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Old 3rd October 2011, 05:44 AM   #41
Scott Sommers
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Originally Posted by TsuDhoNimh View Post
It's "Crank Magnetism" ... Consistency be damned, they just want to see science with egg on its face so they can prove that they are being persecuted.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank_magnetism
http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/20..._the_crank.php
http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/20...agnetism_1.php
I'm way too serious about this to play along with the joke. There are clusters of nuttiness. It has been empirically demonstrated that fundamentalist Christians are less likely to believe in astrology, Wicca and life after death. Of course you say. But that's exactly my point. You hardly ever find UFO nuts or HIV conspiracy people in 9/11 Truth. Truthers cluster with Holocaust denial because they all hate da jooz. But I think it's more than that. I have never seen such a white boy group of people as Truthers. In 2009, 75% of the people who showed up at GZ for the big demo were white boys and almost all the girls there were romantically connected. I think the proportion was higher this year. Craig Fitzgerald who wasman #1 at the GZ demo this year is trying to form neo-skinhead groups on the East Coast.

I think deep down inside, those 9/11 white boys...really....really...they think the white folks are better.
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Old 3rd October 2011, 06:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
You hardly ever find UFO nuts or HIV conspiracy people in 9/11 Truth.
I disagree, I've noticed a big overlap in between the various CTs. I used to be a regular on 911OZ and it was the same names cropping up on the most of the threads.

The common theme was the all powerful secret "they" that controlled the sheeple. I think some focus more on one aspect than another but CTs are all just symptoms of the same disease. (I wonder if there could be a vaccination..........)
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Old 3rd October 2011, 06:28 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by sheeplesnshills View Post
I disagree, I've noticed a big overlap in between the various CTs. I used to be a regular on 911OZ and it was the same names cropping up on the most of the threads.

The common theme was the all powerful secret "they" that controlled the sheeple. I think some focus more on one aspect than another but CTs are all just symptoms of the same disease. (I wonder if there could be a vaccination..........)
You'll find some Truthers who are HIV deniers and all Truthers will agree with the logic of the Big Pharma conspiracy. But to actively state you are an HIV denier and a 9/11 Truther is unusual. I have about 2000 Facebook friends who are also members of 9/11 Truth/WAC Facebook groups. Only about 5% are also members of HIV denier groups like House of Numbers. Many are members of pro-hemp groups, anti-vaccine groups and Orgone energy groups. But virtually none are open supporters of HIV conspiracy and when I've tried to engage them in conversations about this, they just loose interest really quickly.
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Old 3rd October 2011, 06:38 AM   #44
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And for those of who know him, Louie Bee from Crotch Shot is one of those Truthers whose also on the House of Numbers list. Other than that, most of them are not Truthers anyone would have heard of and only a few are names I recognize from 9/11 Truth posts. Most of them would be peripheral to the Truth Movement in the way we describe it here.
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Old 3rd October 2011, 06:38 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by sheeplesnshills View Post
I disagree, I've noticed a big overlap in between the various CTs. I used to be a regular on 911OZ and it was the same names cropping up on the most of the threads.

The common theme was the all powerful secret "they" that controlled the sheeple. I think some focus more on one aspect than another but CTs are all just symptoms of the same disease. (I wonder if there could be a vaccination..........)
Personally I never had a conspiracy theory in my life before 9/11. I was aware of the Moon Landing thing and the Kennedy Conspiracy and the Loch Ness Monster and so on but none of them ever rose to the level of a serious interest for me.

But 9/11 is completely different. This is no conspiracy theory. This is a real murder investigation and lots more besides that should concern everybody on the planet.
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Old 3rd October 2011, 06:55 AM   #46
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bill smith
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Old 3rd October 2011, 07:40 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Personally I never had a conspiracy theory in my life before 9/11. I was aware of the Moon Landing thing and the Kennedy Conspiracy and the Loch Ness Monster and so on but none of them ever rose to the level of a serious interest for me.

But 9/11 is completely different. This is no conspiracy theory. This is a real murder investigation and lots more besides that should concern everybody on the planet.
Why should everyone on earth be concerned just because you fell for some delusional cult crap?
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Old 4th October 2011, 07:18 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
bill smith
This message is hidden because bill smith is on your ignore list.
Bill who?

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Old 4th October 2011, 07:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
Bill who?
Exactly.
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Old 4th October 2011, 07:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
Strange but true, Ingrid Rimland was, for a time, a collaborator with Simon Wiesenthal.



