of course I can, if you want to split hairs. The distributor wants to be paid, and for paperbacks there is a printing cost. I can set the price so I get zero or near zero, but again, I am setting a reasonable price.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:49 PM   #2733
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You have yet to provide a shred of objective eidence for either the existence of the spirit world or your ability to communicate with it. But thank you for confirming that your prognostications are so utterly worthless they could still be safely ignored, even if your ridiculous claims were true.

Am I right that the scientific test is not 100% at all times but beating the odds?

Let us say that I predicted what Zener card you would pick and post, and we kept track of the results. The average would be 20 % correct answers. If I got 25 % for a large number of tests, would that be sufficient proof? No doubt you would keep insisting on more test and more tests on the basis I was having a streak of good luck.

The "spirits" whoever they are, would have to be agreeable to taking part. Maybe they would agree to an informal test where one could have doubt.

The same applies for other "predictions". I keep saying that you keep raising the bar in order to discredit me, and taking opinions as predictions.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:51 PM   #2734
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,159
There are hundreds of possible explanations for your symptoms, PartSkeptic. Diseases, infections, toxins, the list is endless. All are more likely than EHS, because all have objective evidence for their existence.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:54 PM   #2735
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed, science doesn't propose to be able to answer every question, and in some people's minds that shortcoming is somehow its fatal flaw. Religion variously proposes that it does have all the answers, but then -- even worse -- it ends up admittedly being subject to the inscrutable whims of capricious gods. And that's somehow the better way of doing things.

Amazing how few hours it takes for PartSkeptic to go from, "What's the harm in following someone like me, who's an expert in the spirit world?" to "It's vague and subtle and I don't really know how it works."

You incorrectly rephrase, and then use scorn. The old straw-man device. You accuse others of using it, but cannot see when you do it.

Most of what I am saying is not a new religion. You try to set it up that way as a means of discrediting me. It is a logical mix of many religions and beliefs. I just happen to have experiences that indicate which truths are the right ones.

Show me one, just one, statement of mine that is "new" and never-before discussed.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:57 PM   #2736
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,159
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Am I right that the scientific test is not 100% at all times but beating the odds?
Statistical significance is the criterion as you well know. Or should do by now, anyway.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2021, 11:57 PM   #2737
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There are hundreds of possible explanations for your symptoms, PartSkeptic. Diseases, infections, toxins, the list is endless. All are more likely than EHS, because all have objective evidence for their existence.

You have avoided dealing with the issue of the timing of the bad days and the good days.

Are you saying that my house is the only place where a particular toxin does not reside (other than EMF radiation)? If so, that should narrow the list for you. Give me a couple of suggestions.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 12:04 AM   #2738
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,159
If a disease or infection produces symptoms which are exacerbated by stress, those symptoms will inevitably worsen if you go out rather than stay quietly at home.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 03:03 AM   #2739
EvilBiker
Spectral Challenger
 
EvilBiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,404
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Now for some interesting news. Or not.

Not.

Why not bend that massive intellect you supposedly have towards starting a blog somewhere? Maybe name it “Dear Diary”.
__________________
Flat Earth Theory:
The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip.
EvilBiker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 05:40 AM   #2740
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
A small anecdote of prayers being answered and yet it seems to have a "natural" explanation. It is the coincidence that matters. Plus, I got what I was hoping for.

On Friday I began casting a concrete slab with 2 workers at 7:45 am. I was told it was going to rain, but I could not put it off any longer.

At 10 am my wife told me that the schedule for load shedding was that our area would be off at 12 pm. I really hoped it would not because I would need the concrete mixer well past then. I had a generator but it would take an effort of set it up. Guess what. No power outage.

At 3pm I was on the local street app and saw the complaints that our area (8B) had been left on because the Utility had mistakenly turned of area 8A. I was happy.

The rain came. Quite heavy. But we had finished and were almost done with the clean-up. Once more. My usually reliable good timing.

Okay. Let me say it for you. Bah, humbug. The law of averages mean some-one must have outstanding luck most of the time, and the law of averages will not apply to them.
So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em....
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 07:07 AM   #2741
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,735
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
A small anecdote of prayers being answered and yet it seems to have a "natural" explanation. It is the coincidence that matters. Plus, I got what I was hoping for.

