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Old 18th September 2019, 04:07 AM   #1
Scorpion
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Are the thought police a reality?

The British police have imported personality profiling from the FBI. The likes of John Douglas and his book ' Mind hunter' and his British counterparts like Professor David Canter with his book ' criminal shadows'. Also Paul Britton and his book ' Jigsaw man'
These men are clinical psychologists, not like doctors who have taken the Hippocratic oath to do no harm, then went on to study and become psychiatrists who spend their lives trying to help the mentally ill. Psychologists are another school who get degrees, then use their knowledge without scruples. It was nice of some of them to write books about their craft, and in doing so reveal the extent of their own egos and their failings. In fact Paul Britton says in his book he cannot afford to make mistakes as it could destroy some ones life. But he then went on to profile Colin Stagg who was accused of the Wimbledon common murder of Rachel Nickel based only on Britton's profile with no evidence. He devised a plan called the honey trap in which he tried to get Stagg to admit the murder to an undercover female police officer .He also showed his willingness to publish lurid details of the murder of Jamie Bulger who was killed by two ten year old boys. These details that I do not think were ever published in the newspapers because they are too horrible, are in his book plain to see for his poor mother to read. I hope to God she has not read it.
In the case of Colin Stagg, in spite of the fact he was psychologically manipulated and tormented one might say he was one of the lucky ones. Because in his case the murder he was suspected of was such a high profile case it was in all the papers and Stagg was eventually able to read about it, and the attempt to make him confess by Paul Britton.
In most cases the personality profiler remains anonymous, and is nothing but a shadowy figure protected from the consequences of his actions. In fact in most cases the subject of such manipulation would not even know a profiler had investigated them. Even if they suspected it they would have no evidence, and if they told anyone they thought someone was psychologically manipulating them they would most likely be regarded as delusional.
This uncertainty in itself is enough to permanently damage a persons mind, if it does not in fact drive them completely mad.
Professor David Canter said in a TV interview "the police are lumping everyone together under the one label of psychopath" He also said " the police may assume their own psychological sophistication and entrap innocent people"
Then there are the facial recognition cameras springing up everywhere that are reminiscent of George Orwell's big brother from his book 1984.

I think the question is not so much do the thought police exist, as how far do they go.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 18th September 2019 at 05:00 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:17 AM   #2
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http://hurryupharry.org/2019/01/25/t...lice-are-here/

https://www.telesurenglish.net/opini...0303-0012.html

https://www.binary.org.au/uk_police_...thought_police

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...nter-extremism
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 18th September 2019 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 18th September 2019, 05:39 AM   #3
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Smarter criminals demand smarter police with effective tactics. That said police of all skill levels have not done the job property for whatever reasons.

The police need all the effective techniques they can get just to stay nose above the waterline. Of course with as few abuses of use of them as possible.
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:26 AM   #4
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An article on Paul Britton the psychologist who sought to entrap Colin Stagg.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...n-1262637.html


The web site of Professor David Canter with info on profiling.

https://www.davidcanter.com/

An interview with John Douglas FBI agent and author of 'mindhunter'

http://collider.com/mindhunter-autho...las-interview/

Info on offender profiling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offender_profiling
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 19th September 2019 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #5
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Profiling offenders is a very useful tool in trapping them. And then to hopefully remove them from the society they hurt.

Does that seem useful to you Scorp?
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Old 19th September 2019, 11:55 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Profiling offenders is a very useful tool in trapping them. And then to hopefully remove them from the society they hurt.

Does that seem useful to you Scorp?
Its fine until they start entrapping innocent people like Colin Stagg who was profiled by Paul Britton and became the subject of devious attempts to make him confess to murder to an undercover police woman. He was almost driven to suicide.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 19th September 2019, 12:12 PM   #7
8enotto
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It isn't always used properly because we are human. We tend to put blame on those we dislike , especially if one of them was conveniently present. And sometimes he was the guilty party.

