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Old 6th October 2019, 11:46 AM   #321
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
What makes you think I haven't read it? Is this another assumption based on ignorance and prejudice, or do you have some basis for this claim?

Once you have done some basic research, we can discuss it. At the moment, given your position of total ignorance, it seems at bit of a waste of time.
I am certain you have read the book and that it forms the foundation of your entire ideology. I was asking if you had read my links, since you asked for them. But if you don't want to read rthem, that's fine with me. The book, from the devastating crits it has received, seems worthless, unless you can persuade me otherwise. It is personal exchanges that form the subject of these discussions, not people telling one another to obtain and read massive propaganda tomes. Tell me why you like it, and I will read your post on the topic.
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Old 6th October 2019, 10:53 PM   #322
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Here's Chomsky saying it here
a guy named Norman Finkelstein, started reading through the book. He was interested in the history of Zionism, ... and he started checking the references—and it turned out that the whole thing was a hoax, ..it was completely faked: probably it had been put together by some intelligence agency or something like that ...
Every major journal, the Times Literary Supplement, the London Review, the Observer, everybody had a review saying, this doesn’t even reach the level of nonsense, of idiocy. ... about the kindest word anybody said about the book was “ludicrous,” or “preposterous.”
Noam Chomsky is a world renowned linguist. He should stick to what he's good at. Pointing a finger and criticizing something for being bad requires an IQ of about 60, anything more and it'll be just a more elequent version of "nyah, nyah, you're bad".

That's basically what Chomsky has been famous for these past 50 years. He promoted an elequent, sophisticated version of what any retard can do.

I wouldn't bring him up in a serious discussion about problems that require solutuions if I were you.

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Old 7th October 2019, 01:20 AM   #323
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Here's Chomsky saying it here
a guy named Norman Finkelstein, started reading through the book. He was interested in the history of Zionism, ... and he started checking the references—and it turned out that the whole thing was a hoax, ..it was completely faked: probably it had been put together by some intelligence agency or something like that ...
Every major journal, the Times Literary Supplement, the London Review, the Observer, everybody had a review saying, this doesn’t even reach the level of nonsense, of idiocy. ... about the kindest word anybody said about the book was “ludicrous,” or “preposterous.”
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is from my second link.
Noam Chomsky has publicly declared his skepticism that Joan Peters even wrote the book, speculating that it might have been authored by some intelligence agency. That may be true, but I would have guessed that any “intelligence” agency would have written a better book.
Truly world-class research, that.

"Noam Chomsky says it might be so" is the sum total of your "research".

Noam Chomsky, by the way, is an idiot who has been wrong about lots of things. Simply accepting his word, without any supporting evidence, is a mistake.

Did your research go so far as to find any corroborating evidence, or did you just take his word for it?
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Old 7th October 2019, 01:30 AM   #324
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I am certain you have read the book and that it forms the foundation of your entire ideology. I was asking if you had read my links, since you asked for them. But if you don't want to read rthem, that's fine with me.
I am unsure whether you are being deliberately dishonest here, or are simply confused.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and will refresh your memory to clear up this confusion.

I asked you to provide links to the sources of your quotes:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post

CraigB, it would be enormously helpful if you could provide a link to the source of your quotes.
You posted a list of extra links, to new sources, from which you did not quote.


Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Cosmic Yak, would be enormously helpful if you could provide a link to the source of your quotes.
craig B provides links.
Cosmic Yak blah blah blah.

That's not very nice. Your book is dismissed in the links as a fraud, rejected even by Israeli apologists. So read it yourself. If you think it is useful, tell me why. My researches show me it's probably a scam composed by intelligence services for tendentious purposes. Have you read my linked articles, which you asked me for after all?
Read my post again: I did not ask you for extra linked articles. I asked you for links to the sources of your quotes.
Here are a number of your posts, containing quotes.
Feel free to highlight the links to the sources of these quotes that you placed in your posts.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is from the Guardian
"Adding that the legislation would complicate a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, the EU joined Israeli Arab political leaders, Israeli opposition politicians and liberal Jewish groups in the US in flagging up concern, with some saying the law amounted to “apartheid”.