On Friday I began casting a concrete slab with 2 workers at 7:45 am. I was told it was going to rain, but I could not put it off any longer.

At 10 am my wife told me that the schedule for load shedding was that our area would be off at 12 pm. I really hoped it would not because I would need the concrete mixer well past then. I had a generator but it would take an effort of set it up. Guess what. No power outage.

At 3pm I was on the local street app and saw the complaints that our area (8B) had been left on because the Utility had mistakenly turned of area 8A. I was happy.

The rain came. Quite heavy. But we had finished and were almost done with the clean-up. Once more. My usually reliable good timing.

Okay. Let me say it for you. Bah, humbug. The law of averages mean some-one must have outstanding luck most of the time, and the law of averages will not apply to them.
"Dear Lord. This is your (not-so-humble) servant PS requesting that you arrange for my power to be on long enough here for me to get my slab done today. If the folks in 8A gotta suffer a little, well, **** 'em, who cares as long as I'm happy. Also, I know you can't be bothered with doing something for those 2-4 year olds getting the coronavirus at the same time, so **** them too- me and my slab first!"

What a prayer, what a religion- I, I, I, me, me, me, and it's zero-sum- nothing those folks in 8A needed or wanted could possibly be as important as what you need or want, and your god isn't god enough to find a way to answer your prayer except at a cost for someone else. Too bad for them if they're on the wrong end of the prayer, eh?

Seriously, do you even hear yourself? It's been obvious for a long while that you don't listen to what anyone else is saying, but couldn't you at least listen to what you are?
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King

Last edited by turingtest; 7th February 2021 at 07:57 AM. Reason: clarify
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 09:09 AM   #2742
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,088
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em....
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 10:17 AM   #2743
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 19,212
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Am I right that the scientific test is not 100% at all times but beating the odds?
As Pixel42 says, statistical significance is the test. I've spoken at length about what statistical significance would mean for your claimed abilities. I've explained further how that means you can't disregard predictions you suddenly don't think are "real" predictions. Predictably, I get silence from you in response.

Quote:
Let us say that I predicted what Zener card you would pick and post, and we kept track of the results. The average would be 20 % correct answers. If I got 25 % for a large number of tests, would that be sufficient proof?
Yes, with a but.

The way the statistical model is typically constructed for Zener-type tests, you do a number of trials -- say 100 guesses. That's one run. As you say, you would be expected to guess 20% of them right by chance. Your actual number of hits will fit a normal distribution with a mean of 20. So you do several runs -- say 50 -- of 100 trials each. The more runs, the more degrees of freedom in the model. You do the runs at different times, under different control conditions. The histogram of your scores on the 50 runs will be expected to fit the normal distribution with a mean of 20. There are simple tests to compare two putatively normal distributions. Then there is a test to determine the probability that a possibly abnormal distribution in your scores still somehow arose by chance. If that probability is less than 5%, you will have demonstrated a statistically significant ability to guess Zener cards at a rate better than chance.

Quote:
No doubt you would keep insisting on more test and more tests on the basis I was having a streak of good luck.
You would be obliged to do as many tests as it takes to demonstrate that it isn't a streak of good luck. Mathematics determines how many, not the insistence of the experimenter or the willingness of the claimant. The error typically made by claimants is to cajole skeptics to accept their claims according to a basis that seems statistically valid, but is not.

Quote:
The "spirits" whoever they are, would have to be agreeable to taking part.
Which is one of the many common cop-outs fake prophets use. Their predictive abilities suddenly disappear under rigorous test conditions, and the prophet excuses the failure by saying the "spirits" were, say, angered by the test and refused to cooperate.

None of that matters. If your "spirits" refuse to take part in an evidence-gathering exercise, the end result is still that you have no evidence, and the correct response is still to reject your claim because it lacks evidence.

Quote:
Maybe they would agree to an informal test where one could have doubt.
No. The purpose of science is to eliminate -- or at worst, quantify -- doubt in observation, inference, and theorization. You may not claim the presence of evidence merely on "informal" grounds. You don't get to keep lowering the bar until you can clear it.