I know well what it is like to be under investigation. I had nothing to hide and no reason to change a thing. I let them follow me around until the cops got bored. I even sat with one undercover at a bar one night and chatted, he knew I knew his game.
They searched my place four times with a drug dog and never found drugs. Because there were none.

My accuser broke parole and went back to finish his sentence, the cops looked for fatter fish.

A mild irritation that lasted about a year, I knew the guy wasn't smart enough to stay out of jail long. Really no big deal.
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:11 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Its fine until they start entrapping innocent people like Colin Stagg who was profiled by Paul Britton and became the subject of devious attempts to make him confess to murder to an undercover police woman. He was almost driven to suicide.
I can give you several examples of police misconduct that has nothing to do with psychological profiling. Should we do away with the police altogether?

And here's an interesting twist. I live in a city that is the home of a "corporate" religion -- one run essentially like a medium-sized American corporation. They hire public relations firms to shape the messages they give in press conferences on social issues like LGBTQ acceptance and medical cannabis, usually to impose a conservative religious viewpoint. These firms rely heavily on behavioral profiling, because -- like it or not -- peoples' beliefs and behaviors really do fall into patterns that can be scientifically predicted and therefore manipulated. Clearly we should do away with religion too, right?
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Old 20th September 2019, 10:23 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I can give you several examples of police misconduct that has nothing to do with psychological profiling. Should we do away with the police altogether?

And here's an interesting twist. I live in a city that is the home of a "corporate" religion -- one run essentially like a medium-sized American corporation. They hire public relations firms to shape the messages they give in press conferences on social issues like LGBTQ acceptance and medical cannabis, usually to impose a conservative religious viewpoint. These firms rely heavily on behavioral profiling, because -- like it or not -- peoples' beliefs and behaviors really do fall into patterns that can be scientifically predicted and therefore manipulated. Clearly we should do away with religion too, right?
Yes.
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Old 20th September 2019, 11:03 AM   #10
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Jay is,

Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
Yes.
of course, talking about the Mormons.

Query: Is LDS any more corporate in nature than, say the Methodists or Presbyterians?

Query 1.0: Could we plausibly regard these big industrialized cults* as operating their own thought police? I realize that our modern usage of that term is somewhat looser than it once was, say in the case of the Kempetai in wartime Japan, but it's still a scarey idea -- it scares more rational people than Scorp, I think.

* I use "cult" in the neutral, anthropological sense, not as a pejorative for any religion we particularly don't like. Tickles me no end to see believers' bristles rise when I do that.
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Old 20th September 2019, 12:09 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Query: Is LDS any more corporate in nature than, say the Methodists or Presbyterians?
I would say yes. The church is literally a corporation, more so that the minimal presence other churches need to have in order to do business as entities in the modern world. Walk into its headquarters, and it looks every bit like a corporate headquarters. It has subsidiaries that dabble in such things as real estate development. Take this merely as my opinion as an outsider. It has all the look and feel of a business, not a religion.

I can compare them directly to the Roman Catholic cathedral just down the road from the temple, and the Episcopal cathedral just down the hill from that. While not worldwide headquarters, they are somewhat comparable in intent. The central presentation of these institutions is the ecclesiastical -- the chapels, etc. Sure there are business offices and logistical necessities. But they are tucked away out of sight. The leaders dress and act as clergy.

Quote:
Query 1.0: Could we plausibly regard these big industrialized cults* as operating their own thought police?
Sure. Their dominating influence on Utah politics is a running joke, but that's probably not quite what you were asking. If we define 'though police" as a group having a disproportional interest in what a larger body says and thinks, and a disproportionate effect over them, then entrenched religion qualifies in my opinion. We have to carefully differentiate between the church's effect on their members and the effect on the larger population. But in a population featuring a significant proportion, if not an outright majority, one is often indicative of the other.

