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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 5th September 2019, 09:57 AM   #761
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Wait, this isn't the hard flouncing thread?
I can't read "hard flouncing" without imagining it as a sex act.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I can't read "hard flouncing" without imagining it as a sex act.
Well, that's a relief. I thought it was just me.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:14 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I can't read "hard flouncing" without imagining it as a sex act.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, that's a relief. I thought it was just me.
It's the only reason I click on the thread.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:18 AM   #764
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I haven't been keeping up but I can think of what might be an effective strategy but would probably be seen as risky. And that is rebranding what some people seem to consider "far left," thanks to very consistent messaging by the Republican Party.

Universal health care is not far left.
Safeguarding our elections is not far left.
Standing with allies is not far left.
Standing up to dictators is not far left.
Affordable education is not far left.
A non-political Supreme Court is not far left.
Background checks are not far left.

The above issues largely have to do with branding themselves as centrists. Some people will say that is the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

When Democratic candidates talk about free college, are they also talking about free tuition at trade schools? IMO they need to frame issues in ways that appeal to conservative values. Because Democrats are actually more conservative than the Republicans are at the moment. Blowing up trade relationships is not conservative. Neither IMO is outlawing abortion at this point.
Who would be saying we shouldn't frame these ideas as moderate?

The free college is one of those issues that IMO is being poorly framed. It needs to be framed as "affordable college" and I agree adding trade school tuition assistance is important.

While I didn't watch the 7 hours behind a paywall debate on climate change, reports this morning (Democracy Now) were that Warren emphasized retraining people who lose jobs to clean energy. That is critical messaging that Clinton missed on the coal issue.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:21 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
From that link it is not clear to me what "go after" really means. Supposing they do find something, I dunno, dirty(?), about some reporter, so what. Will the very media they are targeting print the dirt. I doubt it.

The whole thing sounds like, "Way, way, some in the media don't like us." It's just another effort to pry money out of the fat cats to enrich the "campaign consultant" class.
It's not about the media printing it, it's about spreading it on social media.

Edited to add after being reminded, and there is plenty of right wing media who happily spread this stuff.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:26 AM   #766
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, that's a relief. I thought it was just me.
But not a good sex act. The kind one does because there's no other options, perhaps because of limited time or precarious privacy, or having broken limbs.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:27 AM   #767
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
But not a good sex act. The kind one does because there's no other options, perhaps because of limited time or precarious privacy, or having broken limbs.
I thought the term for that was "brokeback mountain"?
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:28 AM   #768
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Biden is a very healthy young man who has the normal amount of eye bleeding.

not that I think that this is a good reason to not support Biden, but I hope it undercuts him anyway.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:30 AM   #769
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Biden is a very healthy young man who has the normal amount of eye bleeding.

not that I think that this is a good reason to not support Biden, but I hope it undercuts him anyway.
Wait, eye bleeding? Did that happen?
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:31 AM   #770
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I thought the term for that was "brokeback mountain"?
No, to brokeback mountain is to culturally appropriate while wearing gayface.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:33 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The free college is one of those issues that IMO is being poorly framed. It needs to be framed as "affordable college"
I'd be interested to see a focus group result comparing the two.

As long as it can be demonstrated to not do something awful to the economy, I suspect most people prefer "free".

What do you see as the problem here?
https://www.vox.com/2019/4/22/185091...t-free-college

Quote:
The plan would cancel up to $50,000 in student loan debt for an estimated 42 million Americans, and invest in debt-free college for students attending two- or four-year public institutions. It also comes with a hefty price tag of $1.25 trillion over 10 years. Warren plans to pay for it with the ultra-millionaire tax she introduced in January, which would tax the 75,000 wealthiest families in America.
Quote:
Make public two- and four-year institutions tuition-free and expand Pell Grant funding to go toward additional college costs like housing, transportation, food, and books.
I suspect most people are skeptical about things being marketed by politicians as "affordable" now.

