Continuation The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Resume

I was responding to the second sentence; should have edited.

Got it.

20 million doses in December would be cool. (No pun intended.) It would be nice if it happened, but I'll believe it when I see it.

\

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Got it.

20 million doses in December would be cool. (No pun intended.) It would be nice if it happened, but I'll believe it when I see it.

\

I don't see how it's possible. Could Trump be exaggerating?

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Resume

I don't see how it's possible. Could Trump be exaggerating?

Not in a million years.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Does the Army have supercold freezers?
https://slate.com/technology/2020/11...ply-chain.html

No but they can move them to where they are needed.]
This is going to require heavy logistics, and though you probably hate the militarry, moving heavy equipment is one thing the military is good at.
And I fully expect that a lot of the military's field hospitals are going to have to be used even before the vaccine is ready.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Regarding vaccine distribution, public health agencies did a reasonable job dispensing the 2009v flu vaccine. Seems ignorant to take the cue from Hollywood movies cough**Trump is an idiot**cough and fantasize that the military is needed. They don't have any freezers either. You can just as easily set public health up with the needed freezers.

Or it can be a public-private effort.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by dudalb

...
And I fully expect that a lot of the military's field hospitals are going to have to be used even before the vaccine is ready.

We are getting close to that option regardless of vaccine distribution.

Trump's neglect has let this second wave (and I do think we can call it that now) get out of control!

Hospitals though, are not the place we need to use to vaccinate people. You vaccinate people before they need the hospital.

[dudalb]

Just came across this piece of lunacy on a WAPO forum:

Quote:

The leftist Big Media's Orwellian obsession with fascistic approaches to the pandemic is accelerating now that China Joe Biden is the purported winner of the most corrupt presidential election in modern U.S. history. "Give us more tyranny!," the parrot media squeal on cue. Orwell was spot on, but a bit off about the exact year all this would happen.
Notice how the leftist media deliberately use scary percentages and other numbers out of context to scare the public. The editorial would have us believe that South Dakotans are dropping like flies from the virus, but a quick check reveals that fewer than 550 people in the ENTIRE STATE are hospitalized because of it. Most of those people will recover quickly. The Covid survival rate is 99 percent and climbing, and experts say many of the deaths blamed on the virus actually are caused by other factors.
What's more, recent investigations show that Covid testing itself is a huge scam designed to produce obscene profits for Big Pharma and Big Health Care. Engineering guru Elon Musk just tweeted that "something very strange is going on" with the tests that often produce false positives. Critics say many labs use oversensitive testing procedures to create a flood of false positives, and labs in Florida last summer admitted they had reported positives at levels dozens or hundreds of times the accurate numbers.
Bottom line: Now is no time for heavy-handed mask mandates or completely debunked lockdowns to fight the virus. Our best bet are the vaccines -- but the Democrats already have announced plans to block their distribution. Orwell would not be surprised.

My Irony meter just blew up at the Orwell reference.
I am betting this was posted from some office on the outskirts of Moscow...the one in Russia, not Idaho.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

We are getting close to that option regardless of vaccine distribution.

Trump's neglect has let this second wave (and I do think we can call it that now) get out of control!

Hospitals though, are not the place we need to use to vaccinate people. You vaccinate people before they need the hospital.

I fully expect the Military is going to be used in as number of ways before we are out of this mess.
Agreed with the last sentence, but we are going to need every piece of hospital space we can get before this is over.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by dudalb

No but they can move them to where they are needed.]
This is going to require heavy logistics, and though you probably hate the militarry, moving heavy equipment is one thing the military is good at.
And I fully expect that a lot of the military's field hospitals are going to have to be used even before the vaccine is ready.

Why would you think I hate the military? Nothing I said would support such speculation. But since you asked, I see the military as a cumbersome bureaucracy. I don't see it as the best first choice for dealing with civilian problems. FedEx, UPS and Amazon also have experience with shipping and delivering stuff, and every state, city and county has a local health department.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I fully expect the Military is going to be used in as number of ways before we are out of this mess.
Agreed with the last sentence, but we are going to need every piece of hospital space we can get before this is over.

In the UK, getting the military involved is an indication that you're taking something very seriously, regardless of whether or not they can make a significant difference.

Absolutely the worst thing you can do is just leave the existing civilian authorities to handle something - even if they can do it effectively and cost-efficiently.

