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Old 22nd October 2019, 12:13 PM   #1761
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Cherry pick quotes much?
You have a terrible issue with answering questions and addressing points.

Why would people listen to you? That's the question I'm asking, regardless of what came after.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 12:16 PM   #1762
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
To be fair, if he's president we'll all be "workers" in his administration. ; P
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Old 22nd October 2019, 12:17 PM   #1763
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To be fair, if he's president we'll all be "workers" in his administration. ; P
Ha!
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Old 22nd October 2019, 12:19 PM   #1764
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
See, this is the problem, people don't get it how advanced and significant marketing science actually is.

And it doesn't make a lick of difference which party Lakoff supports. I cited Rove and Luntz, both staunch Republicans as well.
I am alarmed by the increased ability of media (in the broadest possible sense) to manipulate as well.
I have spent decades in sales, and can attest to the efficacy of well researched methods of manipulating perception. There is a great deal more to it than most of us expect, and we are all victims of it- even those of us who know it is being used on us.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 12:47 PM   #1765
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To be fair, if he's president we'll all be "workers" in his administration. ; P
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Old 22nd October 2019, 12:50 PM   #1766
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
My gut reaction is negative, to be honest.

First off he answered for her and I'd be interested to know her position on that.

It looks like a blatant endorsement-for-access deal from the "we aren't going to do politics as usual" bloc.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 02:14 PM   #1767
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Here's what Buttigieg's campaign learned from focus groups in South Carolina:

Quote:
The 21-page report, conducted by the Benenson Strategy Group with black Democratic South Carolina voters in mid-July and obtained exclusively by McClatchy, found that “being gay was a barrier for these voters, particularly for the men who seemed deeply uncomfortable even discussing it. … [T]heir preference is for his sexuality to not be front and center.”

While the report stated that Buttigieg’s sexuality was not a “disqualifier” for these voters, some of the focus group participants questioned why Buttigieg even brought it up.

“That’s not my thing but I wouldn’t want to know that as a candidate,” said one female participant under 40. “Too much information.”

“I’ll go ahead and say it,” said a male participant. “I don’t like the fact that he threw out there that he lives with his husband.”

...

Some of the focus group participants wondered whether foreign leaders would accept a gay president. “Are they going to relate to him with a husband?,” a female participant over 40 asked.

“We need someone in the position now as a strong leader coming from what we have now, and that’s the only reason I think that would hurt him,” added a male participant.

...

Clay Middleton, a South Carolina Democratic National Committee member currently advising Cory Booker, said he was not surprised by the Buttigieg campaign’s findings.

“I’ve been a black guy all my life in the South and it is one of those things. African-Americans, when it comes to certain things, are very conservative,” Middleton said. “If you needed a focus group to tell you that, ok.”

Of all members of the focus groups, older women were observed to be the most capable of moving past Buttigieg’s sexual orientation, but even they preferred he didn’t make it a focal point.

“I know there’s going to be that one little thing that holds him back,” said a female over 40. “I’m fine with it, to each their own, but … ”

...

Johnnie Cordero, the black caucus chairman of South Carolina Democrats, said he spoke one-on-one with Buttigieg about running as a gay candidate in the South last spring.

“To be honest with you, it’s going to be a problem. I know he knows that because we’ve discussed it,” Cordero said. “My advice to him was, don’t flaunt it. … I’m reluctant to say this for publication, but it’s an important fact.”

It’s blunt advice that’s divergent from what Buttigieg heard from Rev. Al Sharpton, who told him to campaign in the South with his husband “because we have got to break down this barrier, unapologetic.”

Cordero said personal engagement with African-Americans in private settings would be the best way to allay their skepticism.

“Just don’t force it down people’s throats. That was my advice to him,” Cordero said. “Oddly enough he agreed it was not to his advantage to make a big deal out of it.”

“He can change it not overnight but dramatically, that outside of that issue he is a person with integrity and honesty,” Cordero added.

When asked which approach was the correct path for the campaign, Neal said, “I think he should stick to why he’s running for president of the United States. Who he goes home to is not an issue … He’s running for president of the United States, not president of a certain community.”