Quote:
The same applies for other "predictions". I keep saying that you keep raising the bar in order to discredit me, and taking opinions as predictions.
The bar has not changed. The bar has always been statistically significant evidence of the ability you claim. As much as you want to claim that your critics are moving the goalposts, it is you who are begging that the goal be made ever wider, or that the data be filtered to favor your claim. The width of the goalposts is laid down as a matter of well-known mathematics used across all quantitative sciences. There is no conspiracy to discredit you. In fact, your critics have been the most helpful in showing you how to provide evidence that will convince them, with the premise that if you can do it, they will have no choice but to accept your claim. You're simply insisting that they accept a different test that's easier on you.
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 11:00 AM   #2744
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 19,212
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You incorrectly rephrase, and then use scorn.
I and others have documented at length your frequent practice of flip-flopping on your claims. You complain that such posts are too long, and dismiss them as "typical" of my contribution, without explaining why that excuses you from addressing them. So you can complain all you want about how your critics are abusing you. But until you are willing to address the evidence, whining that your critics are misrepresenting you fall flat.

And as we see above and below, you clearly have no idea what I actually said. You're the one trying to wrench a different claim of out my post so that you can manufacture new accusations instead of dealing with the actual content.

Quote:
Most of what I am saying is not a new religion. You try to set it up that way as a means of discrediting me.
I made no such claim. The novelty or uniqueness of your belief system, if any, has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. In fact, you have said on a number of occasions that you take a "cafeteria" style approach to existing spiritual beliefs, and your critics have generally stipulated. I too have stipulated. The construction of your belief system is not really in question. The end result of all possible constructions is still your claim to know how the spirit world works.

The flip-flop I identified in your reasoning was about the grounds for assessing the reliability of your claims to supernatural ability, irrespective of where they might have come from. You provide two incompatible risk-benefit models for the proposition of following you as a prophet, coming just a few hours apart. On the one hand you say we should ignore the risk, if any, and give you the benefit of the doubt because you know the spirit world. On the other hand you concede risk factors that would give a reasonable person considerable cause not to rely upon your professed knowledge. You are either able to meet ordinary standards of reliability, or you are not. It doesn't matter how you profess to do it if you can, or what excuses you make when you can't.

The question lies not in the details of how you claim to know it, but whether you claim to know it. You talk big when you're accusing your critics of closed-mindedness and begging them to give you a break. But then you backpedal away when you have to explain evident failure. My comment to turingtest was simply to note how brief a time elapses between when you make these disparate pleas. This indicates a rhetorical posture, not a well-considered argument.

Quote:
It is a logical mix of many religions and beliefs. I just happen to have experiences that indicate which truths are the right ones.
Your experiences have no value in convincing others they should do as you say, yet you seem to think people are unreasonable for rejecting them as evidence of your prophetic ability. You are simply insisting that unverifiable anecdotes should have probative value. Further, even if we were to lower the bar and consider your anecdotes, many of them don't stand up to even informal scrutiny, and a few are patently false on their face. So while skeptics will admit that your subjective evaluation of life experience may be reason for you to believe you have supernatural powers, you cannot expect to convince anyone else unless you have evidence. And since you don't, and refuse to cooperate to produce any, your critics are right to reject your claim.

It is of literally negligible concern to me whether your beliefs are a mix of existing religions, existing non-religious beliefs, and stuff you made up. I have no interest in analyzing whether your combination qualifies as logical beyond mere self-consistency. Your belief system is simply what it is. I'm examining the claims you make as sequiturs to that belief system, not how you got there.

Quote:
Show me one, just one, statement of mine that is "new" and never-before discussed.
I never made any such claim. I have no idea what you're talking about.
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 11:13 AM   #2745
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 19,212
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Apart from psychosomatic (which I reject), do you have an answer?
No one is obliged to provide new answers when you fail to provide adequate grounds for rejecting the answers they've already given, which in this case seem to be well-reasoned, evidentiarily-supported answers.

And it's absolutely insulting to put your critics here on the hook to provide you with alternative answers when many of them have spent weeks if not months trying to enlist your help in testing various hypothesis with exactly that goal in mind. If you are asking skeptics to explain your predicament, and do it in the way skeptics will stand by, you will have to cooperate with the method the skeptics lay out. It's that simple. And since you won't, you can kindly stop asking for input. It's just rhetorical posturing at this point.