The legislation stipulates that “Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it”.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is from the wiki article on the law, which I recommend to you
"According to the proposal, Israel would be defined as the nation state of the Jewish people, and the right to self-determination in Israel would be unique to the Jewish people. The proposal also stated that the state of Israel should establish ethnic communities where every resident can preserve their culture and heritage,[27] that the Hebrew language would be considered the official language of the state of Israel (while granting the Arabic language a special status)."
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This from the Guardian doesn't look to me at all like a solid case of a stopped expansion
The Israeli prime minister said on Tuesday that he planned to make the move, which would permanently seize up to one-third of the West Bank, after the election next week and hinted it may have been approved by Washington.

“I am waiting to do this in maximum coordination with [Donald] Trump,” he said in a speech broadcast live on Israeli television.
I want more than that before accepting that Zionist expansion has stopped.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I want peace more than Netanyahu does.
Netanyahu, Israel’s longest-serving leader, is battling for his political survival and the announcement was interpreted as a rallying cry to his hardline rightwing base.

The prime minister [Netanyahu] stood in front of a large map on an easel that showed Israeli sovereignty extended over the vast majority of the Jordan Valley.

It appeared to display Israeli territory completely encircling the West Bank, slicing off the eastern border with Jordan. Jericho, a Palestinian city, and smaller Palestinian villages were displayed as enclaves that would not be annexed.
That is not a road to peace. It is an attempt to encourage the hard right by furhther annexations, and to fulfil the requirements of Trump's evangelical Christian supporters who support Israel for no better reason than that they think the Bible tells them to.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It's ganocidal antisemitism to object when Israel does it, I suppose. Here's the UN
Israel occupied two-thirds of the Golan Heights from Syria during the 1967 Six-Day War, and subsequently built Jewish settlements in the area. In 1981, Israel passed the Golan Heights Law, which extended Israeli "law, jurisdiction, and administration" to the area, including the Shebaa farms area. This declaration was declared "null and void and without international legal effect" by UNSC Resolution 497. The only state that recognized the annexation is the Federated States of Micronesia.
Note, from wiki again.
The Federated States of Micronesia (/ˌmaɪkroʊˈniːʒə/ ( listen); abbreviated FSM and also known simply as Micronesia) is an independent republic associated with the United States.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Jordan is not Palestine. Sweden is not Norway, though it once ruled Norway. The UK is not Ireland though it once ruled Ireland.
After the Six-Day War, Jordan lost control of the West Bank to Israel. However, the Palestinians in the West Bank lost neither their citizenship nor their seats in the Jordanian parliament. About 300,000 Palestinians fled to Jordan. In 1970, a conflict broke out between the Jordanian Armed Forces led by King Hussein and the Palestine Liberation Organization led by Yasser Arafat. This conflict was known as Black September. After the war, Jordan expelled the PLO. Palestinians in the West Bank would retain their Jordanian citizenship until Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank on 31 July 1988. Jordan later recognized the PLO as "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people."

As you can see, not one of these posts contains a link to the source of the quotes you used.
This is why I asked you for links to the sources of the quotes you used, because you didn't provide any.
I hope this now resolves your confusion.
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Old 7th October 2019, 01:48 AM   #325
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I am certain you have read the book and that it forms the foundation of your entire ideology.
Citation needed for the second part of this sentence.



Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I was asking if you had read my links, since you asked for them. But if you don't want to read rthem, that's fine with me.
I think it is clear from my previous posts that I have read these links.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post

The book, from the devastating crits it has received, seems worthless, unless you can persuade me otherwise. It is personal exchanges that form the subject of these discussions, not people telling one another to obtain and read massive propaganda tomes. Tell me why you like it, and I will read your post on the topic.
Recommending that you have at least a basic grasp of the subject under discussion seems an entirely reasonable stance to me. Condemning a book that you have not so much as glanced at does not.
Maybe that's just me.