Former DNC chair Donna Brazile said she believes that black voters have shown to be more tolerant and accepting than most Americans once they get to know the person.

“The mayor must convince these voters of what they share in common versus our vast differences of background, personality or sexual orientation,” Brazile said. “The best place to start is by reminding these voters that he is a person of faith.”

Buttigieg’s faith is one of the topics the campaign tested in the focus groups. For older women, it was “a real winner and pushed them past their doubts,” the campaign found. But some African-American men were more skeptical.

“How can you refer to God when a lot of people think you’re living ungodly? You know what I’m saying,” asked one male participant.
And on Harris:

Quote:
The focus groups were also utilized to drill down on one of the most memorable moments of the primary so far: Kamala Harris’ challenge to Biden’s record on race during the first debate.

Their finding: Black South Carolina voters were less impressed with Harris’ busing retort than white voters in Iowa and New Hampshire. While Harris was seen as “aggressive” by some participants, older women found her attack on Biden offputting.

“Trustworthiness went out the door because [Kamala] will never be on topic with something. She will try to garner that black vote and that black sympathy and speak to us as if we are less,” one woman said.

“Look at where she’s at. Get over yourself. I was a product of busing. It does make me lose respect for her,” added another female over 40.

Young women were confused by the busing topic altogether. “What does she mean by that, actually on a bus or what was she saying?” asked a woman under 40.

Overall, participants credited Biden for remaining composed and liked that he “didn’t stoop to Harris’ level and hit back in the face of an unfair attack.” These African-Americans appeared willing to look past Biden’s flaws due to his connection to Obama.
Linky.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 08:33 PM   #1768
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Oh god...

CBS in the Morning to AOC: Why back an old white guy?

4:10
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diversity is great and all, but...
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Old 22nd October 2019, 09:35 PM   #1769
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
My gut reaction is negative, to be honest.

First off he answered for her and I'd be interested to know her position on that.

It looks like a blatant endorsement-for-access deal from the "we aren't going to do politics as usual" bloc.
As long as she's happy and willing, I count that as a positive, myself. There's a number of positions where she could serve with excellence, regardless of the President. With that said... while Bernie answered that for her, it was pretty clearly done in a light-hearted way, and she still made her answer pretty clear afterwards, even if that answer was neither a yes or a no, but rather more of an "I don't know yet. If I think I can do more good there than where I am, then yes, but I would need to evaluate such seriously, rather than just giving a general off the cuff answer."
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Old 22nd October 2019, 09:45 PM   #1770
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I am alarmed by the increased ability of media (in the broadest possible sense) to manipulate as well.
I have spent decades in sales, and can attest to the efficacy of well researched methods of manipulating perception. There is a great deal more to it than most of us expect, and we are all victims of it- even those of us who know it is being used on us.
Yes.

Though hopefully the more educated/informed a person is, the more immune one is to the tactics. But you are right, none of us have absolute immunity.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 04:13 PM   #1771
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes.

Though hopefully the more educated/informed a person is, the more immune one is to the tactics. But you are right, none of us have absolute immunity.
It is just when you think you are too smart to fall for a scam, that you are most likely to fall for a scam.
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Old 24th October 2019, 11:19 AM   #1772
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Iowa State University poll puts Buttigieg in second place, with Biden in fourth. What I particularly like about this poll is that they show first choice and second choice and then "considering". One of the quirks of the Iowa caucuses is that if you can't get 15% of the people at the local caucus to support your candidate, you either have to leave, or throw your support to another candidate. This poll gives a pretty good indication that candidates like Warren and Buttigieg have a bigger potential group of voters than their first-place support might indicate once the field gets whittled down

I am particularly amused by the graphic on Marianne Williamson; she is the first choice of a very small group of voters, the second choice of none, and being considered by none. It is also notable that Amy Klobuchar seems to gaining some momentum; she has pulled ahead of Harris into fifth in this poll, although she's far behind the top four.

Betomania seems over, it turns out he was not born for this. He's in ninth place, but the drop from eighth is quite dramatic when you look at the number of potential voters (those either putting him in first, second or at least considering) he can draw from.
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Old 24th October 2019, 11:25 AM   #1773
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Sometimes it hits me how far away both the primaries and the general election are away and I have to have a drink and a lay down.