But it's not my purpose here to bash Mormons and their corporate identity. What I wanted to do was to divorce the notion of behavioral profiling from the nature of the people who employ it. It would be easy to say "The police are corrupt, therefore the practices that they use are suspect." It would also be easy to say, "Behavioral profiling is unscientific and unfair, therefore anyone who uses it has suspicious motives." If you accept for the sake of argument that a church is holy and well-meaning, (pause for laughter) then what do you say about its use of behavioral patterns to enhance its effectiveness?

I think a reasonable person should be concerned about the treatment of Colin Stagg. Although the version of the story linked here was that told by his defense barrister, the extent to which the police were willing to distort the evidence in their favor seems alarming. But to what degree should we blame psychological profiling for that? If its purpose is simply to suggest a more effective application of ordinary investigative techniques, why should the glaring irregularities in the undercover work necessarily connect to the profiling work that initially targeted the individual?
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:35 PM   #12
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Well it's good to see that Scorpion didn't electrocute himself in his attempts to exorcise his aura demons or whatever. Welcome back, man.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:50 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I can give you several examples of police misconduct that has nothing to do with psychological profiling. Should we do away with the police altogether?

And here's an interesting twist. I live in a city that is the home of a "corporate" religion -- one run essentially like a medium-sized American corporation. They hire public relations firms to shape the messages they give in press conferences on social issues like LGBTQ acceptance and medical cannabis, usually to impose a conservative religious viewpoint. These firms rely heavily on behavioral profiling, because -- like it or not -- peoples' beliefs and behaviors really do fall into patterns that can be scientifically predicted and therefore manipulated. Clearly we should do away with religion too, right?
Offtopic: Clearly the answer is Yes.

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Old 20th September 2019, 10:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Well it's good to see that Scorpion didn't electrocute himself in his attempts to exorcise his aura demons or whatever. Welcome back, man.
I might have but my whimshurst machine was damaged in transit. I got a full refund, but that leaves me with a broken machine.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 21st September 2019, 04:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I might have but my whimshurst machine was damaged in transit. I got a full refund, but that leaves me with a broken machine.
If you got a full refund, then simply order another one.

Or use some of the refund to pay for a repair, that way you would be up on the deal.

I wonder what excuse you will invent for NOT following one of those courses of action?
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Old 21st September 2019, 05:39 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
If you got a full refund, then simply order another one.

Or use some of the refund to pay for a repair, that way you would be up on the deal.

I wonder what excuse you will invent for NOT following one of those courses of action?
I have already had a warning about taking this thread off topic. A chunk of this thread was sent to the 'abandon hope' forum. You may have noticed as one of your posts went with it. To answer that missing post of yours, I have said nothing about telepathy on this thread, I am simply trying to establish the police use and abuse psychology.

But since you asked about my machine, I will answer you.
The machine cannot be repaired as it needs a new disk and I asked for one but they did not send it, So I got a refund from amazon, and I hesitate to order another machine under those circumstances
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 21st September 2019 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 21st September 2019, 08:35 AM   #17
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"Thought police" is

the wrong term, Scorpion. Wiki the phrase (as I just did), and you'll learn that it goes back to Japan ca. 1911. I was mistaken in associating it with the Kempetai, who were military. It was a civilian police branch charged with finding enemies of the state.* Nothing to do with using any kind of profiling in the modern sense. Their methods were much more robust.

"Shiso Keisatsu" translates as "thought police." That's about it.

* It wasn't hard to qualify for that status. "Whatever is not forbidden is mandatory!"
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Old 21st September 2019, 08:44 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have already had a warning about taking this thread off topic. A chunk of this thread was sent to the 'abandon hope' forum. You may have noticed as one of your posts went with it. To answer that missing post of yours, I have said nothing about telepathy on this thread, I am simply trying to establish the police use and abuse psychology.

But since you asked about my machine, I will answer you.
The machine cannot be repaired as it needs a new disk and I asked for one but they did not send it, So I got a refund from amazon, and I hesitate to order another machine under those circumstances
Yay, you found an excuse out of nowhere. I must be psychic. After all, I predicted that you would do exactly that very thing, didn't I?