As for the reasons I recommend it, they are threefold.
1. There are detailed accounts of the suffering of the Jews throughout the Muslim world. These accounts are firsthand ones, either from the victims themselves, or from travellers and expatriates who witnessed them. These accounts put the lie to the idea that Jews were living in harmony with Muslims. They were not. They were hanging on with grim determination, often because they had nowhere else to go. These accounts, being firsthand historical testaments are not, to my knowledge, in question.
2. It also details the legal background for this discrimination- the dhimmi laws, the formation of Jordan, and the propaganda war waged by the Arabs against Israel. All of this is historical fact and not, as far as I'm aware, in any kind of doubt.
3. This is the controversial part. The claim is that many of the so-called Palestinians were recent immigrants to the area that is now Israel. This claim is supported by a wealth of evidence, from the Ottoman survey in the late C19th, and from documents from the British Mandate. The counter-claims are that Peters misunderstood or misrepresented this data. However, I have yet to see any serious scholarly work that backs this up. To my mind, the criticism- and I'm thinking of the reviews you yourself have posted- stems from an ideological inability to accept that certain assumptions may not be correct, not from an actual examination of the source of these claims.
As I have shown, from your own links, the most that anyone has been able to say so far is that there may be some errors in the numbers. Accepting that this is so, it does not then follow that the entire thesis is wrong.

This, then, is why I recommend the book.
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Old 7th October 2019, 06:38 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
We can open a separate thread about Kashmir if you want, but if you wish to push the "Palestine is special" narrative you might try to gather a list of reasons as to why it is special.
And there is no reason to view Israel as any kind of liberal democracy it is really just like all the other governments in the region and we can properly excuse it when it say murders journalists. Just basic middle eastern behavior.

And again we can call the destruction of electrical infrastructure an Israeli victory. It fits their policy objectives fine and so why shouldn't it be viewed as the success it is?

I get it genocide is inevitable because constant fighting over past wrongs is always going to get in the way of any future progress so let them just kill each other off. And why should I care who wins, they are all the same anyway. You have convinced me that genocide is inevitable and it makes no difference who kills off who.
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Old 7th October 2019, 10:46 PM   #327
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And there is no reason to view Israel as any kind of liberal democracy it is really just like all the other governments in the region and we can properly excuse it when it say murders journalists. Just basic middle eastern behavior.
If you're going to go down that rabbit hole you'll need to explain your fixation on Israel.

Egypt has been making the native first people who settled the land - Copts - second class citizens in their own country for as long as there has been Israel. By the standards applied to Israel it is very much an appartheid state. Where's the outrage? If Israel is no better than the countries around it, why does it get criticized when it engages in the same behavior that is brushed off as normal as their neighbors do?

I can name one difference and one difference only: it permits Jew-bashing.

Quote:
I get it genocide is inevitable because constant fighting over past wrongs is always going to get in the way of any future progress so let them just kill each other off. And why should I care who wins, they are all the same anyway. You have convinced me that genocide is inevitable and it makes no difference who kills off who.
If you don't care who wins and just want it to be over with you're in the wrong thread.

This thread is titled "A Palestinian peace plan Israelis can live with". If you consider the topic to be irrelevant because you just want to kill off one of the two populations I have very little to say to you in this regard.

Other than perhaps "Seek help. STAT".

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Old 13th October 2019, 05:09 AM   #328
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https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/anno...state-solution

A peace plan that both sides can live with.
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Old 14th October 2019, 02:04 AM   #329
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/anno...state-solution

A peace plan that both sides can live with.
Seems eminently sensible.
However, I have no doubt that a certain poster here will read this as
"genocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocideg enocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegen ocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenoc idegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocid egenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocideg enocide" and then dismiss it.

Have the Palestinian Arabs responded to this at all? It would be nice to see some sanity prevailing over the entrenched hatred of so many of their leaders.
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Old 14th October 2019, 02:20 AM   #330
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Seems eminently sensible.
However, I have no doubt that a certain poster here will read this as
"genocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocideg enocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegen ocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenoc idegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocid egenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocidegenocideg enocide" and then dismiss it.