"cause" I think is too strong a word, it is too reductionist and removes the element of Jewish agency and moral responsibility. Lets say a tendency or a proclivity that needs to be fought with cognitive therapy.
I just threw up a little bit in my mouth reading this bulldust.
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Old 4th October 2011, 07:56 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by OCaptain View Post
I just threw up a little bit in my mouth reading this bulldust.
There is an ignore feature. Click on the user name in a post and choose "add to your ignore list." Why otherwise intelligent people continuously feed these trolls is beyond me.
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Old 6th October 2011, 02:42 AM   #52
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It's "Crank Magnetism" ... Consistency be damned, they just want to see science with egg on its face so they can prove that they are being persecuted.
Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
I'm way too serious about this to play along with the joke. There are clusters of nuttiness.
Not a joke ... and they cluster in overlapping groups. Look at what causes them anxiety, somewhere they need certainty or self-importance in their lives, and you'll notice that it's blamed on some super-powerful entity.

If the anti-vaccine mommies from mothering.com's forums could figure out a way to blame manufacturers, the CDC or vaccines for the WTC, they probably would. That's too far a stretch even for them but they blame everything that has happened to anyone who may have been close enough to breathe in a particle of dust on an uncaring government. Because, you know, it has "chemicals" in it.

They also have very little grasp of statistics, medicine, or economics so they are easy to exploit for profit or power.

Quote:
I have never seen such a white boy group of people as Truthers. In 2009, 75% of the people who showed up at GZ for the big demo were white boys and almost all the girls there were romantically connected. I think the proportion was higher this year. Craig Fitzgerald who was man #1 at the GZ demo this year is trying to form neo-skinhead groups on the East Coast.

I think deep down inside, those 9/11 white boys...really....really...they think the white folks are better.
I think some of them have focused a free-floating fear or dissatisfaction with their life, anxiety and stress onto a target of convenience ... one that gets them some group approval and solidarity. The classic targets are the gummint, the devil, or some out-group that is conveniently nearby and large enough to be threatening (blacks, Jews, illegal immigrants, Muslims).
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Old 6th October 2011, 04:19 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by TsuDhoNimh View Post
Not a joke ... and they cluster in overlapping groups. Look at what causes them anxiety, somewhere they need certainty or self-importance in their lives, and you'll notice that it's blamed on some super-powerful entity.

If the anti-vaccine mommies from mothering.com's forums could figure out a way to blame manufacturers, the CDC or vaccines for the WTC, they probably would. That's too far a stretch even for them but they blame everything that has happened to anyone who may have been close enough to breathe in a particle of dust on an uncaring government. Because, you know, it has "chemicals" in it.

They also have very little grasp of statistics, medicine, or economics so they are easy to exploit for profit or power.


I think some of them have focused a free-floating fear or dissatisfaction with their life, anxiety and stress onto a target of convenience ... one that gets them some group approval and solidarity. The classic targets are the gummint, the devil, or some out-group that is conveniently nearby and large enough to be threatening (blacks, Jews, illegal immigrants, Muslims).
Let's paraphrase what you wrote,
Quote:
I read some stuff on another website and I think you're wrong.
What am I to make of this? When I read things like this, I think of the kind of 'facts' that Truthers pull out. Am I supposed to be convinced by anything here? Could anything here possibly convince someone?

There's a similar thread over on the Conspiracy Forum and someone made a similar statement. This was my response then,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robrob
Well certainly, I said it was "in my experience" and thus totally anecdotal. However, I can honestly say of the scores of truthers I have had the misfortune to encounter on the web, I can't recall a single one who did not advocate multiple non-overlapping CT. E.G. a birther/deather/truther (all CT of a similar vein) who also thought O.J. was a victim of a conspiracy and that the Fukishima earthquake/tsunami was actually a cover-up for Mossad's nuclear attack on the plant in revenge for japan selling nuclear power plants to Iran.
Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
I have no doubt you have found many strange people posting on the Internet. Let's try and make a serious count of all this. Let's try and count this in a way that a scientific journal would publish. How many people are you really talking about? "Scores"? A few dozen, then. Aren't there people with these ideas that don't post on the Internet? Angus Reid says 15% of Americans will endorse a 9/11 conspiracy item on their survey. Are they different from your Net friends? Maybe.

And if we really sat down and carefully counted your friends, as well as these other people you haven't met, would their conspiracy beliefs appear as random as this? I have sat down and counted these kinds of folks. They weren't nearly as random or confused as this. I'm not saying your friends aren't that messed up. But my guess is that a careful count of who believes what will be a little different than your gut feeling.

