Continuation The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by eerok

It'll be interesting to see if Don Jr qualifies.

Or Giuliana or Pence. Giuliani was exposed by prolonged contact with his son on Thur and Fri.

And Pence went on an oddly timed vacation to an island in FL. Could be avoiding his disgust with Trump or not wanting to admit he was infected from his staff.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Or Giuliana or Pence. Giuliani was exposed by prolonged contact with his son on Thur and Fri.

And Pence went on an oddly timed vacation to an island in FL. Could be avoiding his disgust with Trump or not wanting to admit he was infected from his staff.

I thought that trip was canceled?

[Captain_Swoop]

Do we really think that Don Jr has covid?
I'm saying rehab.

[varwoche]

Nero fiddled, Trump golfed.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by varwoche

Nero fiddled, Trump golfed.

Nero had the misfortune of a dynastic change after his death and nearly every bit of common wisdom about him is probably slanderous propaganda written by Flavian partisans (and/or historians who want to be fair, but who want their heads remaining attached to the rest of their body more).

He was at his villa outside Rome when the fire started. He opened public spaces for displaced citizens. He authorized every kind of effort that could be attempted. Maybe, being a sentimental sort, when a few, quiet minutes without rushed dispatches arriving presented itself, he plated a lamentful melody on his cithara (like a lyre, nothing remotely like a fiddle).

Trump, though, Trump actually earned his scorn.

Nero was a scapegoat. Trump is a stain on humanity.

[Captain_Swoop]

Trump tweets

Joe Biden was a total disaster in handling the H1N1 Swine Flu, would never have produced a Vaccine in record time (years ahead of schedule), and would do a terrible job of Vaccine delivery - But doesn’t everybody already know that!

Fake News always “forgets” to mention that far fewer people are dying when they get Covid. This is do to both our advanced therapeutics, and the gained knowledge of our great doctors, nurses and front line workers!

The Fake News is not talking about the fact that “Covid” is running wild all over the World, not just in the U.S. I was at the Virtual G-20 meeting early this morning and the biggest subject was Covid. We will be healing fast, especially with our vaccines!

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump tweets

Joe Biden was a total disaster in handling the H1N1 Swine Flu, would never have produced a Vaccine in record time (years ahead of schedule), and would do a terrible job of Vaccine delivery - But doesn’t everybody already know that!

Fake News always “forgets” to mention that far fewer people are dying when they get Covid. This is do to both our advanced therapeutics, and the gained knowledge of our great doctors, nurses and front line workers!

The Fake News is not talking about the fact that “Covid” is running wild all over the World, not just in the U.S. I was at the Virtual G-20 meeting early this morning and the biggest subject was Covid. We will be healing fast, especially with our vaccines!

That was the meeting he bailed on to go golfing.

[Resume]

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
12,450,666
Deaths:
261,790

New Cases:
172,839
New Deaths:
1,460

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Resume

From Worldometer:

Quote:

Quote:
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
12,450,666
Deaths:
261,790

New Cases:
172,839
New Deaths:
1,460

The really stupid thing is, that it need not have been this way.

If Trump had the tiniest amount of commonsense, he could have seized on Covid as a sure-fire ticket to re-election. He could have listened to the medical and scientific advice, and followed that advice as closely as possible. He could have strongly advocated the wearing of masks, and his base would have dutifully followed him (not because they thought masks were a good idea, but because they hang on their Fuhrer's every word). Everyone else would have agreed with the wearing of masks too, but for different reasons - most Americans who are not Trump morons would have followed the medical and scientific advice.

ETA: Ive just seen a fundamental flaw in my thinking. The words "Trump" and "commonsense" should never be used in the same sentence!

ETA2: I've just seen another fundamental flaw. The above would require Trump to do certain things

1. Acknowledge that he doesn't know everying about everything,
2. Shut up and let someone else in the room to the talking,
3. Not be the centre of attention, or have something happening that isn't all about him.

Trump is, of course, utterly incapable of any of these three things, let alone all three... at the same time.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

The really stupid thing is, that it need not have been this way.

If Trump had the tiniest amount of commonsense, he could have seized on Covid as a sure-fire ticket to re-election. He could have listened to the medical and scientific advice, and followed that advice as closely as possible. He could have strongly advocated the wearing of masks, and his base would have dutifully followed him (not because they thought masks were a good idea, but because they hang on their Fuhrer's every word). Everyone else would have agreed with the wearing of masks too, but for different reasons - most Americans who are not Trump morons would have followed the medical and scientific advice.

ETA: Ive just seen a fundamental flaw in my thinking. The words "Trump" and "commonsense" should never be used in the same sentence!

