Continuation The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

[Captain_Swoop]

Trump Tweets

VACCINES ARE COMING FAST!!!

[Captain_Swoop]

Trump Tweets

THE COVID DRUGS NOW AVAILABLE TO MAKE PROPLE BETTER ARE AMAZING, BUT SELDOM TALKED ABOUT BY THE MEDIA! Mortality rate is 85% down!

[newyorkguy]

Ironically, one of trump's favorite memes -- more testing! -- is in part behind the drop in Covid-19 mortality.

Quote:

Regardless of the exact data, Trump is correct that the case fatality rate has fallen substantially since April. Where he goes wrong is in attributing the steep decline to treatment improvements when other factors are also at play...“In the early days, only the sickest cases were getting diagnosed, so unsurprisingly a higher % of these died relative to now, when many other cases are identified,” explained [University of Pennsylvania infectious disease fellow Dr. Aaron] Richterman. Link to Fact Check . org

[sphenisc]

Originally Posted by Darat

No they didn’t.

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/cl...ata-published/

[Delphic Oracle]

Another reminder from within my circle of loved ones that despite lofty promises of plentiful testing that is free (if you have insurance), there is an imposing wall of services with fees attached to access said tests.

A few exceptions exists, but takes digging around to find drive-thru self-administered tests. My own experience with this back in late spring was 2-1/2 weeks of waiting for an indeterminate result. A family member was part of the marketing firm that handled promotional graphics and such, but they related that the lab basically failed on their contract terms, a total ****-show.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by sphenisc

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/cl...ata-published/

As far as I am aware we haven’t invented time travel......

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Darat

No they didn’t.

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP> Edited for rule 12.

The question of side effects of the Oxford vaccine is really a side issue in a post I brought up where I was asking about Donald Trump's claimed involvement in vaccine development. In the post I was wondering how other nations, and I will add other leaders, have contributed to vaccine development. Thanks to people who provided information on the subject.


As for the issue of side effects of the Oxford vaccine, if the truth be told, it was just something that made headlines in September, and my sister brought up to me last week. She follows this sort of thing closely because she has MS, and is aware that she may have special concerns when it comes to side effects, so she likes to stay informed. By coincidence, there were headlines today about the Oxford vaccine showing promise, so whatever issue came up in September, it seems to not be impeding results. My sister said there was a problem, and if you can't trust secondhand information provided by the sister of some guy on the internet, who can you trust?

(In all seriousness, she does actually do quite a good job at looking up this sort of thing, but I have no idea if she is right or wrong on what she said about the Oxford vaccine, and I wouldn't be able to describe what she said. She went beyond the headlines and into journal articles, and said she won't be taking the Oxford-Astrozenica vaccine if it is released, but it was due to her special circumstances, and not based on a general problem with it that ought to cause others concern.)

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

THE COVID DRUGS NOW AVAILABLE TO MAKE PROPLE BETTER ARE AMAZING, BUT SELDOM TALKED ABOUT BY THE MEDIA! Mortality rate is 85% down!

Yet nearly 2 thousand died yesterday.

[eeyore1954]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Another reminder from within my circle of loved ones that despite lofty promises of plentiful testing that is free (if you have insurance), there is an imposing wall of services with fees attached to access said tests.

A few exceptions exists, but takes digging around to find drive-thru self-administered tests. My own experience with this back in late spring was 2-1/2 weeks of waiting for an indeterminate result. A family member was part of the marketing firm that handled promotional graphics and such, but they related that the lab basically failed on their contract terms, a total ****-show.

Maybe it is a state issue but my son was able to call and arrange for a free test without an imposing wall of services. He took the test the same day he called (drive through self administered) on a Saturday morning and got the results Monday (negative). He does not have insurance and we live in NY. He had several options of where to go.

[eeyore1954]

Originally Posted by Resume

Yet nearly 2 thousand died yesterday.

Not sure of my math but according to his reasoning there would have been over 13,000 if not for the advances. Clearly a lot of the lowering is because of more testing but advances along with other factors have lowered the mortality rate.

Quote:

Instead, a new investigation showed that by mid-August, the death rate in those hospitalized with coronavirus-related illness had dropped from 25.6 percentage points to about 7.6 percentage points. Led by researchers at NYU Grossman School of Medicine, the study showed that a younger, healthier group of people were getting infected and were arriving at the hospital with less severe symptoms than those infected in the spring.

I hate to say it but in NY maybe a good percentage of those more likely to die already did. But I think nationwide studies have also shown improvements.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Another content free post, brought to you by Darat. Keep up the good work.