Move to Florida, the weathers great... oh and you're in a swing county in a swing state.
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Old 24th October 2019, 11:28 AM   #1774
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sometimes it hits me how far away both the primaries and the general election are away and I have to have a drink and a lay down.

Move to Florida, the weathers great... oh and you're in a swing county in a swing state.
I've lived in CA and WA my whole life. I didn't fully appreciate what it was like in a swing state until I had an extended work engagement in Florida during the 2012 cycle. Wow!
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Old 24th October 2019, 11:31 AM   #1775
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Here's what Buttigieg's campaign learned from focus groups in South Carolina:

Quote:
While the report stated that Buttigieg’s sexuality was not a “disqualifier” for these voters, some of the focus group participants questioned why Buttigieg even brought it up.

“That’s not my thing but I wouldn’t want to know that as a candidate,” said one female participant under 40. “Too much information.”

“I’ll go ahead and say it,” said a male participant. “I don’t like the fact that he threw out there that he lives with his husband.”

That sounds like my mother. "I don't care if they're gay, but they don't need to talk about it." When I point out that she has no problem with men talking about their wives or girlfriends, or women talking about their husbands or boyfriends, she just says "That's different."
In other words, "Why can't they stay in the closet like the good old days?"
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Old 24th October 2019, 01:40 PM   #1776
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sometimes it hits me how far away both the primaries and the general election are away and I have to have a drink and a lay down.
102 days to Iowa. 110 days to New Hampshire. There's a short (11 days break) to Nevada, then a week before South Carolina, but California has moved up its primary to March 3, only 3 days after SC.
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Old 24th October 2019, 01:47 PM   #1777
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Many stories that Oprah is urging Disney boss Bob Iger to quit as CEO a year ahead of his scheduled retirement, and throw his hat into the ring for the Democratic nod.



NO,NO,JUST NO.

I am not saying Iger would be as bad as Trump, but I don't want ANY showbiz big shot with zero political experience in the Oval Office. I have had enough of that to last for a long time.
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Old 24th October 2019, 02:47 PM   #1778
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But then Oprah Winfrey has been trying for years to become some kind of Kingmaker in the Democratic party, but without much success.
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:10 PM   #1779
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Many stories that Oprah is urging Disney boss Bob Iger to quit as CEO a year ahead of his scheduled retirement, and throw his hat into the ring for the Democratic nod.



NO,NO,JUST NO.

I am not saying Iger would be as bad as Trump, but I don't want ANY showbiz big shot with zero political experience in the Oval Office. I have had enough of that to last for a long time.
It's not going to happen.
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:16 PM   #1780
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But then Oprah Winfrey has been trying for years to become some kind of Kingmaker in the Democratic party, but without much success.
Why doesn't she just use The Secret to make it happen?
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Old 24th October 2019, 04:48 PM   #1781
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Old 24th October 2019, 04:49 PM   #1782
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Beto can make himself useful by sticking to the Senate race.

Finish what you started against Ted Cruz.
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Old 24th October 2019, 04:55 PM   #1783
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I suspect both sides will have a fair amount of rallies in California, if only to raise the dough.
In my view that's not it works in California. There are so many bazllionaires out here that almost all fund raisers are invite-only events held in McMansions in Hollywood and Silicon Valley
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Old 24th October 2019, 04:56 PM   #1784
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why doesn't she just use The Secret to make it happen?
My theory is that she did use The Secret. But it's not actually a spell of blessing.
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Old 24th October 2019, 04:59 PM   #1785
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And framing can only work so far. Warren has gotten a lot of blowback over her refusal to admit that her plan would increase taxes on the middle class, even from a very sympathetic media.
How to pay for her plans is not a framing issue. How she presents her plan might be.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:03 PM   #1786
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To be fair, if he's president we'll all be "workers" in his administration. ; P
To be fair, no matter who wins, we'll all be "workers" in his administration. ; P
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:07 PM   #1787
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
In my view that's not it works in California. There are so many bazllionaires out here that almost all fund raisers are invite-only events held in McMansions in Hollywood and Silicon Valley