ETA2: I've just seen another fundamental flaw. The above would require Trump to do certain things

1. Acknowledge that he doesn't know everying about everything,
2. Shut up and let someone else in the room to the talking,
3. Not be the centre of attention, or have something happening that isn't all about him.

Trump is, of course, utterly incapable of any of these three things, let alone all three... at the same time.

I don't think he was competent enough to deal with the crisis. His only option, pronounce it gone, etc you all know the rest.

[newyorkguy]

trump has tweeted about the amazing drop in Covid-19 deaths that the media mostly ignores. Ironically, numerous media outlets have tried to question the trump administration to get further details but the inquiries are always ignored. Britain's Independent news group ran a news story about the claim two days ago.

Quote:

In a series of early-morning tweets sent after a John Hopkins University tally showed more than a quarter of a million fatalities, the outgoing president claimed: “THE COVID DRUGS NOW AVAILABLE TO MAKE PROPLE [sic] BETTER ARE AMAZING, BUT SELDOM TALKED ABOUT BY THE MEDIA! Mortality rate is 85% down!” UK-Independent news article

In July the White House released a chart that showed roughly an 85% drop in the fatality rate since it peaked on March 23rd. The trouble with that is, on March 23rd the incidence of infection was at a much lower level. On March 23rd the US recorded 10,432 new cases and 121 deaths. Yesterday the US recorded 198,585 new cases and 1,952 deaths. The all-time high for deaths in the US was the 2,752 fatalities on April 15th. Yesterday the number of people who passed away was 30% lower at 1,952.

Most medical sources have said repeatedly the limited amount of testing being done early on undoubtedly skewed the figures. The White House chart provided in late July (below left) shows how quickly the fatality rate fell. But there were no new treatments ready in April. So what is trump talking about? Numerous news outlets have asked but trump doesn't want to talk about it.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

trump has tweeted about the amazing drop in Covid-19 deaths that the media mostly ignores. Ironically, numerous media outlets have tried to question the trump administration to get further details but the inquiries are always ignored. Britain's Independent news group ran a news story about the claim two days ago.


In July the White House released a chart that showed roughly an 85% drop in the fatality rate since it peaked on March 23rd. The trouble with that is, on March 23rd the incidence of infection was at a much lower level. On March 23rd the US recorded 10,432 new cases and 121 deaths. Yesterday the US recorded 198,585 new cases and 1,952 deaths. The all-time high for deaths in the US was the 2,752 fatalities on April 15th. Yesterday the number of people who passed away was 30% lower at 1,952.

Most medical sources have said repeatedly the limited amount of testing being done early on undoubtedly skewed the figures. The White House chart provided in late July (below left) shows how quickly the fatality rate fell. But there were no new treatments ready in April. So what is trump talking about? Numerous news outlets have asked but trump doesn't want to talk about it.

No, the mortality numbers might have been down on March 23, but the mortality rate is increasing

Trump is trying on some misdirection and deceptive statistics here. He is giving the Case Fatality Rate (the deaths per case) which is irrelevant. What is required is the Infection Fatality Rate (IFR), number of deaths from a disease divided by the total number of cases. If 10 people die of the disease, and 500 actually have it, then the IFR is 10 / 500 x 100 = 2%


Mar 23 in the US 471 deaths / 35206 infections x 100 = 1.3%
Nov 21 in the US 256k deaths / 12.2m infections x 100 = 2.1%

The infection mortality rate has actually increased, not decreased

You can check my figures here....

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

The 1.3% on March 23 was likely to be statistically unreliable given the small number of cases, but for reference, here are the world figures for today, Nov 22: 1.36m deaths / 57.3m infections = 2.37%

[Stacyhs]

Georgia GOP Senate candidate Kelly Loeffler has tested positive for Covid 19.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Georgia GOP Senate candidate Kelly Loeffler has tested positive for Covid 19.

And then "Inconclusive" shortly after? Either way, here's the campaign's statement -

Quote:

ATLANTA – Today, Loeffler campaign spokesperson Stephen Lawson issued the following statement: “Senator Loeffler took two COVID tests on Friday morning. Her rapid test results were negative and she was cleared to attend Friday’s events. She was informed later in the evening after public events on Friday that her PCR test came back positive, but she was retested Saturday morning after conferring with medical officials and those results came back inconclusive on Saturday evening. Senator Loeffler followed CDC guidelines by notifying those with whom she had sustained direct contact while she awaits further test results. She has no symptoms and she will continue to follow CDC guidelines by quarantining until retesting is conclusive and an update will be provided at that time.”