The question of side effects of the Oxford vaccine is really a side issue in a post I brought up where I was asking about Donald Trump's claimed involvement in vaccine development. In the post I was wondering how other nations, and I will add other leaders, have contributed to vaccine development. Thanks to people who provided information on the subject.





As for the issue of side effects of the Oxford vaccine, if the truth be told, it was just something that made headlines in September, and my sister brought up to me last week. She follows this sort of thing closely because she has MS, and is aware that she may have special concerns when it comes to side effects, so she likes to stay informed. By coincidence, there were headlines today about the Oxford vaccine showing promise, so whatever issue came up in September, it seems to not be impeding results. My sister said there was a problem, and if you can't trust secondhand information provided by the sister of some guy on the internet, who can you trust?



(In all seriousness, she does actually do quite a good job at looking up this sort of thing, but I have no idea if she is right or wrong on what she said about the Oxford vaccine, and I wouldn't be able to describe what she said. She went beyond the headlines and into journal articles, and said she won't be taking the Oxford-Astrozenica vaccine if it is released, but it was due to her special circumstances, and not based on a general problem with it that ought to cause others concern.)

For some of us facts are important.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

Not sure of my math but according to his reasoning there would have been over 13,000 if not for the advances. Clearly a lot of the lowering is because of more testing but advances along with other factors have lowered the mortality rate.

According to him, he's saved 2 millions lives. So a quarter million dead (so far) is no big deal.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Darat

For some of us facts are important.

Apparently not important enough to share.


Come on, Darat. Do your part. I know ISF doesn't have an "E" in it, but you're old enough to understand the principle.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Apparently not important enough to share.


Come on, Darat. Do your part. I know ISF doesn't have an "E" in it, but you're old enough to understand the principle.

Safety and immunogenicity of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine administered in a prime-boost regimen in young and old adults (COV002): a single-blind, randomised, controlled, phase 2/3 trial

Quote:

The serious adverse events observed during the trial in these study groups were judged to be unrelated to the study vaccines and occurred at frequencies expected for these conditions in the general population. None of the participants included in this report had any suspected unexpected serious adverse reactions...

We carefully monitored suspected unexpected serious adverse reactions and other adverse events to ensure that no pattern of unexplained illnesses emerged that could indicate a safety concern. Independent assessments have led to the recommendation that the trial is safe to continue.

[Bob001]

What do we say to the substantial percentage of the population that insists it will never take a covid vaccine? I talked to a fairly well-educated and generally responsible person recently who never gets flu shots because she "has heard about people dying from them." She doesn't think a covid vaccine could even work. No amount of rational debate sinks through. If we get to a point where half the population is vaccinated and the other half thinks it's all a hoax, what then?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Bob001

What do we say to the substantial percentage of the population that insists it will never take a covid vaccine? I talked to a fairly well-educated and generally responsible person recently who never gets flu shots because she "has heard about people dying from them." She doesn't think a covid vaccine could even work. No amount of rational debate sinks through. If we get to a point where half the population is vaccinated and the other half thinks it's all a hoax, what then?

"LOL just ignore them." That's what I keep getting told.

We've just aggressively been shouted down for years now whenever we wanted to address the "Okay... but what do we do with people who just keep being wrong?" problem. It's a little late to ask this question now.

I'm sorry the problem has leaked into topics broader than Bigfoot and HAARP but... some people were trying to figure out what to do with reality denying proud ignorance for a while now with no support.

Welcome to the Club. The world is starting to grasp what being a skeptic has always felt like.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Bob001

What do we say to the substantial percentage of the population that insists it will never take a covid vaccine? I talked to a fairly well-educated and generally responsible person recently who never gets flu shots because she "has heard about people dying from them." She doesn't think a covid vaccine could even work. No amount of rational debate sinks through. If we get to a point where half the population is vaccinated and the other half thinks it's all a hoax, what then?

I think most people will take the vaccine once it is no longer a hypothetical. When there's a real vaccine, and people can look at what happened in trials, and make all the required judgements, they will come round.

Of course, the key word is "most". Some people won't, regardless of the information available. So, if "most" people take it, then a lot more than half will be vaccinated. As for the rest, we can only afford so many Darwin award trophies. The rest of their families will have to accept printed certificates.