Have the Palestinian Arabs responded to this at all? It would be nice to see some sanity prevailing over the entrenched hatred of so many of their leaders.
You seem to be working on the assumption the leaders of Palestinian Arabs are interested in finding a solution to the problem. That would be killing the golden goose that is still laying eggs to their personal fortunes. They aren't stupid enough to attempt peace with Israel. Any kind of peace, including a genocide over the Jews of Israel, is unacceptable to them. That would mean they would actually have to face problems faced by their people, problems of radicalization and generations of nothing but hate that make for an utterly ingovernable populace.

No Palestinian Arab intelligent enough to become a "leader" would perfer that to what they have now, a comfortable existence, financed by foreign well-wishers, that can be perpetuted in eternity simply by spewing a little anti-Israeli vitrol every now and then. No Palestinian Arab unscrupulous enough to become a "leader" would consent to losing personal endowment for the good of his people.

That's the true nature of the Palestine-Israel problem and the reason why it will remain unsolvable for the foreseeable future. Only external pressure towards a peace deal Israel can live with can hope to end their sorry excuse for existence.

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Old 15th October 2019, 01:54 AM   #331
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You seem to be working on the assumption the leaders of Palestinian Arabs are interested in finding a solution to the problem.
Err...no.
Which part of the phrase "entrenched hatred of so many of their leaders" led you to believe I thought they wanted a peaceful solution?
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Old 15th October 2019, 02:18 AM   #332
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Err...no.
Which part of the phrase "entrenched hatred of so many of their leaders" led you to believe I thought they wanted a peaceful solution?
Hehe

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Old 17th October 2019, 05:21 AM   #333
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Have the Palestinian Arabs responded to this at all? (Gaza expansion westwards)

Sure thing. Abbas is rejecting it.
"The two-state solution (with a Palestine State in the hills west of Jordan) has been scuttled" and this plan is designed "to finish off the Palestinian cause."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1T307H
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Old 17th October 2019, 03:43 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Truly world-class research, that.

"Noam Chomsky says it might be so" is the sum total of your "research".

Noam Chomsky, by the way, is an idiot who has been wrong about lots of things. Simply accepting his word, without any supporting evidence, is a mistake.

Did your research go so far as to find any corroborating evidence, or did you just take his word for it?
Chomsky still denies that the Pol Pot regime was responsible for the mass murders in the Killling fields of Cambodia.
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Old 17th October 2019, 07:43 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/anno...state-solution

A peace plan that both sides can live with.
Seriously Web? Palestinians all flee to Gaza to become a “sort of” state is a peace plan? Sounds like go and live on the bits Israel doesn’t want.
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Old 17th October 2019, 08:11 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Seriously Web? Palestinians all flee to Gaza to become a “sort of” state is a peace plan? Sounds like go and live on the bits Israel doesn’t want.
I'm pretty sure Israel wants Gaza only slightly less than it wants Palestinians to calm the **** down and live peacefully somewhere - anywhere! Even Gaza, if that's the what it takes to buy their peace.

That was actually the plan, even. Israel withdrew from Gaza as a major concession to the Palestinians. But instead of buying peace, it just opened a new chapter in the Palestinian war on Israel.

The Gaza strip has a border with Egypt and a port on the Mediterranean. It should be a profitable economic zone for Israel. Instead, it's an internationally sanctioned foothold for an anti-Israeli terror group. Hell, it could be a profitable economic zone for Hamas, but they don't want peaceful economic activity. They want war with Israel.

If Israel really wanted to shove Palestinians into unwanted territory, they would have kept the Sinai at the end of the Yom Kippur War, and moved all the terrorists and their dependents there.
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Old 17th October 2019, 11:08 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Seriously Web? Palestinians all flee to Gaza to become a “sort of” state is a peace plan? Sounds like go and live on the bits Israel doesn’t want.
I'm pretty sure the plan called for Palestinians also recieving a substantial portion of the Sinai peninsula.

It's a bit subtle and difficult to see, here's the quote from the plan:

The New State Solution would thus be anchored first and foremost in the Gaza Strip, with territorial expansion into a section of the Sinai Peninsula. This state could be larger than anything that could be accommodated by the minute area of Judea and Samaria, thus granting geographical viability.

Emphasis mine. I hope you caught the hint.