Setting up a new and vastly expensive private sector initiative is the second best thing you can do - even if it doesn't work and you have to resort to using the original public sector systems (although branding them to align with the private sector).

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by dudalb

No but they can move them to where they are needed.]
This is going to require heavy logistics, and though you probably hate the militarry, moving heavy equipment is one thing the military is good at.
And I fully expect that a lot of the military's field hospitals are going to have to be used even before the vaccine is ready.

Out of curiousity, where does the highlighted comment come from? Some dumb stereotype about how the left hates the military because of general sentiments along the lines of too much of the budget being used there (more than the next 10 countries combined really does seem excessive, after all) when it could be used more productively in internal affairs (and alternative ways to influence foreign powers) and objections towards what are seen as misuses of our military might?

[Delphic Oracle]

The Army Corps of Engineers had plans ready back in April or so to set up clinics in convention center type locations, large outdoor parks/fairgrounds, or other adaptable locations for non-COVID medical space.

Not too grand a departure from that idea to doing the same to administer vaccines.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Just came across this piece of lunacy on a WAPO forum:


My Irony meter just blew up at the Orwell reference.
I am betting this was posted from some office on the outskirts of Moscow...the one in Russia, not Idaho.

Don't be ridiculous. St Petersburg

[Trebuchet]

Worldometer now has USA deaths over 250,000. A quarter of a million nobodies, according to Don Junior.

[newyorkguy]

From various comments in the news -- including from Joe Biden -- I don't think it's realistic that 20 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine will be distributed before the end of the year. The New York Times reports:

Quote:

Pfizer has said that it will likely apply for emergency authorization in the third week of November, after it collects the two months of safety data that the F.D.A. has asked manufacturers to submit. Then, the agency will consult with an outside advisory committee of experts, and may take weeks to pore over detailed data about the vaccine’s safety, effectiveness, and the companies’ ability to safely manufacture millions of doses. The vaccine could be authorized for certain high-risk populations before the end of the year, but that would only happen if everything goes as planned and there are no unforeseen delays. Times link

I hope the FDA will be able to resist political pressure and proceed carefully. When I worked in over-the-counter drug manufacturing -- we made the products for other companies -- I was involved after the fact in a case where a huge amount of money was spent developing a medical treatment drug. The treatment looked very promising but it gradually became clear it also posed a significant danger of users developing heart disease. The business side of the pharmaceutical company put enormous pressure on the testing people to obscure this in their test results and the drug got approved and went on the market. Doctors soon began to see an alarming rise in heart disease among patients using the new drug and they blew the whistle. I am in no way suggesting Pfizer is or would do something like this, but there ARE risks in new treatments. There are real dangers that are not always apparent at first, sometimes the problems only emerge over time. New drugs need to be thoroughly vetted before being released to the general public and I emphasize 'thoroughly.' You couldn't have a worse person involved than donald trump.

[newyorkguy]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Worldometer now has USA deaths over 250,000. A quarter of a million nobodies, according to Don Junior.

Yesterday new cases rose to over 180,000 in a single day. Over five times the number of cases the U.S. was recording in April and May. Very scary.

[Captain_Swoop]

Trump Tweets about his administration producing a vaccine ahead of schedule and why New York isn't getting any.

I LOVE NEW YORK! As everyone knows, the Trump Administration has produced a great and safe VACCINE far ahead of schedule. Another Administration would have taken five years. The problem is, @NYGovCuomo said that he will delay using it, and other states WANT IT NOW...

....We cannot waste time and can only give to those states that will use the Vaccine immediately. Therefore the New York delay. Many lives to be saved, but we are ready when they are. Stop playing politics!

[Resume]

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
11,226,038
Deaths:
251,256

New Cases:
157,081
New Deaths:
1,260

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I fully expect the Military is going to be used in as number of ways before we are out of this mess.
Agreed with the last sentence, but we are going to need every piece of hospital space we can get before this is over.

Not sure what role you see for the military except for the hospital beds.

We've already used the public/private mechanism to distribute the 2000v vaccine. It went pretty well. The same criteria occurred then, health care workers and hi-risk folks first.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

...

Not too grand a departure from that idea to doing the same to administer vaccines.

Yes it is. Apples and oranges. The infrastructure is in place for one but not the other.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets about his administration producing a vaccine ahead of schedule and why New York isn't getting any.