If you look between the lines on Walter's posts, he's not talking about some random crazy kind of thing. These guys are lined up along ideological lines that have a reasoning behind them. And that's what I'm saying, as well.

The JREF has been a great place for me. But one of the issues I have with the general JREF way of interpreting things is that conspiracy is not some sort of cognitive problem that leads to a willingness to accept any kind of weirdness. That may be for the really crazy crowd that posts on the kind of forums that the members here monitor. Once you start talking to people outside of that, conspiracy becomes a very different kind of thing. And it's not just this whacked out retarded bunch of people grabbing on to everything they can.
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Old 6th October 2011, 04:51 AM   #54
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Most of the HIV deniers are claiming that it is a plot to exterminate everybody in Africa so that whites cvan colonize it without the hassle of having to fight off millions of uncooperative natives. They tend to stay away from anybody who smells the least bit like Nazi crap.
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Old 6th October 2011, 05:07 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Most of the HIV deniers are claiming that it is a plot to exterminate everybody in Africa so that whites cvan colonize it without the hassle of having to fight off millions of uncooperative natives. They tend to stay away from anybody who smells the least bit like Nazi crap.
This is a great example of what I mean. The gay men and Black Americans who ascribe to these HIV conspiracy theories aren't going to be too happy about the neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers. Although we do have at least one HIV/Holocaust denier on the JREF, and he does gobble any kind of conspiracy hogwash you put in front of him. Especially among the activists of these guys, they're motivated by ideology. You can find all sorts of versions of this, especially here on JREF, but ordinary people don't just start believing this hogwash without something else that makes it seem reasonable.
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Old 6th October 2011, 12:43 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Personally I never had a conspiracy theory in my life before 9/11. I was aware of the Moon Landing thing and the Kennedy Conspiracy and the Loch Ness Monster and so on but none of them ever rose to the level of a serious interest for me.
So? you were sane, now you are not. One day you will move on from being twoofy and get obsessed with another CT

Quote:
But 9/11 is completely different. This is no conspiracy theory.
Yep, and no doubt the vaccine nuts and the holocaust deniers say the same........

Quote:
This is a real murder investigation
No its not. Not even close.

Quote:
and lots more besides that should concern everybody on the planet.
Mental illness is a valid concern for us all.
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Old 27th August 2017, 12:22 AM   #57
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Yes, I know I haven't posted in years. Does it matter? I just wanted to up-date the Tony Hall situation.

Tony has since been fired from his job at the University of Lethbridge.
University of Lethbridge goes to human rights commission over prof accused of anti-Semitism

Tony set up a Facebook page pleading for help

To make a long story relatively short,
Tony has now teamed up with leading (is such a term appropriate) Canadian holocaust deniers to assist with spreading their propaganda at the street level.

I just want to point out that all roads through 9/11 Truth end up in Holocaust denial. It just takes some people longer than others. We can only imagine that Dick Gage is there already, but he doesn't want anybody to know.
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Old 27th August 2017, 03:06 AM   #58
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Are you the Scott Sommers from WBAI?

++++

What confounds me as I got to look at and meet and know some truthers.... is how do intelligent, educated people who seemingly posses critical thinking skills fall down the rabbet hole of conspiracy stuff like 9/11 truth?

It seems to me that their ticket in is the basic truth that the media (MSM), the government officials even the history books are full of incorrect information. These could be deliberate lies with the intent to conceal the actual facts, or a best case supporting some agenda, hidden or stated... as making the (false) case to the American people to go to war in the ME, or wherever... Granada even.

With the presumption that government and MSM constantly lie... many people will default to alternate sources with alternate views on the topic. The alternate cases DO have internal consistency and logic and appear sound. And of course 99.999% of us cannot fact check so we are left to accept the credentials and the pronouncements of other "experts". Of course these experts ALWAYS make the case that they have the mainstream established credentials and experience. Gage, Hulsey, Jones, Harrit, Szamboti and the list goes on and on. They expect gravitas and these "leaders" become the core of any alt movement such as 911 truth or holocaust denial, contrails, UFOs, scientology etc. And let's not forget that all religions are myth, not fact based. So it's easy to see how almost anyone can fall into the rabbit hole where critical thinking is suspended.

You cannot debate, discuss or teach someone who has gone down this path. For whatever reason they simply compartmentalize their thinking and the absence of critical thinking is no apparent to these people.