[Stacyhs]

That certainly instills confidence in those tests, doesn't it?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Georgia GOP Senate candidate Kelly Loeffler has tested positive for Covid 19.

That's what she gets for hanging out with all those GOP Senators, probably not wearing masks.

I wonder how many more are going to turn up?

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That's what she gets for hanging out with all those GOP Senators, probably not wearing masks.

I wonder how many more are going to turn up?

I suspect quite a few more after Thanksgiving.

[Captain_Swoop]

Trump Tweets

They never thought a Vaccine could be done so soon but don’t worry, they will try to give the credit to Biden!

[Armitage72]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

They never thought a Vaccine could be done so soon but don’t worry, they will try to give the credit to Biden!

As opposed to the credit being given to the scientists developing the vaccine, something he does every day.

[Aridas]

*sigh*

El Paso inmates help move bodies into morgues as Covid deaths soar

And not just a few. To poke at a couple snippets -

Quote:

The El Paso county public health department has confirmed more than 800 deaths since March. Another 400 are under investigation. El Paso has called in more mobile morgues in recent days, up from six to 10.

Authorities in El Paso fear a dire situation could get much worse. Facilities are overwhelmed: 1,100 people are hospitalized with Covid-19.

<snip>

Samaniego recently issued a stay-at-home order. It was quickly challenged by the mayor, Dee Margo, who appealed to the Texas attorney general, Ken Paxton. The attorney general ruled the shutdown illegal, only for it to be confirmed in state court, then overturned again on appeal. El Pasoans were left confused.

“There were businesses that shut down while others remained open,” said Debbie Mendez, an El Paso mother. “If there is no stability with city officials, the citizens of El Paso will basically do whatever they want and Covid cases will continue to rise.”

<snip>

The pandemic has halted funerals with military honors.

And at funeral homes across El Paso, social distancing and capacity limits apply. But as the mobile morgues fill up, some families are experiencing a four-week delay before they can even bury their loved ones.

[newyorkguy]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

...Trump is trying on some misdirection and deceptive statistics here. He is giving the Case Fatality Rate (the deaths per case) which is irrelevant. What is required is the Infection Fatality Rate (IFR), number of deaths from a disease divided by the total number of cases...

Thanks that helps make sense of it. It also explains why trump and his staff do not respond to media queries and why trump has begun to leave his press conferences before any questions can be asked. It's all a con.

How could trump answer a question like this:

Quote:

"Mr. president, your 85% figure is based on deaths per case. Medical sources say the infection fatality rate is a better yardstick and that hasn't declined, it's almost doubled. Can you respond to that, sir?"

trump would not only be hard pressed to spin that, worse, trump probably wouldn't even know what they were talking about.

[newyorkguy]

South Dakota is the state where an ER nurse says patients dying with Covid-19 react angrily to their diagnosis and insist it's a hoax. Then they die. I'll go my ex-boss one better: You don't want to make stuff like this up.

Quote:

COVID-19 is out of control in South Dakota. Over the past week, the state has been averaging nearly 1,500 new cases a day. Hospitalizations have increased five-fold since early September, and the state’s per capita death rate from the virus is one of the highest in the world. Yet South Dakota’s governor, Kristi Noem, stubbornly refuses to change her hands-off approach to the coronavirus pandemic.

In an ordinary world, such indifference to mass death would be a political disaster. Instead, Noem remains not only broadly popular, but her actions are also helping her politically. Her brazen know-nothingness is a feature in the modern GOP, not a bug. Noem is the logical next step in the Trumpist takeover of the GOP: indifferent to science and facts, hostile to government mandates, including those that save lives, and a child-like refusal to change course. For Republicans, she has it all. from the Boston Globe

From Worldometer, states with the most cases per one million population as of yesterday.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Aridas

*sigh*

El Paso inmates help move bodies into morgues as Covid deaths soar

And not just a few. To poke at a couple snippets -

It's Beto O'Rourke's fault, he's from there.

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

South Dakota is the state where an ER nurse says patients dying with Covid-19 react angrily to their diagnosis and insist it's a hoax. Then they die. I'll go my ex-boss one better: You don't want to make stuff like this up.



From Worldometer, states with the most cases per one million population as of yesterday.

It's just the Blue States!

I keep wondering how many death threats that nurse has had.

[Captain_Swoop]

Trump Tweets

Report: Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, Anti-Trump Hero, Paid for Flawed Coronavirus Tests from South Korea https://breitbart.com/health/2020/11...m-south-korea/ via
@BreitbartNews.

This RINO will never make the grade. Hogan is just as bad as the flawed tests he paid big money for!