I LOVE NEW YORK! As everyone knows, the Trump Administration has produced a great and safe VACCINE far ahead of schedule. Another Administration would have taken five years. The problem is, @NYGovCuomo said that he will delay using it, and other states WANT IT NOW...

....We cannot waste time and can only give to those states that will use the Vaccine immediately. Therefore the New York delay. Many lives to be saved, but we are ready when they are. Stop playing politics!

He's going to be claiming that until he dies and then his kids will take on the mantle.

The rest of it is typical Trump pettipants.

[Meadmaker]

I see that the US has fallen to 9th place worldwide in per capita Covid deaths. The UK death rate has been climbing rapidly, and they have moved back ahead of the US. Also, Mexico has gone ahead.

A month or so ago I said it looked like the US would pass Spain before election day, but that was not even close to correct. The Spanish death rate has exploded in that time, and the US is no longer even close.


I'll be glad when we start participating in the WHO on January 21. Seems like it might facilitate data sharing.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

....
I hope the FDA will be able to resist political pressure and proceed carefully.
.....

I'm willing to trust Doc Fauci. If he says it's okay I'll believe him. If Trump starts purging NIH, CDC, FDA etc. the way he's going after the Pentagon, we're all screwed.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Yes it is. Apples and oranges. The infrastructure is in place for one but not the other.

I understand there are transport and storage issues with some vaccines. I don't expect the Army Corps would be involved in that aspect.

I understand the way a vaccine clinic is set up is different from how a treatment ward is set up.

I trust that they have plans for both which were developed some time ago and the personnel know how to load the trucks for the mission plan.

I'm moving on now.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I understand there are transport and storage issues with some vaccines. I don't expect the Army Corps would be involved in that aspect.

I understand the way a vaccine clinic is set up is different from how a treatment ward is set up.

I trust that they have plans for both which were developed some time ago and the personnel know how to load the trucks for the mission plan.

I'm moving on now.

Public health already has the vaccination infrastructure in place. They have been involved in vaccine distribution and administration for decades. There are state and county public health agencies in every state and county in the country.

It's about more than the proper freezers and some trucks.


Edited to add after watching the news: Apparently Trump is planning to use CVS and Walgreens to distribute the vaccine. Neither of those pharmacies are equipped to administer long lines of vaccine recipients. So I'm not sure what Trump has in mind except doling out government contracts to his cronies.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I see that the US has fallen to 9th place worldwide in per capita Covid deaths. The UK death rate has been climbing rapidly, and they have moved back ahead of the US.

The UK government has put the country back into lockdown. The US government looks likely to be effectively non-existent for the next two months. With most state governors seemingly unable to get their act together, I expect to see the US overtake the UK again before Christmas.

[Architect]

It would be more accurate to say that the Westminster government has put England into lockdown. The other Home Nations have different approaches.

[Captain_Swoop]

Trump Tweets

Thank you Mark, but the Fake News Media will never say it!
Quote Tweet

Mark R. Levin
History will show that President Trump had the greatest, most effective response to a pandemic in world history. Subscribe for free to the Mark Levin Show podcast and listen to yesterday's show.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000498549058

[Firestone]

The only positive I see here, is that if Trump takes credit for the vaccine, at least some of the anti vaxxers in his "base" will be inclined to actually get the vaccine, when available.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Public health already has the vaccination infrastructure in place. They have been involved in vaccine distribution and administration for decades. There are state and county public health agencies in every state and county in the country.

It's about more than the proper freezers and some trucks.


Edited to add after watching the news: Apparently Trump is planning to use CVS and Walgreens to distribute the vaccine. Neither of those pharmacies are equipped to administer long lines of vaccine recipients. So I'm not sure what Trump has in mind except doling out government contracts to his cronies.

I made a simple statement about the capabilities of the ACoE.

If you want to continue discussing whatever it is you're talking about, please find someone to have that conversation with.

[newyorkguy]

At trump's first press conference since the election, on Friday, he was reported to have said the vaccine will not be widely available until April. trump and other administration officials did not address the steeply rising number of new cases -- some public health officials say the virus is clearly out of control -- but trump emphasized his administration will not support a lockdown.