It just so happens my incoherent rambling was just made into a proposal, which was shot down by the Palestinians because it would "blow them up" (actual quote).

It's almost as if those cynical enough to see through the transparent lies of the Palestinian leadership can anticipate their every move in advance. How odd.

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Old 18th October 2019, 05:28 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'm pretty sure the plan called for Palestinians also recieving a substantial portion of the Sinai peninsula.

It's a bit subtle and difficult to see, here's the quote from the plan:

The New State Solution would thus be anchored first and foremost in the Gaza Strip, with territorial expansion into a section of the Sinai Peninsula. This state could be larger than anything that could be accommodated by the minute area of Judea and Samaria, thus granting geographical viability.

Emphasis mine. I hope you caught the hint.

It just so happens my incoherent rambling was just made into a proposal, which was shot down by the Palestinians because it would "blow them up" (actual quote).



It's almost as if those cynical enough to see through the transparent lies of the Palestinian leadership can anticipate their every move in advance. How odd.

McHrozni
So the Palestinians get all the desert they can eat in exchange for the West Bank and Jerusalem....what a deal!!

Just a technicality but what happens to the Palestinians who don’t want to flee the West Bank under this plan of the century?
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Old 18th October 2019, 06:58 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
So the Palestinians get all the desert they can eat in exchange for the West Bank and Jerusalem....what a deal!!

Just a technicality but what happens to the Palestinians who don’t want to flee the West Bank under this plan of the century?
I read the entire proposal, why didn't you?

{{{ For those not wishing to relocate from Judea and Samaria, the more favorable demographic realities enjoyed by Israel would engender the confidence needed to annex Judea and Samaria with full and equal rights being extended to all, regardless of race, religion or creed. This would take place only once a 50% immigration threshold into the New State is achieved. }}} -- quoted from the part about 'demographics'

Also, vast areas of the "West Bank" are desert and scrublands, especially in the southern Hebron hills.

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Old 18th October 2019, 06:58 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I read the entire proposal, why didn't you?

{{{ For those not wishing to relocate from Judea and Samaria, the more favorable demographic realities enjoyed by Israel would engender the confidence needed to annex Judea and Samaria with full and equal rights being extended to all, regardless of race, religion or creed. This would take place only once a 50% immigration threshold into the New State is achieved. }}} -- quoted from the part about 'demographics'

Also, vast areas of the "West Bank" are desert and scrublands, especially in the southern Hebron hills.

https://images.haarets.co.il/image/f...1018316866.jpg
Lol.....Israel would give citizenship to those who stay? Well.....yes but only if they are a minority ? So if not enough agree to flee it’s no deal? What then?

Damn annoying all these people with the wrong mitochondrial DNA eh? And you say they would get full and equal status? But would you still require them to be identified as different?...full and equal but not the same?

Web....this is simply removal of arabs from land you want dressed up as a peace deal. Nobody is going to be even slightly interested.
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Old 18th October 2019, 09:34 PM   #341
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"removal of arabs from land you want"

There are millions upon millions of Arabs who desire to have the Jews removed, and over the past 70 years (and more) they've done what they can to make it happen.

See: HAMAS Charter preamble

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'


Arabs want yet another defective State? They have several dozen already, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and agree they should be able to form Palestine, but the caveat is ---- not in OUR heartlands.

And I say that I'm OK with another hostile Arab State, knowing in advance that it won't be a good neighbor.

It just won't.
Trust me.
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Old 19th October 2019, 12:27 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"removal of arabs from land you want"

There are millions upon millions of Arabs who desire to have the Jews removed, and over the past 70 years (and more) they've done what they can to make it happen.

See: HAMAS Charter preamble

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'


Arabs want yet another defective State? They have several dozen already, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and agree they should be able to form Palestine, but the caveat is ---- not in OUR heartlands.

And I say that I'm OK with another hostile Arab State, knowing in advance that it won't be a good neighbor.

It just won't.
Trust me.
Web you say your are ok with them forming a state as long as it’s somewhere else....somewhere they don’t live. Sounds like what they say...they don’t care if you form Israel as long as it’s somewhere else.