But let's be fair to people who say, today, that they won't take the vaccine. Why not? I think they are a bit like the Vice-President Elect, who said (quoting from memory) "If Anthony Fauci says I should take a vaccine, I'll take a vaccine, but if Donald Trump says it, no way." People are kind of in that position right now. They hear vague rumors that there will soon be a vaccine, but details are sketchy, and we have heard that they have been tested as safe, but there is so much information and misinformation going around that the average person just hasn't had time to sort it out. When there is one vaccine that is available to real people and it's a real thing with a name that people can look up, I think there will be greater acceptance.

At least I hope.

ETA: It occurs to me that for the vaccines that have been grabbing headlines, the manufacturing capacity isn't big enough to get it for most people, anyway, so it will be given to a select few, first. That will cause the Teeming Millions to get bent out of shape that they can't have it. They'll be demanding it right now! But, in fact, it will take long enough to deliver it that if there are any big issues we will know, because nurses will be dying from it.

[eeyore1954]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I think most people will take the vaccine once it is no longer a hypothetical. When there's a real vaccine, and people can look at what happened in trials, and make all the required judgements, they will come round.

Of course, the key word is "most". Some people won't, regardless of the information available. So, if "most" people take it, then a lot more than half will be vaccinated. As for the rest, we can only afford so many Darwin award trophies. The rest of their families will have to accept printed certificates.

But let's be fair to people who say, today, that they won't take the vaccine. Why not? I think they are a bit like the Vice-President Elect, who said (quoting from memory) "If Anthony Fauci says I should take a vaccine, I'll take a vaccine, but if Donald Trump says it, no way." People are kind of in that position right now. They hear vague rumors that there will soon be a vaccine, but details are sketchy, and we have heard that they have been tested as safe, but there is so much information and misinformation going around that the average person just hasn't had time to sort it out. When there is one vaccine that is available to real people and it's a real thing with a name that people can look up, I think there will be greater acceptance.

At least I hope.

ETA: It occurs to me that for the vaccines that have been grabbing headlines, the manufacturing capacity isn't big enough to get it for most people, anyway, so it will be given to a select few, first. That will cause the Teeming Millions to get bent out of shape that they can't have it. They'll be demanding it right now! But, in fact, it will take long enough to deliver it that if there are any big issues we will know, because nurses will be dying from it.

People I know are worried about long term effects and also what if you have some conditions that make you more likely to succumb to the disease. Will you be more likely to have a problem with the vaccine?

According to this poll close to 60% will take it. As time goes on and more people have died this will probably increase especially if more have taken it with few problems. https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2...l-disparities/

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

People I know are worried about long term effects and also what if you have some conditions that make you more likely to succumb to the disease. Will you be more likely to have a problem with the vaccine?

According to this poll close to 60% will take it. As time goes on and more people have died this will probably increase especially if more have taken it with few problems. https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2...l-disparities/

Exactly. (That's like my sister an the MS issue I brought up earlier.) People are right to be cautious at this moment. Even if it's safe for most people, it's reasonable to ask if I am part of "most people", and there isn't much information available to us that aren't scouring medical journals.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by eeyore1954

People I know are worried about long term effects and also what if you have some conditions that make you more likely to succumb to the disease. Will you be more likely to have a problem with the vaccine?
....

It's pretty clear that the first recipients will most likely be health care workers and the elderly. I'm betting that by the time it gets to the rest of us any possible side-effects will be apparent.

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

Ironically, one of trump's favorite memes -- more testing! -- is in part behind the drop in Covid-19 mortality.

Of course more testing decreases the mortality rate. I'm amazed he didn't see that himself.

[alfaniner]

Originally Posted by Bob001

It's pretty clear that the first recipients will most likely be health care workers and the elderly. I'm betting that by the time it gets to the rest of us any possible side-effects will be apparent.

I'm sure the first recipients will be the White House personnel, Congress, and the Supreme Court. And I'm OK with that.

The next round (or first mass round) will be health care workers. I'm not sure who gets to be third -- the elderly, or the very rich?

[newyorkguy]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

Ironically, one of trump's favorite memes -- more testing! -- is in part behind the drop in Covid-19 mortality.

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Of course more testing decreases the mortality rate. I'm amazed he didn't see that himself.

I'm amazed and I'm not amazed. trump appears to have a very hazy understanding of any issue he bloviates about. As one of the doctor's quoted in a related piece said, in April the testing kits were so scarce in his area they only tested people who had serious symptoms. That accounts in part for the high mortality rate: you had to be pretty sick to get tested. As testing capability increased -- and eventually it increased dramatically -- it reached the point where medical centers were offering tests to anyone who wanted one.