I think when many people hear "affordable", they're going to think of stuff like this.

So, I'd be surprised if people were more enthusiastic about "affordable" college compared to "tuition-free" and "debt-free".
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Last edited by kellyb; 5th September 2019 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:46 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Wait, eye bleeding? Did that happen?
yes, during the climate change panel on CNN. A vessel in his eye burst and there was a large blood spot.

https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/st...s-bleeding-eye
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:56 AM   #773
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
yes, during the climate change panel on CNN. A vessel in his eye burst and there was a large blood spot.

https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/st...s-bleeding-eye
Good lord. From stress? Or just falling apart, Skeksis-style?
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:57 AM   #774
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Good lord. From stress? Or just falling apart, Skeksis-style?
Not enough essence of Gelfling in his cereals this morning.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:58 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not enough essence of Gelfling in his cereals this morning.
They're Aughrrrrrrreat!
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:59 AM   #776
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They're Aughrrrrrrreat!
Movie-related puns are the best. We should stop arguing with each other and just quote movies and other forms of fiction all the time.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:07 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Movie-related puns are the best. We should stop arguing with each other and just quote movies and other forms of fiction all the time.
How do you mean, fiction? The Dark Crystal is a historical documentary. My family legend proves it, as I am 1/64th Skeksis on my mother's side.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:09 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How do you mean, fiction? The Dark Crystal is a historical documentary. My family legend proves it, as I am 1/64th Skeksis on my mother's side.
That's very insulting to the Skekses community, and don't you dare get a DNA test for that, 'Chamberlain'.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:16 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd be interested to see a focus group result comparing the two.

As long as it can be demonstrated to not do something awful to the economy, I suspect most people prefer "free".
Based on what?

Quote:
What do you see as the problem here?
https://www.vox.com/2019/4/22/185091...t-free-college
The plan is okay, the framing is troublesome.

Quote:
I suspect most people are skeptical about things being marketed by politicians as "affordable" now.
Of course they are. I am too.

Quote:
So, I'd be surprised if people were more enthusiastic about "affordable" college compared to "tuition-free" and "debt-free".
Again, who are you referring to?
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:31 AM   #780
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Based on what?
It's a suspicion based on the possibility/probability that "most people are skeptical about things being marketed by politicians as "affordable" now."

Quote:
The plan is okay, the framing is troublesome.
Why do you think the frame is troublesome?

Quote:
Again, who are you referring to?
Americans. Voters.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/coll...uition-n620856

Quote:
This might be an idea whose time has come: Nearly two-thirds of Americans are in favor of free college for everyone, and about three-quarters think at least some people should be eligible for free college, a new survey shows.
Another link on it here:
https://www.bankrate.com/finance/con...ulse-0816.aspx
Quote:
Should college be free?
On another survey question, 62% of all Americans support making tuition to public colleges and universities free to anyone who wants to attend, with millennials most in favor, at a hefty 77%
It's a 3 year old survey, but I don't think people have decided to oppose it since then.

There's also this poll with different results, though, where "against" narrowly beats "for":
https://poll.qu.edu/national/release...ReleaseID=2617

It might be the difference (in part) between framing it as "tuition-free" (or "debt-free") vs simply "free"?

ETA:

There's also this poll from just a year ago, where Reuters framed it as "FREE COLLEGE TUITION?(For those who meet income levels, paid for by taxing speculative trading)"