Seriously......you are going to have to come up with a plan that is something other than just shipping Arab’s to some desert.
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Old 19th October 2019, 05:01 AM   #343
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"...somewhere they don’t live..."

They DO live there. It is truly part of Historical Palestine. In fact, the Palestinan population of this area was DIVIDED in 1982 and the Egyptian border at Rafah literally cuts the town in half, with Palestinian families now seperated by barbed-wire.

It's not just "some desert" -- it's a highly valuable coastal salient, which can be developed to be the jewel of Palestine, with millions of now-stateless refugees choosing to return to Palestine and work hard to make their lives better.

C'mon Fool, what makes the Northern part of Sinai less of a value than Southern Sinai, which currently has tremendous tourism (see: Sharm elSheikh) and is about to be developed into the NEOM project? yeah, look that one up.
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Old 19th October 2019, 05:26 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"...somewhere they don’t live..."

They DO live there. It is truly part of Historical Palestine. In fact, the Palestinan population of this area was DIVIDED in 1982 and the Egyptian border at Rafah literally cuts the town in half, with Palestinian families now seperated by barbed-wire.

It's not just "some desert" -- it's a highly valuable coastal salient, which can be developed to be the jewel of Palestine, with millions of now-stateless refugees choosing to return to Palestine and work hard to make their lives better.

C'mon Fool, what makes the Northern part of Sinai less of a value than Southern Sinai, which currently has tremendous tourism (see: Sharm elSheikh) and is about to be developed into the NEOM project? yeah, look that one up.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...pg?imwidth=450" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="https://www.telegrap...mwidth=450</a>
Sounds like a fabulous place web....why don’t Israel expand there and leave the West Bank to the Palestinians?
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Old 19th October 2019, 07:45 AM   #345
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Fool, you are suggesting that Israel take over Gaza again? That's your peace proposal???
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Old 20th October 2019, 04:09 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Fool, you are suggesting that Israel take over Gaza again? That's your peace proposal???
No I was simply being sarcastic and suggesting that if Israelis see expanding into the desert as an attractive proposal they should consider it as an option for Israel. As for taking over Gaza again.....Israel removed settlements and imposed a blockade I don’t really see that as relinquishing control, just changing the control method.

Web I also would not enjoy Hamas next door but your proposed solution would seem to have no legs at all.

My peace proposal is roughly speaking Israel returning to something like 47 borders keeping some longstanding major settlements around Jerusalem. Palestine retains part of Jerusalem as it’s capital.

Now is the time for you to tell me what bits of that are totally unacceptable to Israel and we can return to the current situation.
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Old 20th October 2019, 05:52 AM   #347
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"47 borders"

That must be a typo.

1947 Borders are those of the UN Partition Plan in UN 181.

I certainly hope you were intending to articulate the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines?!

And if so, what would you say to Israel redrawing those lines in the Triangle (around Jenin -- into Wadi A'ra) which would have the effect of returning Palestinians living there to this improbable Westbank PalestineState. The 1949 military cease-fire Agreements with Jordan left this salient in control of the Israeli forces, and the Arabs in the area became Israelis, by a stroke of the pen lines on maps.

Maybe it's time to fix that anomaly?
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Old 20th October 2019, 08:21 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"47 borders"

That must be a typo.

1947 Borders are those of the UN Partition Plan in UN 181.

I certainly hope you were intending to articulate the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines?!

And if so, what would you say to Israel redrawing those lines in the Triangle (around Jenin -- into Wadi A'ra) which would have the effect of returning Palestinians living there to this improbable Westbank PalestineState. The 1949 military cease-fire Agreements with Jordan left this salient in control of the Israeli forces, and the Arabs in the area became Israelis, by a stroke of the pen lines on maps.

Maybe it's time to fix that anomaly?
Correct...the cease fire lines was what I meant.
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Old 20th October 2019, 10:55 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
So the Palestinians get all the desert they can eat in exchange for the West Bank and Jerusalem....what a deal!!
That's what you get if you launch imperialist wars of aggression and lose, repeatedly.