The Fact Check article actually deals, though, with trump's claim that the drop in mortality was due to advances in treatment. Typical was this statement by trump:

Quote:

“Due to the medical advances we’ve already achieved and our increased knowledge in how to treat the virus,” he said in a July 27 briefing in North Carolina, “the mortality rate for patients over the age of 18 is 85% lower than it was in April — think of that: 85%.”

Doctors dispute that. Fact Check found most say few proven therapies exist for COVID-19. Dr. Eric Meyerowitz, an infectious disease specialist with the Montefiore Health System in the Bronx, told Fact Check, in late September, "We are nowhere close [to] a cure."

What is striking in this story, and many many others I have seen, when news reporters contact the trump administration for more information, they usually get no response. trump is the guy, after all, who loudly complains that the news media is biased against him and refuses to give his side of the story. Yet when the news media tries to get his side of the story they usually get the response Fact Check got when they asked the trump administration for more details on the decline in Covid-19 mortality and the role new drugs played in it.

Quote:

Neither the White House nor the Trump campaign responded to repeated inquiries about the source of the 85% statistic.

Of course the obvious answer is, it's all an elaborate con. trump is claiming there are now very effective treatments for Covid-19 but he has nothing to back those claims up with. When the media asks for more information, trump and his staff simply ignore them. Realistically, they have no other choice. The fallback for trump is, he knows his hardcore base will believe it or at least claim to believe it.

As we've seen -- and as history will undoubtedly record -- this scenario has been disastrous when played out against a virulent pandemic.

[Resume]

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
12,070,712
Deaths:
258,333

New Cases:
192,186
New Deaths:
2,065

[newyorkguy]

Incredibly we are already over 12 million cases. We broke 10 million on November 6 and 11 million seven days later on November 13th. We went over twelve million in just six days. We're now running at better than one million new cases per week. Health officials fear, with the onset of cold weather and the holiday season, the worst is yet to come.

Quote:

The US should prepare for “a whole lot of hurt” under the coronavirus pandemic, senior public health expert Anthony Fauci has said, predicting a winter of 100,000 or more cases a day and a rising death toll. The Guardian

Quote:

"People are tired of hearing Fauci and these idiots, all these idiots who got it wrong." - trump
NPR

[newyorkguy]

This is from Forbes:

Quote:

Vice President Mike Pence acknowledged coronavirus infections and hospitalizations are rising across the U.S. during the first briefing by the White House coronavirus task force since July, striking a far different tone than President Trump, who was not in attendance as he continues to rage against the election results in relative solitude...Thursday marked the first time in seven months Dr. Deborah Birx and Dr. Anthony Fauci—who were both sidelined by Trump after the initial pandemic surge—were in the briefing room together. Forbes

Hard to believe you could find 73 people who would have voted for trump, much less over 73 million people who actually did.

[dirtywick]

i mean it's hard to imagine fewer cases in the sub zero months in january.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Bob001

It's pretty clear that the first recipients will most likely be health care workers and the elderly. I'm betting that by the time it gets to the rest of us any possible side-effects will be apparent.

And Trump's poison Tweeter pen will not be in the news. Remember also, he's pushing the miracle vaccine. That alone will make the vaccine more acceptable and less of a "my freedom" issue.

And add to that the virus is skyrocketing in all the 'my freedom' states.

[Captain_Swoop]

Trump Retweeted

Hydroxychloroquine News
@niro60487270
I have seen the claim that the United States has a higher fatality rate from Covid-19 than other wealthy nations. This claim appears to be entirely false and perhaps politically motivated.

[newyorkguy]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Retweeted
Hydroxychloroquine News
@niro60487270
I have seen the claim that the United States has a higher fatality rate from Covid-19 than other wealthy nations. This claim appears to be entirely false and perhaps politically motivated.

As the number of news cases soar and the death rate climbs, our president uses his leadership to calm a troubled nation.

What a dirtbag.

[Checkmite]

The ironic thing about all the effort Trump is putting into attaching his name to vaccine development efforts is that half is base is anti-vax.

[Captain_Swoop]

AFP News Agency
@AFP
BREAKING Trump's son Donald Jr tested positive for Covid-19

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

This is from Forbes:

Hard to believe you could find 73 people who would have voted for trump, much less over 73 million people who actually did.

It makes you wonder where people get their information. If people learn about the world entirely from Fox and AM radio, their vote isn't that big a surprise.

[Resume]

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
12,274,726
Deaths:
260,283

New Cases:
201,083
New Deaths:
1,951

The numbers after the holiday ought to be fun.