No, you are not off the evidential hook so easily.

Why exactly will you not order a replacement? Given a full refund, you have no cost ordering a replacement unit. But you won't. Why?

I know why, but do you?
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Old 21st September 2019, 10:32 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am simply trying to establish the police use and abuse psychology.
Then I repeat the essence of one of my prior posts.

You raised a noteworthy case of police misconduct in the UK. Very well, I can do the same for cases in the US and elsewhere. When this occurs, it is legitimately worrisome. I don't think you'll get much debate from others here over the notion that people who have the power to take away others' rights should be held to a high standard of accountability when exercising it. And I wager you'll agree that notion should hold regardless of the form the misconduct takes.

I'm looking at the role that offender profiling played in the case you cited. My understanding is that profiling cannot itself be evidence, and is never recommended as such. But it can be used to identify targets for further investigation that produces evidence admissible in court. It appears the police in this case, after having identified a suspect, performed an investigation using ordinary evidence-gathering methods. The misconduct in the case appears not to be that profiling was used, but that the investigators' belief in the guilt of the accused led them to apply their ordinary evidence-gathering methods to an inappropriate extent and to interpret evidence in a manner contrary to its plain meaning. You used the word entrapment, but it's not clear to me that's what happened.

So one question we should ask is to what degree it matters why the police were tempted to frame an innocent person. If framing is immoral on its face, then we don't necessarily need to delve into the reason why it happened. And I agree it is immoral for a prosecution to argue that evidence means one thing when it clearly meant another. But I don't see that the connection to profiling is very robust.

Alternatively we can question the morality of offender profiling. As I said, the entire practice of marketing is based on the evident principle that people really do behave according to type. This can be harnessed to get people to believe or do things they might not otherwise do. If you hold that offender profiling is per se immoral, then how should we treat those who employ similar principles while having ostensibly honorable motives, like churches? If it is not per se immoral, then does there exist an honorable way to employ it in law enforcement?

A third question is whether offender profiling is valid and effective for what it claims to be, as part of a larger argument about whether it's moral to hold someone legally liable on the basis of inferential evidence that is not scientifically proven . Your arguments in other threads suggest this question might be something of a minefield for you.

Then we have the denouement of what you mean by "thought police." I'm guessing you intend the Orwellian literary reference, not the historical Japanese one. Winston Smith and others were detected via a false-flag operation. Are you arguing that all undercover police work ought to be disallowed as entrapment? Are you arguing that criminals are merely social nonconformists or political dissidents?

You emphasize that criminal psychologists do not take the Hippocratic Oath. Since they are not in clinical practice, can you give a good reason why they should be so charged? They are not diagnosing or treating illness. They are simply using whatever knowledge they can acquire regarding the psychology of criminal behavior to help detect crime. And as with all other means employed toward that end, it has its limits. Is it your argument that all such psychology should be disallowed as part of law enforcement? Your disdain for psychologists and psychology hardly needs any more emphasis than you have already given it. But is there any intellectual meat to this thread? Or is it merely another thread where you rail against psychologists according to some reason du jour?
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Old 21st September 2019, 11:50 AM   #20
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Jay Utah Thanks for taking the trouble to write all that. It may take me a while to answer all the points you make. I will break it up into several posts.
As far as I recall there was no evidence against Colin Stagg except he was on Wimbledon common. Paul Britton said it was unlikely there would be two people with the personality of Stagg on the common at the time of the murder. That was all they had on him, there was no evidence, only a personality profile.
Paul Britton said in his book he had to be right about someone or he might destroy an innocent person. He then went on to do exactly that in Colin Staggs case.

I do not think the police tried to frame Stagg, but they definitely tried to entrap him into making a confession to an undercover police woman. She tried to lure him into making a confession by making him believe she would be sexually attracted to him if he said he had done the murder. There is not much morality about that.