The other Arab states should offer an asylum to any Palestinian that is not happy with said desert, to complete the population exchange began by their expulsion of Jews from 1949 onward.

Quote:
Just a technicality but what happens to the Palestinians who don’t want to flee the West Bank under this plan of the century?
See above.

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Old 20th October 2019, 11:04 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Web....this is simply removal of arabs from land you want dressed up as a peace deal. Nobody is going to be even slightly interested.
But of course it is just that. Any peace deal that does not involve uprooting one populace or another is a pipe dream, it has been for decades now.

The side that indoctrinates their children in stabbing the wrong ethnicity bears pretty much all the blame and is the one that needs to change ways before any other solution can be contemplated.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


As I said earlier, if Palestinian leadership changed their ways today, a different peace would be possible by about 2140, but not before. Assuming they do not want to change their ways the only way to peace is to uproot one populace or the other.

If you want to claim it is the Jews should be uprooted you may justify your prefference now.

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Old 22nd October 2019, 08:10 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
But of course it is just that. Any peace deal that does not involve uprooting one populace or another is a pipe dream, it has been for decades now.

The side that indoctrinates their children in stabbing the wrong ethnicity bears pretty much all the blame and is the one that needs to change ways before any other solution can be contemplated.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


As I said earlier, if Palestinian leadership changed their ways today, a different peace would be possible by about 2140, but not before. Assuming they do not want to change their ways the only way to peace is to uproot one populace or the other.

If you want to claim it is the Jews should be uprooted you may justify your prefference now.

McHrozni
Son if you are a fan of ethnic cleansing knock yourself out. Your support is a small and shrinking mob you are not going to achieve your dream.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 11:53 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Son if you are a fan of ethnic cleansing knock yourself out.
I support ethnic cleansing as much as Greta Thunberg supports climate change.

In case there is any confustion, I'm talking about this Greta Thunberg:

https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg?re...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

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Old 23rd October 2019, 05:22 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I support ethnic cleansing as much as Greta Thunberg supports climate change.

In case there is any confustion, I'm talking about this Greta Thunberg:

https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg?re...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

McHrozni
you seem rather confused as to what you support. You don’t support ethnic cleansing just the removal of one ethnicity. Good attempt at a distracting change of subject. You will do well in Israel threads.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 05:38 AM   #354
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Let's start by acknowledging that "ethnic cleansing" is a loaded and charged phrase.
Israelis are fully aware that WE are the targets of ongoing attempts to be cleansed.
Iran is building a noose that threatens to tighten around our necks --- with Hezbollah now ensconsed in Syria and Lebanon; with Iran deploying long-range rockets (and developing warhead capabilities with N.Korea, for the eventuality of tipping their weaponry with nukes); having the jihadists of HAMAS loaded for war; and ISIL making hay while the sun shines in N.Sinai.

A Gaza/N.Sinai PalestineState is of major value to all Palestinian Arabs worldwide. It provides them with the outlet they desire to express themselves as a unique "Nation" -- which is not gonna happen in the WestBank, no way, no how.
Israel is not going to withdraw to a position that is 9-miles across at the waist.
THAT postition has been properly described as the "Auschwitz Border"
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:17 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
you seem rather confused as to what you support. You don’t support ethnic cleansing just the removal of one ethnicity.
Removal of one ethnicity was already carried out by the Arabs, they chased the Jews out of their lands with only shirts on their backs to call their own. I'd just like permanent peace in the land by completing the population exchange and giving Palestinians a new home in those Arab lands.

A population exchange like this is not considered a genocide. We speak of Armenian genocide but not of Greek and Turkish genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

The scale of that exchange is greater than Israel-Palestinian exchange by approximately a factor of two. People were summarily thrown from their homes, who were confiscated by the state and sold at nominal value, to make room from refugees. This is as bad or worse than the "catastrophe" of 1949 in Israel.
There really is no shortage of precendens you know, the only unique detal about Israel-Palestine conflict is the sheer hypocrycy of just about all critics of Israel and supporters of Palestine.

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Old 24th October 2019, 04:47 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Removal of one ethnicity was already carried out by the Arabs, they chased the Jews out of their lands with only shirts on their backs to call their own. I'd just like permanent peace in the land by completing the population exchange and giving Palestinians a new home in those Arab lands.