And:
Quote:
the idea has solid support: Seventy-nine percent of Democrats and 60 percent of those polled said they support the idea. It’s even got support among a significant minority of Republicans, 41 percent. (Fifty percent of Republicans opposed the idea.)
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:55 AM   #781
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Given how much of a science polling and market research have turned into I find it hard to believe, unless it's just another thing we've abandoned to our post truth new reality, that it's impossible for the biggest political party in America to not be able to get some data on whether it would be more beneficial to lean hard left or toward the center in this election.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:17 PM   #782
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Some Bernibots trying to make an issue of Biden's age.
Oh, the irony.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #783
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SOmeone said the US Congress has been unpopular the last 5 or 6 years.
The US Congress has NEVER won any popularity contests.
It has always,no matter who in control, been a scapegoat and a popular target of jokes.
In the 1870's Mark Twain made the statement "No man's life or property are safe in times of War, Revolution, or when the US Congress is in session".
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:24 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOmeone said the US Congress has been unpopular the last 5 or 6 years.
The US Congress has NEVER won any popularity contests.
It has always,no matter who in control, been a scapegoat and a popular target of jokes.
In the 1870's Mark Twain made the statement "No man's life or property are safe in times of War, Revolution, or when the US Congress is in session".
It's the beauty of distributed responsibility. Since Congress doesn't have a single face you can hate "Congress" while never changing the handful of Congressmen you directly elect.

It's how we get the level of insanity that a leading legislative body with a 11 percent approval rating and a 96 percent reelection rate requires.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #785
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I give Cory Booker credit for being the only guy last night who spoke "truth to power" about Nuclear Energy:no way you can realistically get away from fossil fuels without it.
IMHO too many progressives have their heads screwed on backwards when it comes to this;it's almost like they have a 'Well, the left opposed nuclear enerty in the 60's and 70's therefore we have to oppose it".
SOmeone said the problem with the GOP is they want to live in the 1950's and the Dems want to live in the 1960's. I think that is fairly accurate.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:28 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's the beauty of distributed responsibility. Since Congress doesn't have a single face you can hate "Congress" while never changing the handful of Congressmen you directly elect.

It's how we get the level of insanity that a leading legislative body with a 11 percent approval rating and a 96 percent reelection rate requires.
That is the irony; lots of people consider every congress critter to be thief and a idiot except for his rep or senator; he of she is a great person.

Which is another reason I am becoming a fanantic on the subject of term limits:if democracy is to survive, we need a much greater rate of turnover in congress then we have now.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:31 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That is the irony; lots of people consider every congress critter to be thief and a idiot except for his rep or senator; he of she is a great person.

Which is another reason I am becoming a fanantic on the subject of term limits:if democracy is to survive, we need a much greater rate of turnover in congress then we have now.
The cynic in me at times sees that as saving us from ourselves, something I'm always uncomfortable with. If (g)we keep elected the nimrods we deserve whatever we get.

That being said my realism always wins out over my idealism. This level of stagnation is simply not healthy for our government.

I mean all of this could be solved with no new laws, no new amendments, no new processes with a simple engaged and active voter base but I think I'm well done past waiting for that miracle.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:35 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOmeone said the US Congress has been unpopular the last 5 or 6 years.
The US Congress has NEVER won any popularity contests.
I provided a link to it's popularity over the last 50 years. It's been at a historic all-time (since the start of such data collection) low over the past 5-7.

It was at 60% approval in the late 90's, topped out at 84% on 9/11, and was down to 9% in 2014.

It averaged about 40% until 2006.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:39 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's the beauty of distributed responsibility. Since Congress doesn't have a single face you can hate "Congress" while never changing the handful of Congressmen you directly elect.

It's how we get the level of insanity that a leading legislative body with a 11 percent approval rating and a 96 percent reelection rate requires.
And most people just not voting.

And many or most people are in a situation where the people they'd actually like to be in office won't win. Both parties promote the people who get all the donations, and what the donor class wants is not in line with what normal people want.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:43 PM   #790
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I provided a link to it's popularity over the last 50 years. It's been at a historic all-time (since the start of such data collection) low over the past 5-7.
I am not disputing that;what I am saying is congress has never been a really popular institution.
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:44 PM   #791
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Some Bernibots trying to make an issue of Biden's age.
Oh, the irony.
Huh?
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Old 5th September 2019, 12:55 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOmeone said the US Congress has been unpopular the last 5 or 6 years.
The US Congress has NEVER won any popularity contests.
It has always,no matter who in control, been a scapegoat and a popular target of jokes.
In the 1870's Mark Twain made the statement "No man's life or property are safe in times of War, Revolution, or when the US Congress is in session".
But that ignores just how unpopular it is today. It's not a constant level of disapproval. It really is at a ~50 year (probably more) low in recent years.