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

Report: Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, Anti-Trump Hero, Paid for Flawed Coronavirus Tests from South Korea https://breitbart.com/health/2020/11...m-south-korea/ via
@BreitbartNews.

This RINO will never make the grade. Hogan is just as bad as the flawed tests he paid big money for!

This happened several months ago and was the result of Governors desperately trying to get medical supplies as Trump dropped the ball by seizing shipments and making it near impossible for states to get the th8ngsnthey needed to fight the virus.

[newyorkguy]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

...I keep wondering how many death threats that nurse has had.

A few. From a website called Medpage Today:

Quote:

"Even after positive results come back, some people just don't believe it," she added. "It's just a movie where the credits never roll. You just do it all over again." Doering has since suffered backlash for expressing her sentiments -- including death threats, she tweeted.

Researchers at the University of Arizona's College of Nursing have also been hearing from exasperated healthcare workers about this issue. Jessica Rainbow, PhD, RN, is monitoring a voicemail box she set up to capture their stories. Some nurses told Littzen that dealing with COVID-19 deniers compounds systemic problems they cannot tackle. "Anything the nurse is saying, patients aren't believing that. They're believing what they hear on the news," Littzen said. "No matter what [nurses] do." Medpage Today link

[Blue Mountain]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

South Dakota is the state where an ER nurse says patients dying with Covid-19 react angrily to their diagnosis and insist it's a hoax. Then they die. I'll go my ex-boss one better: You don't want to make stuff like this up.

Quote:

COVID-19 is out of control in South Dakota. Over the past week, the state has been averaging nearly 1,500 new cases a day. Hospitalizations have increased five-fold since early September, and the state’s per capita death rate from the virus is one of the highest in the world. Yet South Dakota’s governor, Kristi Noem, stubbornly refuses to change her hands-off approach to the coronavirus pandemic.

In an ordinary world, such indifference to mass death would be a political disaster. Instead, Noem remains not only broadly popular, but her actions are also helping her politically. Her brazen know-nothingness is a feature in the modern GOP, not a bug. Noem is the logical next step in the Trumpist takeover of the GOP: indifferent to science and facts, hostile to government mandates, including those that save lives, and a child-like refusal to change course. For Republicans, she has it all. from the Boston Globe

From Worldometer, states with the most cases per one million population as of yesterday.

What a contrast to where I live. The provincial Conservative Party currently forms the government, and despite a major misstep back in September where they opened up too fast after an enviably low number of cases over the summer, has not been afraid to lock things down again. We're now in a hard lockdown: the government has gone so far as to forbid people from having guests in their homes, with the exception that a person living alone can have one visitor. And this with a death rate 1/5 that of South Dakota (157/million vs S.D.'s 878/million) and a case rate 1/8 of S.D. (9662/million vs S.D.'s 81,629.)

[newyorkguy]

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

What a contrast to where I live. The provincial Conservative Party currently forms the government, and despite a major misstep back in September where they opened up too fast after an enviably low number of cases over the summer, has not been afraid to lock things down again. We're now in a hard lockdown: the government has gone so far as to forbid people from having guests in their homes, with the exception that a person living alone can have one visitor. And this with a death rate 1/5 that of South Dakota (157/million vs S.D.'s 878/million) and a case rate 1/8 of S.D. (9662/million vs S.D.'s 81,629.)

Quite a contrast as in South Dakota even requiring face masks is unthinkable.

Quote:

This week [governor Kristi Noem's] press spokesperson doubled down, pledged Noem’s refusal to abide by President-elect Joe Biden’s call for a national mask mandate, arguing that Noem “has provided her citizens with the full scope of the science and trusted them to make the best decisions for themselves and their loved ones.” Boston Globe article

What jumps out at me is, governor Noem believing people should be left to make their own decisions about an unknown and deadly infectious disease. How is the average person competent to make those decisions? It seems to me what Noem is really saying is: You're on your own folks. Yet many (most) of her supporters praise her for that.

Of course, the political reality motivating Noem probably is, people like trump, hannity and carlson have politicized the wearing of face masks and Noem is probably looking past the pandemic to her future political prospects. No way is she going to allow herself to be labeled pro-mask.

It really stinks.

[Skeptic Ginger]

From the medicine thread:

Originally Posted by Planigale

No, because allocating scarce resources according to need is Socialism;

You have a poor understanding of socialism and an even poorer understanding of US law.

You're in the UK right? Does a grocery store storeowner have an obligation to feed a poor person who walks in and asks for food?

Both of our countries have a mix of capitalism and socialism.

US taxpayers paid for those doses. Trump does not own them. The guidelines were set up in a contract with Lilly as to how the doses would be allocated. Carson was apparently in Maryland at Walter Reed Hospital. Maryland public health would be responsible for distributing the doses there.