Quote:
Other than my explanation of cell tower radiation?
You have provided no credible evidence that cell tower radiation has the effects you imagine. You are unwilling to participate in any exercise to collect any as it affects you. You simply regurgitate the one-sided rhetoric of activists who have been parading their pseudo-scientific claims around for many years, harassing people with baseless claims, including the court case you were so excited about last week. Worse, you seem to think that steeping yourself in anti-capitalism masking as environmentalism makes you some kind of scientist.
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 12:27 AM   #2746
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
So last night we watched some SA scientists tell us that the vaccine that SA bought does not work on the new SA variant.

And of course we are exporting that variant. Too late to close down. It has already slipped out.

It seems that many SAers might have had a mild case of Covid early last year. Remember I said I felt I may have had it. Seems like the virus then needed to up its game to overcome the immunity that had built up.

I hear governments betting on eliminating the virus by vaccination. Not going to happen. All one needs now is a really deadly variant. Three government ministers in Zimbabwe have died. Some in SA are going. The elite are not going to escape. They are afraid and projecting their fear. Hence more lock-downs and more public push-back.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 02:50 AM   #2747
wollery
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
 
wollery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,993
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So last night we watched some SA scientists tell us that the vaccine that SA bought does not work on the new SA variant.
What a shame you only hear what you want to hear.

The vaccine appears to be less effective at preventing mild to moderate infections of the new SA variant, but there's too little data to know if it prevents severe infections. There should be vaccines that provide protection from the SA strain in a few months.

Quote:
And of course we are exporting that variant. Too late to close down. It has already slipped out.
No variation will ever be that well controlled, that's a pretty simple fact.

Quote:
It seems that many SAers might have had a mild case of Covid early last year. Remember I said I felt I may have had it. Seems like the virus then needed to up its game to overcome the immunity that had built up.
Talk about anthropomorphisation! Random mutations in viruses happen, some make them more contagious, some make them more deadly, some make them less contagious, some make them less deadly.

Quote:
I hear governments betting on eliminating the virus by vaccination. Not going to happen. All one needs now is a really deadly variant. Three government ministers in Zimbabwe have died. Some in SA are going. The elite are not going to escape. They are afraid and projecting their fear. Hence more lock-downs and more public push-back.
Anyone who isn't afraid, and doesn't support the lockdown is a moron.

The chances of any individual dying of SARS-COV2 are pretty low, but the strain it puts on a country's resources could be devastating, if it was left uncontrolled.




Now watch PS jump on that last statement and run with it as the method for God destroying the modern world.
__________________
"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad

"Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin
wollery is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 07:44 AM   #2748
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,465
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Self-serving nonsense of a high order. Here, I've arrayed a diverse sampling of articles that all pre-date this prediction that you crow about.
Feb 18
Donald Trump is a bigger frontrunner to be the Republican nominee than you think link

Feb 24
Donald Trump cements frontrunner status after big win in Nevada link

March 1
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump come into focus as the presidential front-runners link

March 4
Can establishment Republicans stop Donald Trump? Rubio, Cruz take aim at GOP frontrunner link

March 5
Trump's frontrunner status link

March 6
Trump and Clinton remain front-runners link

March 21
Republican presidential frontrunner Donald Trump link

March 30
The Republican frontrunner in the US Presidential race Donald Trump link
At a time Trump was clearly the runaway front-runner, and universally acknowledged as such, you predicted he'd be nominated. (Here again are the primary results.) Not impressive at all.

Your thoughts?
I knew that PS wouldn't respond to this. That's because it makes the shenanigans so painfully obvious. The facts are crystal clear. No mumbo jumbo to hide behind.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 08:49 AM   #2749
welshdean
Heb ei fai, heb ei eni
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,880
I kept up with this thread for 20 or so pages. The lack of predictions in a prediction thread kinda drove me away. To anyone that has kept up with the thread in its entirety, can you please point me to any accurate prediction(s) made by Part Skeptic.
Thanks in advance.
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."
Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 08:55 AM   #2750
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 21,473
Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
I kept up with this thread for 20 or so pages. The lack of predictions in a prediction thread kinda drove me away. To anyone that has kept up with the thread in its entirety, can you please point me to any accurate prediction(s) made by Part Skeptic.
Thanks in advance.
No. None exist.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:51 AM   #2751
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,159
Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
I kept up with this thread for 20 or so pages. The lack of predictions in a prediction thread kinda drove me away. To anyone that has kept up with the thread in its entirety, can you please point me to any accurate prediction(s) made by Part Skeptic.
Thanks in advance.
He correctly predicted that Trump would complete a full term. That's the only correct one I can think of offhand that was neither virtually certain when he made it, nor so vague that it could be subjectively validated whatever happened.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 11:08 AM   #2752
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
I am not in good enough shape to read and reply. Just wanted to share this:

After Sat and Sun at home, I was well enough to go to the (sold) factory to repair the alarm system. Lightning again. I was there four hours before I felt I had to leave. I got home and lay down. I suffered. Brain fog and dull headache. Nausea. Leg and hip pain.