Quote:

“I can tell you this administration will not go to a lockdown.” CNBC link

trump was also quoted as saying the vaccine will not be available to the general public until April at the earliest. From CBS News:

Quote:

President Trump, in his first public remarks since President-elect Joe Biden was projected the winner of the election, said the COVID-19 vaccine could be widely available as soon as April. CBS link

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

Thank you Mark, but the Fake News Media will never say it!
Quote Tweet

Mark R. Levin
History will show that President Trump had the greatest, most effective response to a pandemic in world history. Subscribe for free to the Mark Levin Show podcast and listen to yesterday's show.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000498549058

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I made a simple statement about the capabilities of the ACoE.

If you want to continue discussing whatever it is you're talking about, please find someone to have that conversation with.

I don't think my posts require you to defend this:

Quote:

The Army Corps of Engineers had plans ready back in April or so to set up clinics in convention center type locations, large outdoor parks/fairgrounds, or other adaptable locations for non-COVID medical space.

Not too grand a departure from that idea to doing the same to administer vaccines.

But why should I not point out that it is a "grand departure"?

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I don't think my posts require you to defend this:

But why should I not point out that it is a "grand departure"?

You and I seem to have different ideas about what does or does not constitute a "grand departure."

How much more time would you like to spend on this pissing contest?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

You and I seem to have different ideas about what does or does not constitute a "grand departure."

How much more time would you like to spend on this pissing contest?

Why do you think this is a pissing contest?

You said you were done, but you weren't. Now you've added

Quote:

You and I seem to have different ideas about what does or does not constitute a "grand departure."

There are a number of reasons it is indeed a grand departure. I have posted what they were.

It's not personal. There are other people hearing Trump's army will do it. My issue isn't you, it's people with the misguided idea about the role of the military including the Army Corp during a pandemic.

If you have no more to add other than not liking my posts, your comments are not needed.

[newyorkguy]

Health officials have made it clear, the military will have no role, or a very limited one, in distributing Covid-19 vaccines. Below is a quote from Reason dot com, a story published several weeks ago.

Quote:

Despite President Donald Trump's claims, the U.S. military likely won't play much of a role in distributing a COVID-19 vaccine. "We have a vaccine that's coming...the military is going to distribute the vaccine." Trump has been using variations of this line for months—as far back as May. Reason link

Not surprisingly, the reality is different from what our 'president' believes it to be.

Quote:

"Our best military assessment is that there is sufficient U.S. commercial transportation capacity to fully support vaccine distribution," Department of Defense (DOD) spokesman Charles Pritchard told American Shipper, a logistics industry publication, last month.

Also not surprisingly, the website Before It's News -- described as a website that "regularly publishes false information and conspiracy theories" -- put up a story, without any evidence (gee, just like our president!), that the military was going to be used in order to forcibly administer the vaccine to people who don't want it. From FactCheck dot org:

Quote:

“Trump has the military lined up and ready to distribute this vaccine to the public, whether you want it or not,” the article reads, adding: “If you decide you don’t want it, don’t worry, the military will help convince you.” FactCheck link

Naturally, the article -- headlined "The Government Has Released Their Initial Plans to Force a Vaccine on Everyone" -- went 'viral.'

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Why do you think this is a pissing contest?

You said you were done, but you weren't. Now you've added There are a number of reasons it is indeed a grand departure. I have posted what they were.

It's not personal. There are other people hearing Trump's army will do it. My issue isn't you, it's people with the misguided idea about the role of the military including the Army Corp during a pandemic.

If you have no more to add other than not liking my posts, your comments are not needed.

Can this finally end now?

[newyorkguy]

“If you decide you don’t want it, don’t worry, the military will help convince you.”

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

Also not surprisingly, the website Before It's News -- described as a website that "regularly publishes false information and conspiracy theories" -- put up a story, without any evidence...

Nonsense, the evidence is right here:-

"We have a vaccine that's coming, it's ready... It's going to be announced within weeks, and it's going to be delivered. We have Operation Warp Speed, which is the military, is going to distribute the vaccine." - Donald J Trump, President of the United States of America

The idea that our president would lie about such a thing is - incomprehensible

[dudalb]

A lot of people in this thread just plain hate the military.
And that is a major reason why I don'tlike to call myself a Liberal or a Progessive; too ,many of them just plain despise the military.
I served four years in the US Army and am proud of my service. I guess that mekes me a Facists in the eyes of aome people here.