Walter Reed is a military hospital making it under federal jurisdiction rather than state. I'm not sure how federal hospitals were allocated doses (VA and military hospitals). I am sure they were not allocated by the POTUS.


You seem to be under the impression that graft is legal in this country. It is not.

That's insulting frankly.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

From the medicine thread:


You have a poor understanding of socialism and an even poorer understanding of US law.

You're in the UK right? Does a grocery store storeowner have an obligation to feed a poor person who walks in and asks for food?

Both of our countries have a mix of capitalism and socialism.

US taxpayers paid for those doses. Trump does not own them. The guidelines were set up in a contract with Lilly as to how the doses would be allocated. Carson was apparently in Maryland at Walter Reed Hospital. Maryland public health would be responsible for distributing the doses there.

Walter Reed is a military hospital making it under federal jurisdiction rather than state. I'm not sure how federal hospitals were allocated doses (VA and military hospitals). I am sure they were not allocated by the POTUS.


You seem to be under the impression that graft is legal in this country. It is not.

That's insulting frankly.

And the relevant part of my reply moved from that thread -



That paragraph in Planigale's comment looked quite sarcastic and insincere, to me.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Aridas

And the relevant part of my reply moved from that thread -

That paragraph in Planigale's comment looked quite sarcastic and insincere, to me.

I can't read minds but the post read to me as sarcastic and sincere.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

A few. From a website called Medpage Today:

I wonder if they would accept a Dolly Parton vaccine?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

Thanks that helps make sense of it. It also explains why trump and his staff do not respond to media queries and why trump has begun to leave his press conferences before any questions can be asked. It's all a con.

How could trump answer a question like this:



trump would not only be hard pressed to spin that, worse, trump probably wouldn't even know what they were talking about.

He won't answer questions because they are going to ask him why he hasn't accepted his loss. It might cause a meltdown if he had to confront that.

As for the death stats, he just picks whichever numbers look better to him.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I can't read minds but the post read to me as sarcastic and sincere.

I'm with Aridas on this. I think you've misinterpreted Planigale's post.

[Resume]

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
12,588,661
Deaths:
262,696

New Cases:
136,627
New Deaths:
866

[newyorkguy]

We've seen over a half-million new cases in just three days. We passed 11 million cases on November 13th and 12 million on November 19th. Incredibly, we should go over 13 million cases on Wednesday November 25th. The day before Thanksgiving.

Though travel is down, millions of people are still planning on flying to Thanksgiving destinations. This may mean another big surge in mid-December though it's hard to believe the numbers could get significantly higher. Except that they can.

Quote:

The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued guidance on Thursday urging Americans not to travel for Thanksgiving. But millions of people are still planning to travel over the holiday week. On Friday, the number of travelers screened at US airport security checkpoints topped 1 million for only the second time since March, according to Transportation Security Administration figures. That's still just 40% of the volume screened on the Friday before Thanksgiving a year ago. CNN report

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I'm with Aridas on this. I think you've misinterpreted Planigale's post.

As all sarcasm?

The comment was about our capitalist health care. Hard to get sarcasm out of that.

I could be wrong, maybe someone can explain how that was pure sarcasm. I'll keep an open mind.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

As all sarcasm?

The comment was about our capitalist health care. Hard to get sarcasm out of that.

I could be wrong, maybe someone can explain how that was pure sarcasm. I'll keep an open mind.

I think "a heavy satirical tone" was present throughout the first paragraph. The closing section even had a transitional pivot back to a more sincere tone.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

As all sarcasm?

The comment was about our capitalist health care. Hard to get sarcasm out of that.

I could be wrong, maybe someone can explain how that was pure sarcasm. I'll keep an open mind.

To be clear, the part that you actually quoted, along with the rest of the first paragraph, was a pretty obvious jab at dishonest Republican/Libertarian propaganda, in my opinion, with not much deeper likely to actually be intended on the subject there.

[Planigale]

Thank you,
I think the posts below are correct.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I think "a heavy satirical tone" was present throughout the first paragraph. The closing section even had a transitional pivot back to a more sincere tone.

Originally Posted by Aridas

To be clear, the part that you actually quoted, along with the rest of the first paragraph, was a pretty obvious jab at dishonest Republican/Libertarian propaganda, in my opinion, with not much deeper likely to actually be intended on the subject there.

Satirical with relevance to certain important people who boast about minimising tax but get priority in access to scarce resources. That intellectually saying 'it is too difficult to prioritise so just distribute randomly' seems weak. Make a decision, triage. More satire, perhaps some irony, not really sarcasm.