This is different to the need to lie down because I feel fatigued. The brain fog is nasty. I cannot finish a thought before my mind jumps to another one. There seems to be no logic to the train of thought. The topic is itself muddled and not clear. A total inability to focus.

When I got up I went to have some antacid. The fizzy orange stuff. Normally I love the taste. This time it was horrible.

So this has been a consistent pattern for a while now. Stay at home for three or more days and I am okay in terms of energy and ability to work. Do not have a sick feeling.

Go out to the stores or to do some work and that afternoon I am struggling. The next day is usually quite bad even if I stay home. The day after that I am okay if it is the second day at home. I have to go to the factory tomorrow to finish the work. I am dreading it.


The posters on this thread simply refuse to accept the possibility that EMF is the cause of my bad symptoms after I go out. I am not talking about the fact that I have an ongoing underlying problems involving more than one cause. I am referring to the exacerbation of symptoms.

I think it is because the posters on this thread are so sure they are right, that they deny the possibility that I am right, in one or more ways. Most believers will at least admit there is the possibility that they are wrong, and that they believe without evidence.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 11:19 AM   #2753
PartSkeptic
Illuminator
 
PartSkeptic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South Africa
Posts: 3,977
For a particular reason, I started listening to short videos and debate excerpts of William Craig of Reasonable Faith.

What Craig does is show that many of the arguments used by atheists are illogical and in many cases fallacious. He does accept that the creation of Adam and Eve is somewhat mythological in its description.

What I found interesting is that he has a number of logical trains of thought as I do. There are points where we clearly differ. I make this observation to emphasize my statement that I am not espousing new and novel concepts.

Reincarnation is not new. A cosmic background to the gods and the universe somewhat like Brahman is not new. All life having souls is not new. Life being a simulation or illusion is not new (at least currently). All of these are not current Christian beliefs.
__________________
**Agnostic theist. God/Satan/Angels/Demons may not exist - but I choose to think the probability is that they do. By personal experience.**
PartSkeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 11:26 AM   #2754
EvilBiker
Spectral Challenger
 
EvilBiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,404
Dear Diary,

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
After Sat and Sun at home, I was well enough to go to the (sold) factory to repair the alarm system. Lightning again. I was there four hours before I felt I had to leave. I got home and lay down. I suffered. Brain fog and dull headache. Nausea. Leg and hip pain.

This is different to the need to lie down because I feel fatigued. The brain fog is nasty. I cannot finish a thought before my mind jumps to another one. There seems to be no logic to the train of thought. The topic is itself muddled and not clear. A total inability to focus.

When I got up I went to have some antacid. The fizzy orange stuff. Normally I love the taste. This time it was horrible.

So this has been a consistent pattern for a while now. Stay at home for three or more days and I am okay in terms of energy and ability to work. Do not have a sick feeling.

Go out to the stores or to do some work and that afternoon I am struggling. The next day is usually quite bad even if I stay home. The day after that I am okay if it is the second day at home. I have to go to the factory tomorrow to finish the work. I am dreading it.


The posters on this thread simply refuse to accept the possibility that EMF is the cause of my bad symptoms after I go out. I am not talking about the fact that I have an ongoing underlying problems involving more than one cause. I am referring to the exacerbation of symptoms.

I think it is because the posters on this thread are so sure they are right, that they deny the possibility that I am right, in one or more ways. Most believers will at least admit there is the possibility that they are wrong, and that they believe without evidence.
I think I’m onto something here...
__________________
Flat Earth Theory:
The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip.
EvilBiker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 11:36 AM   #2755
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Reincarnation is not new. A cosmic background to the gods and the universe somewhat like Brahman is not new. All life having souls is not new. Life being a simulation or illusion is not new (at least currently). All of these are not current Christian beliefs.
So what?
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 11:57 AM   #2756
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,735
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am not in good enough shape to read and reply. Just wanted to share this:
...
You know what I would do if I didn't feel well enough to read and reply? I wouldn't do either one- I certainly wouldn't assume some privilege to pompously lecture, whenever the spirits moved me, to people that I otherwise pay no more attention to, and have no more respect for, than to treat as some gullible and awed audience.