More to come
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 21st September 2019 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 21st September 2019, 12:59 PM   #21
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As far as I recall there was no evidence against Colin Stagg except he was on Wimbledon common. Paul Britton said it was unlikely there would be two people with the personality of Stagg on the common at the time of the murder. That was all they had on him, there was no evidence, only a personality profile.
Yes, and that's all a behavioral profile is expected to provide. It is not evidence per se, but it can be used to focus efforts to collect evidence in the normal way. Those efforts took the form of an undercover operation in Stagg's case. Because of errors made in that operation, it was ultimately deemed inadmissible by the court. You haven't shown how behavioral profiling was used here inconsistently with its purported basis.

I don't have Britton's statistical argument before me, but it seems reasonable on its face. That doesn't mean it's correct. We have taken it as read that the police acted improperly in the Stagg case. But what exactly was improper bears additional scrutiny given the far-flung accusations you've leveled. The unwillingness of the police to develop admissible evidence for any suspect other than Stagg seems to be an error.

Quote:
Paul Britton said in his book he had to be right about someone or he might destroy an innocent person. He then went on to do exactly that in Colin Staggs case.
But you accuse him and others of being unscrupulous. Right there in the book is the evidence of his scruples. His behavior, while disastrous for Stagg, can be just as easily explained by reasonable trust in his method that later came to be undermined by evidence. People who cause harm by making reasonable mistakes are not per se unscrupulous. And they are held accountable in this case by losing in court.

Quote:
I do not think the police tried to frame Stagg, but they definitely tried to entrap him into making a confession to an undercover police woman.
I'm still not convinced that's entrapment. Entrapment is a defense to a criminal charge in which the actions of the accused are not materially in question as to whether he performed them. The defense argues essentially that the accused would not have undertaken those actions but for the enticement of the police. If the defense is instead that the accused did not perform the acts accused of, entrapment seems precluded. While I will naturally defer to the opinion of an expert in UK criminal law on this point, I don't believe that entering a suspect's confidence with the goal of soliciting a confession from them, if possible, is either entrapment or any other form of misconduct.

As to framing Stagg, what i probably meant to say was that the police railroaded him. They had reason to believe he was guilty, but erred in developing admissible evidence of his guilt.

Quote:
She tried to lure him into making a confession by making him believe she would be sexually attracted to him if he said he had done the murder. There is not much morality about that.
And for that reason the testimony was disallowed in court and the accused was set free. There is a limit to how much coercion and enticement are allowed while trying to solicit a confession, and these days there must still be other evidence of guilt.

None of that has anything to do with the prior point of psychological profiling. It doesn't matter how Stagg came under suspicion if the actions of the police in following up on those suspicions were overly tenacious and therefore disallowed. My line of questioning above was meant to help you see this.

Quote:
More to come
Please address my actual questions to you. Don't just keep reciting the facts of the case.

Last edited by JayUtah; 21st September 2019 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 21st September 2019, 01:15 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Alternatively we can question the morality of offender profiling. As I said, the entire practice of marketing is based on the evident principle that people really do behave according to type. This can be harnessed to get people to believe or do things they might not otherwise do. If you hold that offender profiling is per se immoral, then how should we treat those who employ similar principles while having ostensibly honorable motives, like churches? If it is not per se immoral, then does there exist an honorable way to employ it in law enforcement?
I think, if personality profiling is used destructively by any agency it is morally wrong, and the persons responsible should be held accountable. However in the case of the police it is very difficult for anyone who is a victim of profiling to do anything about it. The police do not inform the subject that they have been profiled. The person who has been investigated and labeled will probably never even know it has been done. But they may feel the effects in their life.
The police may question a subjects employers or landlords about them, and in doing so vilify the person in those peoples eyes. Thus exposing them to loosing their jobs and accommodation with no real reason given. The employers and landlords are not going to tell someone they have been investigated, they are just going to make some excuse to get rid of them.

The profilers who work with the police answer to no one, and doubtlessly think they are above the law. What is more they are probably right, as the police are not likely to admit liability in damaging a persons life. What is more nobody that knows about it is likely to help the victim of profiling against the police, as nobody needs that kind of trouble.