A population exchange like this is not considered a genocide. We speak of Armenian genocide but not of Greek and Turkish genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

The scale of that exchange is greater than Israel-Palestinian exchange by approximately a factor of two. People were summarily thrown from their homes, who were confiscated by the state and sold at nominal value, to make room from refugees. This is as bad or worse than the "catastrophe" of 1949 in Israel.
There really is no shortage of precendens you know, the only unique detal about Israel-Palestine conflict is the sheer hypocrycy of just about all critics of Israel and supporters of Palestine.

McHrozni
If it really makes you feel more comfortable to call Ethnic cleansing population exchange then do what you have to do.....maybe you could call it warm cuddly population exchange?

Remove Jews from an area = Ethnic cleansing
Remove Arabs from an area = warm cuddly population exchange.

Anyway.....I think it’s a moot point because With the exit of Netanyahu I don’t think there is anyone left with the ability or desire to make this bizzare “solution” happen.
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Old 24th October 2019, 08:33 AM   #357
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The question we Israelis face today --- "Do Palestinians want a State. or do they want OUR State?"
After war after war after war, and the terrorism, and the Iranian-sponsored horrors threatened to be inflicted upon us even as I type this --- where does a nine-mile wide strip even enter into the equation anymore?

My preference is for them to solve their own problems and come up with their own solutions, as two million Arab Palestinians across the hills of Judea and Samaria can merely get up their own gumption to provide a basis for their State on the glistening shores of the Med.

Does it involve MOVING from one part of Historical Palestine to another? Yep.
Bedouins join their Bedoiuin brethren, Egyptian Palestinian families reunited, Jordanians and Lebanese and Syrian Palestinian refugees can fly in and help with the hotels, seaport cargo, energy projects, tourism traffic, etc.

Cleansing? I see it as being cathartic and after all, quite necessary for the Palestinians' future success.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:33 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Removal of one ethnicity was already carried out by the Arabs, they chased the Jews out of their lands with only shirts on their backs to call their own. I'd just like permanent peace in the land by completing the population exchange and giving Palestinians a new home in those Arab lands.

A population exchange like this is not considered a genocide. We speak of Armenian genocide but not of Greek and Turkish genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

The scale of that exchange is greater than Israel-Palestinian exchange by approximately a factor of two. People were summarily thrown from their homes, who were confiscated by the state and sold at nominal value, to make room from refugees. This is as bad or worse than the "catastrophe" of 1949 in Israel.
There really is no shortage of precendens you know, the only unique detal about Israel-Palestine conflict is the sheer hypocrycy of just about all critics of Israel and supporters of Palestine.

McHrozni
I agree with you about the hypocrisy of a lot of the critics of Isreal, but expulsion of all Arabs from Israel is where I get off the bus.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:34 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Removal of one ethnicity was already carried out by the Arabs, they chased the Jews out of their lands with only shirts on their backs to call their own. I'd just like permanent peace in the land by completing the population exchange and giving Palestinians a new home in those Arab lands.

A population exchange like this is not considered a genocide. We speak of Armenian genocide but not of Greek and Turkish genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

The scale of that exchange is greater than Israel-Palestinian exchange by approximately a factor of two. People were summarily thrown from their homes, who were confiscated by the state and sold at nominal value, to make room from refugees. This is as bad or worse than the "catastrophe" of 1949 in Israel.
There really is no shortage of precendens you know, the only unique detal about Israel-Palestine conflict is the sheer hypocrycy of just about all critics of Israel and supporters of Palestine.

McHrozni
ANd do you know how brutal and bloody the Greek/Turkish "Population Exchange" was?

Sorry, but you are just plain wrong on this.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:47 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANd do you know how brutal and bloody the Greek/Turkish "Population Exchange" was?

Sorry, but you are just plain wrong on this.
I think his point is that the people who are outraged about Israel aren't even more outraged about the Greek/Turkish thing. Because their outrage against Israel is not actually the rational, principled thing they pretend it is.
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