Of course, I'm sure this evidence will be dismissed by Belz... et al, just like the other evidence.



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Old 5th September 2019, 01:00 PM   #793
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I give Cory Booker credit for being the only guy last night who spoke "truth to power" about Nuclear Energy:no way you can realistically get away from fossil fuels without it.
IMHO too many progressives have their heads screwed on backwards when it comes to this;it's almost like they have a 'Well, the left opposed nuclear enerty in the 60's and 70's therefore we have to oppose it".
I agree about Booker, but I can't imagine in 7 hours that nobody else talked about nuclear energy.

BTW, the anti-nuke movement in the US mostly focused on weapons, not power plants until the mid-1970s. I suspect that with the Vietnam War ending, a lot of people were casting about for another cause to march and sing songs about. But it was still pretty fringe left until two things happened nearly simultaneously in 1979. The movie the China Syndrome was released and a couple weeks later Three Mile Island happened.

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SOmeone said the problem with the GOP is they want to live in the 1950's and the Dems want to live in the 1960's. I think that is fairly accurate.
Heh, that's pretty good. Personally I am happy to live in the era that I do. Most people would hate it if they could really go back in time to those days. They forget how shoddily things were made back then; the assumption was that everybody was an amateur auto mechanic. And three TV stations unless you lived in a big city, in which case you might have five or six, with spotty reception that meant you adjusted the rabbit ears (antenna). I can remember a lot of times when you'd get it perfect and you'd let go and it would immediately go bad again. No internet, no video games.
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Old 5th September 2019, 02:30 PM   #794
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
They forget how shoddily things were made back then; the assumption was that everybody was an amateur auto mechanic.
You mean how one washing machine lasted decades, without needing intervention? Or how simple appliances like electric kettles lasted for 15 years, then needed an element replaced to be good for another 15?

Cars might have been less technologically advanced, but they were also easy to fix, because they were so low-tech. I'm a total dummy when it comes to fixing cars, but I managed to replace a head gasket without any trouble.

I'd say the idea that life was "worse" 40-50 years ago because we have better tech is bunkum.

Things were made to last, not wear out in 3-4 years.

And there was virtually nothing made out of plastic. Drinks came in glass, groceries in paper and toys were made of metal.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
And three TV stations unless you lived in a big city, in which case you might have five or six, with spotty reception that meant you adjusted the rabbit ears (antenna). I can remember a lot of times when you'd get it perfect and you'd let go and it would immediately go bad again. No internet, no video games.
You say that like it's a bad thing.

I happen to think the exact opposite and even have a thread somewhere that the internet is the worst thing ever.

The trouble is, with the population having doubled since 1969, we cannot turn that clock back and return to sensible, sustainable living.
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Old 5th September 2019, 03:42 PM   #795
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You mean how one washing machine lasted decades, without needing intervention? Or how simple appliances like electric kettles lasted for 15 years, then needed an element replaced to be good for another 15?

Cars might have been less technologically advanced, but they were also easy to fix, because they were so low-tech. I'm a total dummy when it comes to fixing cars, but I managed to replace a head gasket without any trouble.

I'd say the idea that life was "worse" 40-50 years ago because we have better tech is bunkum.

Things were made to last, not wear out in 3-4 years.

And there was virtually nothing made out of plastic. Drinks came in glass, groceries in paper and toys were made of metal.



You say that like it's a bad thing.

I happen to think the exact opposite and even have a thread somewhere that the internet is the worst thing ever.