+++

In my own interest in understanding the collapses of the twin towers in more detail and accuracy than what the original mainstream ideas were I wandered into the truth movement and got to know some of these "leaders". One, who I will not name, I thought highly of and he respected my thinking and experience as an architect. We remained in touch after I left the 911 truth movement and he would occasionally ask my reaction to something such as the plane crash.

He wrote things to me like:

"This may interest you, I don't know. I myself have never fully understood the case for or against the official story and thus have never expressed an opinion as to ultimate cause. But I do know that if a building could collapse so quickly and completely with that level of internal fire, something is wrong and, at least, architects and engineers need to know how to make it impossible in the future."

Notice how he admits to never fulling understanding something... them asserts the fact that it collapsed TOO QUICKLY... based on a level of internal fire he couldn't possibly know with certainty... and concludes that collapses like that should be impossible in the future.

Look at the lack of critical thinking in that paragraph. And this is from a PhD professor!

Follow the leader down the rabbit hole...
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Old 27th August 2017, 04:32 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Are you the Scott Sommers from WBAI
No. I am not. I've talked with you before, many years ago. Today is the first day I have posted in 3 or 4 years.
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Old 27th August 2017, 04:48 AM   #60
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OK Scott.... I recall but memory of our conversation has faded. I decided to use my brain's hard drive space for things aside from truther nonsense. The movement has run out of steam and it's mostly an online escape for "amusement". And it continues to be amusing!
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Old 27th August 2017, 05:27 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
OK Scott.... I recall but memory of our conversation has faded. I decided to use my brain's hard drive space for things aside from truther nonsense. The movement has run out of steam and it's mostly an online escape for "amusement". And it continues to be amusing!
That's my impression as well. The forum here has pretty much died and looks more like skeptical members talking to each other. The Truther arguments haven't changed in the years I've been gone and some threads look like attempts to deal with long-time Truthers with Aristotelian logic.

On the other hand, I have a long-time friend who became a Truther. I suspect he went to see the Travelling Gage Show. He has defriended me from Facebook. But that's the only real life experience I've had with a Truther since I joined the Forum.

Watching 9/11 Truth descend into Holocaust denial is endlessly amusing for me. It is something I've watched from afar for years now. Watching its final culmination gives me peace that the world works pretty much the way I think it does.
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Old 27th August 2017, 03:27 PM   #62
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Welcome back, Scott!


Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
I just wanted to up-date the Tony Hall situation.
His plight has come up here a few months ago already. I'll go looking after this post.

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
Tony has since been fired from his job at the University of Lethbridge.
University of Lethbridge goes to human rights commission over prof accused of anti-Semitism
The linked article says "suspended" and "salary reinstated" - that's a bit different from "fired".

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
Tony set up a Facebook page pleading for help
How can you tell that Tony set this up?
69 "Likes" and no content since January are underwhelming and seem to indicate this is not Tony himself running the page, but some fail-prone fan.

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
To make a long story relatively short,
Tony has now teamed up with leading (is such a term appropriate) Canadian holocaust deniers to assist with spreading their propaganda at the street level.
Again, we (I) discussed Hall recently. I don't think I spotted anything that said "HD!!" outright, but he keeps close company with HDers and sure knows how to toe around that edge.

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
I just want to point out that all roads through 9/11 Truth end up in Holocaust denial. It just takes some people longer than others. We can only imagine that Dick Gage is there already, but he doesn't want anybody to know.
The two are certainly correlated, with causation probably being that a third variable - conspiracist (divergent, incoherent, fallacious) thinking - causes both HDism and 911Truthiness.

I would not think that Gage takes much of an interest in "the Jewish question", but he must run into antisemites and HDers all the time, to a point where it becomse quite normal. Typical bubble environment.
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Old 27th August 2017, 03:56 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
His plight has come up here a few months ago already. I'll go looking after this post....
One instance was here.
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Old 27th August 2017, 05:23 PM   #64
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Thanks for straightening me out. I'm probably a little over zealous about Tony as we don't like each other personally.

Quote:
Again, we (I) discussed Hall recently. I don't think I spotted anything that said "HD!!" outright, but he keeps close company with HDers and sure knows how to toe around that edge.
In this link, Tony is reportedly working with,

Quote:
Monika Schaefer, a local Holocaust denier, putting up the posters with another man around midnight on April 5 outside of Tim Hortons.
The report goes on to say that,
Quote:
CCTV footage provided to the Fitzhugh from a different location in town clearly showed Anthony Hall, a professor with the University of Lethbridge, putting up identical posters.
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