You get sick of reading about how some big movie star hosted a fund raiser stories at their Hollywood Mansion every election campaign.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:11 PM   #1788
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's not going to happen.
Of course not, it's just that every four years Ophra tries to play kingmaker in Democratic Party politics, and every four years she falls flat on her face.What makes this amusing is that Iger has shown no interest in running for public office whatsoever.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:21 PM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
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Who's the well spoken rational sounding guy King's interviewing?
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:31 PM   #1790
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
Who's the well spoken rational sounding guy King's interviewing?
Idk but they probably should have run him instead of George W. Bush.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:47 PM   #1791
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It is just when you think you are too smart to fall for a scam, that you are most likely to fall for a scam.
That's a meaningless cliché.

It depends totally on why/how you became educated to said scams/potential scams. There's no way educating yourself to potential scams and propaganda techniques makes you more susceptible because you are confident in your knowledge.
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Old 24th October 2019, 06:09 PM   #1792
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Of course not, it's just that every four years Ophra tries to play kingmaker in Democratic Party politics, and every four years she falls flat on her face.What makes this amusing is that Iger has shown no interest in running for public office whatsoever.
You might say she helped getting Barack elected.

I'm going out on a limb and say I think the nominee is going to be Warren or Mayor Pete. Both of whom are going to be difficult to elect. If Mayor Pete wasn't openly gay, I think he would be running away with it
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Old 24th October 2019, 06:20 PM   #1793
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
If Mayor Pete wasn't openly gay, I think he would be running away with it
Why? What's his appeal? He strikes me as Biden Junior. Bland personality, politics status quo in the worst ways. You'd think his being gay would make him more interesting but it doesn't; if anything "Mayor Pete" manages to make being gay boring.
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Old 24th October 2019, 06:40 PM   #1794
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why? What's his appeal? He strikes me as Biden Junior. Bland personality, politics status quo in the worst ways. You'd think his being gay would make him more interesting but it doesn't; if anything "Mayor Pete" manages to make being gay boring.
I'm ok with a bland super smart white guy with character and integrity. Especially one who is gay. The Nathan Lane character from The Birdcage is not going to fly. Obama was electable because he wasn't Jessie Jackson or someone who was stereotypically black.

Every time I've heard him speak he's demonstrated a superior grasp of the issues. He doesn't frighten anyone. He's not staging a revolution. It's a return to sanity and away from Crazy.

I like Warren's politics a lot more, but I strongly believe that Mayor Pete would be running away with the nomination and he would crush Trump. That is if he wasn't openly gay. My theory is that each President is a reaction to the last President. Boring is kind of appealing after 4 years of Mr. Whackadoodle.
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Old 24th October 2019, 07:12 PM   #1795
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm ok with a bland super smart white guy with character and integrity. Especially one who is gay. The Nathan Lane character from The Birdcage is not going to fly. Obama was electable because he wasn't Jessie Jackson or someone who was stereotypically black.

Every time I've heard him speak he's demonstrated a superior grasp of the issues. He doesn't frighten anyone. He's not staging a revolution. It's a return to sanity and away from Crazy.

I like Warren's politics a lot more, but I strongly believe that Mayor Pete would be running away with the nomination and he would crush Trump. That is if he wasn't openly gay. My theory is that each President is a reaction to the last President. Boring is kind of appealing after 4 years of Mr. Whackadoodle.
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Which is why running someone who will come off to many American s like a left wing Whackadoodle is a bad idea. A choice between 2 whackaddoles will favor Trump.
I think Warren could avoid that, but Bernie, never. He comes off like the eternal Sixites radical and seems unable or unwilling to get away from that image.
And please don't tell me he is not radical by European standards. This the US,not Europe, and European standards are meaningless in a US election.
I note that some of the Bernie Bros seem unable to grasp the Dems have to win the centrist/moderate voters in the swing state to win. They prefer to think there is a vast lost tribe of progressive voters out there that will magically appear if the right candidate comes along. Of course the lost tribe theory of voters has never worked out...…