The trouble is, with the population having doubled since 1969, we cannot turn that clock back and return to sensible, sustainable living.
Why did you put my name in when you are replying to Brainster?
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Old 5th September 2019, 04:10 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's a suspicion based on the possibility/probability that "most people are skeptical about things being marketed by politicians as "affordable" now."
That's not what I asked. Please read what you are replying to. I don't want to end up in another time-wasting back and forth.

The point was about your claim people prefer free to affordable. I get it 'affordable' has it's own problems. But a large number of people get very angry when they think people are getting stuff for free from their taxes.

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Why do you think the frame is troublesome?
For the same reason calling it "free" sends voters fleeing to the right side of the aisle.

There is a third way education can be framed but I will have to address that later. It requires energy I don't have right now.


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Yeah I saw that. I want to know who they polled, how did they ask the questions and is it an outlier or not.

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That is about people thinking it's worthwhile to attend college, not is it valuable for the community to invest in educating college students. Notice further down the people surveyed were against forgiving student debt.
“People who have already paid off their student loans tend to be opposed to loan forgiveness for current students,” says Mark Kantrowitz, publisher and vice president of strategy for the financial aid website Cappex.
"Can't get something for free if I didn't," is a typical human sentiment.

This discussion isn't going to go anywhere until I have time to invest in the debate. I'll defer it at the moment.
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Old 5th September 2019, 05:10 PM   #797
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You mean how one washing machine lasted decades, without needing intervention? Or how simple appliances like electric kettles lasted for 15 years, then needed an element replaced to be good for another 15?

Cars might have been less technologically advanced, but they were also easy to fix, because they were so low-tech. I'm a total dummy when it comes to fixing cars, but I managed to replace a head gasket without any trouble.

I'd say the idea that life was "worse" 40-50 years ago because we have better tech is bunkum.

Things were made to last, not wear out in 3-4 years.
Planned obsolescence is not a term that was invented recently. But I also take issue with the idea that things were higher quality or lasted longer back then. As a kid, I never outgrew my sneakers; they were always trashed after a few months. Even as an adult mine seldom lasted more than half a year.

Then I bought a pair of Nikes and they lasted two years.

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And there was virtually nothing made out of plastic. Drinks came in glass, groceries in paper and toys were made of metal.
Lots of toys kids used back in the 1960s were made out of plastic. Miniature army men. Water pistols. Frisbees. Hula hoops. Colorforms. Legos.

Quote:
I happen to think the exact opposite and even have a thread somewhere that the internet is the worst thing ever.

The trouble is, with the population having doubled since 1969, we cannot turn that clock back and return to sensible, sustainable living.
Rose-colored glasses don't give you 20-20 eyesight.
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Old 5th September 2019, 05:33 PM   #798
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That is the irony; lots of people consider every congress critter to be thief and a idiot except for his rep or senator; he of she is a great person.

Which is another reason I am becoming a fanantic on the subject of term limits:if democracy is to survive, we need a much greater rate of turnover in congress then we have now.
You know who else was a fan of term limits? George Nethercutt, who defeated a sitting speaker of the house pretty much solely on that issue. Until it came time to limit HIS term, of course.

Not saying you're wrong, because you aren't, just an example of why it won't be happening.
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Old 5th September 2019, 05:35 PM   #799
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You know who else was a fan of term limits? George Nethercutt, who defeated a sitting speaker of the house pretty much solely on that issue. Until it came time to limit HIS term, of course.

Not saying you're wrong, because you aren't, just an example of why it won't be happening.
The best way to get that kind of legislation through is to exempt sitting members of Congress. The ones who are there now can be grandfathered in, and only once they are gone will the term limits apply.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 5th September 2019, 05:42 PM   #800
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You know who else was a fan of term limits? George Nethercutt, who defeated a sitting speaker of the house pretty much solely on that issue. Until it came time to limit HIS term, of course.
And also pretty much anybody running for president wants to reign in the power of the executive branch. Until they get in.
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