Just wanted to share that.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 01:06 PM   #2757
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 19,212
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am not in good enough shape to read and reply.
But you're obviously in good enough shape to, as turingtest says, pompously lecture everyone.

A number of people, including myself -- against our better judgment -- have continued to take you seriously and respond thoroughly and thoughtfully to your posts. It's frankly insulting when you ignore all of it, ramble on about personal circumstances that no one cares about, accuse everyone else of being closed-minded, and then just relitigate the same debunked nonsense you did before. Kindly do better.

Quote:
The posters on this thread simply refuse to accept the possibility that EMF is the cause of my bad symptoms after I go out.
"Accept the possibility" as what? It's certainly one of many hypotheses that can be tested. But it lacks prima facie credibility. You don't propose a scientifically tenable mechanism by which the effects you claim would occur. And you refuse to help collect the evidence that would test that hypothesis. Other hypotheses are not only more prima facie credible, they have been tested in others who claim the same things as you, with negative results.

The argument that critics "refuse to accept the possibility" is generally a straw man. It certainly is here. We do accept it as a possibility, even though it's highly unlikely on prima facie compared to other possibilities, and contrary to the evidence. And we're willing to work with you to collect the evidence that would test that possibility specifically in your case. If your claim were being categorically rejected, we wouldn't have had that months-long exercise in composing an experiment.

What you seem to want instead is for your critics to agree with you that it's the cause of your symptoms despite your unwillingness to provide the evidence that would support that agreement. And you know that will never happen here. So it seems your interest lies more in finding someone you can berate than in finding the cause of your illness.

Quote:
I think it is because the posters on this thread are so sure they are right...
Or simply that they have the knowledge and evidence to support the conclusion they've drawn, and would require additional evidence and sound reasoning to be led to a different conclusion such as what you propose. I'm not sure I'm right, but I would require evidence in order to be convinced otherwise. You don't have any evidence. So until you're willing to provide any, I'll stick with presumptions that are congruent with prima facie credibility and past experimental results. You bear the burden to overcome the null hypothesis with evidence. Whining that others won't lower the bar to let you get by on just your say-so makes you look childish.

Quote:
Most believers will at least admit there is the possibility that they are wrong, and that they believe without evidence.
You're the one categorically refusing to admit the possibility that something other than electromagnetic field energy is causing or exacerbating your symptoms. You are the one clinging to this idea despite having no credible evidence. You are the one steadfastly refusing to collect the evidence that would prove your belief. Others here have said they would accept your hypothesis if the evidence showed it to be the best explanation. Instead you're insisting that they take your word for it, no evidence. You are not the open-minded, reasonable one here.
JayUtah is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 01:45 PM   #2758
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,159
PartSkeptic is indeed the only poster contributing to this thread who has obstinately refused to consider the possibility that he might be wrong, despite not having a shred of objective evidence to support his outrageous claims.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 01:50 PM   #2759
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,527
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I knew that PS wouldn't respond to this. That's because it makes the shenanigans so painfully obvious. The facts are crystal clear. No mumbo jumbo to hide behind.
Hey back in 2016 PS was supporting Trump because he would have a more "even handed" approach to the Arab Isreali dispute.....that should tell you how much belief you should put in PS as a prophet.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 02:06 PM   #2760
welshdean
Heb ei fai, heb ei eni
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,880
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am not in good enough shape to read and reply. Just wanted to share this:

<snipped>


Yet you felt well enough to post that drivel, doesn't the lord indeed move in mysterious ways. ffs.

Not yet content with the crap you posted, you immediately waste our time with the professional liar, William Lane Craig. He has repeatedly peddled bullcrap after he'd been shown and proven to be wrong. Making millions by Lying For JesusTM, is not what the Jesus story espouses.
Please don't lie to us with your imaginary and very convenient 'ailments', address the questions and comments directed to you.
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."
Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP

Last edited by welshdean; 8th February 2021 at 02:07 PM.
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:30 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.