[nelsondogg]

A million plus a week... Crazy.

[Segnosaur]

Add one more to the list of Covid-19 cases...

From: CBC (Canada)
Donald Trump Jr., the eldest son of U.S. President Donald Trump, was quarantining Friday after learning he has been infected with the coronavirus...The younger Trump learned of his diagnosis at the beginning of the week and has had no symptoms...

Not that I expect it to change Trump's attitude towards the virus. Maybe if Ivanka got it...

[Skeptic Ginger]

If you are rich and a friend of Trump's you get special monoclonal antibody treatment.

NPR: Ben Carson Says He Was 'Desperately Ill' With The Coronavirus

Quote:

Ben Carson, secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development, took to Facebook on Friday to report he has been "extremely sick" with the coronavirus. But Carson, one of several individuals in the Trump administration who recently contracted the virus, said the worst is behind him.

Carson said his initial symptoms were light, but then he became "desperately ill," and noted that he has "several co-morbidities" that played a role.

"President Trump was following my condition and cleared me for the monoclonal antibody therapy that he had previously received, which I am convinced saved my life," Carson wrote. He said he is now "out of the woods."

I'm trying not to begrudge this, that's great he survived. What about those other 250,000+ people who died? What about me or my son if we get deathly ill from COVID?

That vaccine can't come soon enough.


Upon further investigation: FDA: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Authorizes Monoclonal Antibody for Treatment of COVID-19

Quote:

Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued an emergency use authorization (EUA) for the investigational monoclonal antibody therapy bamlanivimab for the treatment of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 in adult and pediatric patients. Bamlanivimab is authorized for patients with positive results of direct SARS-CoV-2 viral testing who are 12 years of age and older weighing at least 40 kilograms (about 88 pounds), and who are at high risk for progressing to severe COVID-19 and/or hospitalization. This includes those who are 65 years of age or older, or who have certain chronic medical conditions.

While the safety and effectiveness of this investigational therapy continues to be evaluated, bamlanivimab was shown in clinical trials to reduce COVID-19-related hospitalization or emergency room visits in patients at high risk for disease progression within 28 days after treatment when compared to placebo.

Bamlanivimab is not authorized for patients who are hospitalized due to COVID-19 or require oxygen therapy due to COVID-19. A benefit of bamlanivimab treatment has not been shown in patients hospitalized due to COVID-19. Monoclonal antibodies, such as bamlanivimab, may be associated with worse clinical outcomes when administered to hospitalized patients with COVID-19 requiring high flow oxygen or mechanical ventilation.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

USA Today article
“ She tweeted after her frustration boiled over, as she recalled numerous patients whose dying words echoed the same theme: ‘This can't be happening. It's not real.’”

Can there be a more obvious sign of cult-like behavior than sticking to the “It’s fake” story to the point of lying on one’s deathbed and refusing to call or face-time relatives in order to say one’s last goodbyes?



Paging Senator Vreenak.
.

[newyorkguy]

With new cases surging in California -- a rise that began in mid-October -- Governor Gavin Newsom has announced new restrictions.

Quote:

California Gov. Gavin Newsom on Thursday announced that the majority of the state will be under a limited stay-at-home order starting Saturday due to rising coronavirus cases. The announcement brings a monthlong curfew between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. for residents in 41 counties, covering roughly 94% of the state's population. Newsom said earlier this week he was pulling an "emergency brake," halting further reopening plans, tightening restrictions on indoor businesses and strengthening mask mandates...he state's COVID-19 positivity rate has jumped 52% in the last two weeks. COVID-19 hospitalizations have increased by 63.6% during the same period. Axios

In Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot is asking residents to stay home and is imposing a 10-person restriction on gatherings. Like California, Illinois saw the virus begin to surge in mid-October.

Quote:

“Chicago has reached a critical point in the second surge of COVID-19, demanding that we undertake this multi-faceted and comprehensive effort to stop the virus in its tracks,” Mayor Lightfoot said in a news release. “The gains we have made this past year have been the result of our willingness to work together," she added. Axios

I think behind the scenes -- and this fact seems lost to the people who oppose the restrictions -- concerns the local health systems are becoming dangerously strained is driving this. That they have reached the point where government leaders are being urged to impose restrictions to try and slow the surge. Realistically, what else can they do?

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

If you are rich and a friend of Trump's you get special monoclonal antibody treatment.

It'll be interesting to see if Don Jr qualifies.