I think the answer to your question is profiling should only be conducted by someone of high integrity, who would not resort to devious and damaging manipulation.
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Old 21st September 2019, 01:23 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I think, if personality profiling is used destructively by any agency it is morally wrong, and the persons responsible should be held accountable.
Agreed. But as I pointed out in my first question, everything you argue applies to all forms of police misconduct. There is nothing about your argument that justifies singling out behavioral profiling as you have done.
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Old 21st September 2019, 01:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The profilers who work with the police answer to no one...
No evidence of this claim has been provided. Did Britton not answer for his conduct by losing in court against Stagg?

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...and doubtlessly think they are above the law.
Do you purport to have evidence of what behavioral profiler's privately think?

Again, the bottom-line question here is whether you have any legitimate argument for this thread that's supported by evidence and sound reasoning, or whether you're just expressing for the umpteenth time your distaste for psychology.
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Old 21st September 2019, 01:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No evidence of this claim has been provided. Did Britton not answer for his conduct by losing in court against Stagg?
Yes, he was caught out because the case was high profile in the press.
Normally I think profilers activities pass unnoticed.

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Do you purport to have evidence of what behavioral profiler's privately think?
Yes, I have a copy of Paul Britton's book, 'jigsaw man' also a copy of Professor David Canters book ' criminal shadows'

I have also read the book 'mind hunter' by John Douglas FBI. But I don't have a copy because I got it from the library.

Like I said in the OP it was nice of the profilers to profile themselves and their hubris by writing their books.
John Douglas said he was callously indifferent when his wife cut herself, and remarked that the blood splatter was how they worked out what happened at crime scenes. As far as I remember he was just as indifferent when his son fell off his bike. With the consequence his wife left him and took the children.
Paul Britton said something to the effect that the work he did might make him insensitive. I can tell him from reading his book that it already has.
Just taking time out to answer the last post, because I am still working on your earlier post.
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
A third question is whether offender profiling is valid and effective for what it claims to be, as part of a larger argument about whether it's moral to hold someone legally liable on the basis of inferential evidence that is not scientifically proven . Your arguments in other threads suggest this question might be something of a minefield for you.
Personality profiling has been criticised as un scientific. If it is then used by the police themselves, they are not qualified to make sound judgements. Professor Canter said " The police may assume their own psychological sophistication and entrap innocent people"
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:22 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yes, he was caught out because the case was high profile in the press.
So the mechanisms of society are performed adequately in holding him to account.

Quote:
Normally I think profilers activities pass unnoticed.
What is your evidence for this? And if they do not have a measurable effect, then how can they be so dangerous as you purport them to be?

Quote:
Yes, I have a copy of Paul Britton's book...
Then quote the passage where he says he believes himself to be above the law.

Quote:
I have also read the book 'mind hunter' by John Douglas FBI. But I don't have a copy because I got it from the library.
Did that book contain a passage wherein the author says he believes himself to be above the law?

Quote:
Like I said in the OP it was nice of the profilers to profile themselves and their hubris by writing their books.
Publishing a book is not per se evidence of hubris. And you've provided no evidence from the books that reveal hubris on the part of their respective authors. In fact, the passage you quoted brom Britton expresses that he understood he had a responsibility not to accuse innocent people. Reconcile that with your claim of their hubris.

Again, you seem long on supposition and short on evidence. Is this thread a reasoned discussion of appropriate actions for police to take while investigating? Or is it just another "Scorpion hates psychologists" thread?
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:36 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Personality profiling has been criticised as un scientific.
So has nearly every bit of forensic science used to date, with the possible exception of DNA identification. Why single out behavioral profiling?

I agree in general that any means used in court to infer liability should be scientifically valid. Would it be legally appropriate for someone to accuse another in court of telepathically tormenting them if they had no scientifically valid evidence that telepathy existed and could be used that way? But then again, I understand the profiles themselves are not given as evidence in court. The methods that the police use to decide where to look for evidence do not have to be scientific. They can include such unscientific things as hunches or lucky guesses.