Not sure about Mayor Pete having staying power. Let's see if his surge in the polls is real or just a fluke. Back in 2012 ,in the GOP race, you has a number of candidates who made a big noise in the polls for a few weeks, then sunk to irrevelancy.
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Old 24th October 2019, 07:42 PM   #1796
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Q
Which is why running someone who will come off to many American s like a left wing Whackadoodle is a bad idea. A choice between 2 whackaddoles will favor Trump.
I think Warren could avoid that, but Bernie, never. He comes off like the eternal Sixites radical and seems unable or unwilling to get away from that image.
And please don't tell me he is not radical by European standards. This the US,not Europe, and European standards are meaningless in a US election.
I note that some of the Bernie Bros seem unable to grasp the Dems have to win the centrist/moderate voters in the swing state to win. They prefer to think there is a vast lost tribe of progressive voters out there that will magically appear if the right candidate comes along. Of course the lost tribe theory of voters has never worked out...…

Not sure about Mayor Pete having staying power. Let's see if his surge in the polls is real or just a fluke. Back in 2012 ,in the GOP race, you has a number of candidates who made a big noise in the polls for a few weeks, then sunk to irrevelancy.
It's not a few weeks. He's been steadily rising in the polls right from the start. Warren really isn't that radical and even if she was, her positions would be watered down through the reality of what can get done. My problem with Bernie is 1. His age. 2. He just had a heart attack. 3. He reminds me too much of Larry David. I'm not a big fan of the idea of free education for anyone and everyone. What we really need to with education is make a fundamental change to how we approach it. I don't believe we should be encouraging everyone to get a traditional college degree. We need a more vocational approach to higher education. I'd also like a serious reform and oversight to "for profit" colleges. The exact opposite of what Trump and Devoss have been doing.

Bernie has some great ideas but, he makes a terrible candidate for the general IMV.
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Old 24th October 2019, 07:56 PM   #1797
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
How to pay for her plans is not a framing issue. How she presents her plan might be.
She keeps trying to frame it that middle class people will pay less in total between taxes and health insurance, which may be true for some people. But suppose your employer has been paying for your health insurance. Under Warren's plan is no longer an option, and your taxes will go up and your take-home pay will go down. No doubt almost all kind-hearted employers will give their employees a big raise since they aren't paying for their health insurance, but sadly corporate Scrooges do exist, even though they are extremely rare.
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Old 24th October 2019, 08:02 PM   #1798
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I note that some of the Bernie Bros seem unable to grasp the Dems have to win the centrist/moderate voters in the swing state to win. They prefer to think there is a vast lost tribe of progressive voters out there that will magically appear if the right candidate comes along. Of course the lost tribe theory of voters has never worked out...…
Are they centrist/moderate or independent? I mean those get tossed around quite frequently, but polls show Bernie Sanders having higher favorability than Trump in states like Iowa, within 2 percentage points, within the margin of error; on paper 51% to Warren and Biden's 49% in the Emerson poll, but it shows he's squarely in the same boat as the other "less radical" candidates.

Maybe in some places it's less about being "moderate" or centrist than being independent and open to different offers. Obama comes to mind. He rallied people around his progressive rhetoric winning states like Indiana and North Carolina. I can't imagine a centrist Democrat winning Indiana right now.
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Old 24th October 2019, 08:18 PM   #1799
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Are they centrist/moderate or independent? I mean those get tossed around quite frequently, but polls show Bernie Sanders having higher favorability than Trump in states like Iowa, within 2 percentage points, within the margin of error; on paper 51% to Warren and Biden's 49% in the Emerson poll, but it shows he's squarely in the same boat as the other "less radical" candidates.

Maybe in some places it's less about being "moderate" or centrist than being independent and open to different offers. Obama comes to mind. He rallied people around his progressive rhetoric winning states like Indiana and North Carolina. I can't imagine a centrist Democrat winning Indiana right now.
I hate to say this. But policy really takes a back seat to gut reactions towards the candidates for most voters. Ideas that are touted as "radical" can be overcome by a candidate who can sell them.
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Old 24th October 2019, 08:27 PM   #1800
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And please don't tell me he is not radical by European standards. This the US,not Europe, and European standards are meaningless in a US election.
He's not radical relative to what the American people want either. He's only "radical" in the dishonest smear-jobs flung at him by the corporatists, whose line you're repeating for them.
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