And again, this problem extends in jurisprudence far beyond behavioral profiling. Why the special interest and special excoriation?

Quote:
If it is then used by the police themselves, they are not qualified to make sound judgements. Professor Canter said " The police may assume their own psychological sophistication and entrap innocent people"
Any science employed by unqualified people risks being misused and misinterpreted. But you concede that the people doing these profiles are psychologists, not the police themselves. Do you have any evidence that the psychologists who write these profiles are unqualified to do so? Or a better way to ask the question would be, do you concede that among all people, psychologists are the most qualified to profile according to behavior, insofar as any such qualification exists?

Further, the only judgment the police make on the basis of a behavioral profile is how to proceed with the normal methods of obtaining information. And in Stagg's case, the problem with the prosecution was not that Stagg had been profiled, but that inappropriate methods were used to attempt to obtain a confession. You still haven't made the connection you assert is so important.
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:36 PM   #29
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Jay Utah, I edited the post you just quoted while you were commenting on it. I do not think any profiler would actually state they are above the law, but that seems to be how they behave. I added some details of what I remembered them saying in their books.

I would need to refer to the books to get more details, as its some years since I read them, but my impression of them was they think the sun shines out of their a**.
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
...but that seems to be how they behave.
In your opinion.

Quote:
...but my impression of them was they think the sun shines out of their a**.
A judgment you fail to reconcile with their actual statements. Again, what would convince the reader that this is not just another "I hate psychologists!" thread?
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:46 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
John Douglas said he was callously indifferent when his wife cut herself, and remarked that the blood splatter was how they worked out what happened at crime scenes.
Yes, this phenomenon is common among first responders and those who deal with the aftermath of crime and disaster. It is reasonably understood in psychology.

Quote:
Paul Britton said something to the effect that the work he did might make him insensitive. I can tell him from reading his book that it already has.
Again, to be expected as an occupational hazard. However, your specific claim was that these authors consider themselves above the law, which is not at all the same thing as desensitization to calamity. You have provided no evidence to support your prior claim, and you have not withdrawn it. Instead you reverted the claim to say that you believe this is what they think, but that they would never say as much.

So we're back to you pretending you know how these other people think. Isn't this just you attempting to profile them?
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:48 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
A judgment you fail to reconcile with their actual statements. Again, what would convince the reader that this is not just another "I hate psychologists!" thread?
I am not fond of psychologists. They can be found in all walks of life trying to manipulate people. For example they get highly paid to advise on advertising strategies.

At least psychiatrists are doctors who are trying to help people.
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:51 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post

So we're back to you pretending you know how these other people think. Isn't this just you attempting to profile them?
I already developed a view of them from reading their books, but I will check through Paul Britton's book tomorrow, to try and find some examples of his thinking. In my view he has profiled himself.
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not fond of psychologists. They can be found in all walks of life trying to manipulate people. For example they get highly paid to advise on advertising strategies.

At least psychiatrists are doctors who are trying to help people.
So this is another "I hate psychologists" thread, then.
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:55 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I already developed a view of them from reading their books, but I will check through Paul Britton's book tomorrow, to try and find some examples of his thinking. In my view he has profiled himself.
I'm not asking you to glean his general thinking from his book. That's the purpose of a book. I am especially not interested in having you recite large irrelevant swathes of it instead of participating in my line of questioning. Unless your passages from the book contain evidence that he considers himself above the law, as you claimed, any excerpts you post will go unread and unresponded.

You specifically claimed that he and his colleagues consider themselves above the law. You concede that no such statement is likely to be found in his book, and that the claim is actually your impression. Your opinion is not evidence, and I don't wish to hear any more of your opinion when it's evidence I'm asking for.

You are unable to support this specific claim with evidence, and you concede that the evidence is not likely to exist. Yet you do not withdraw the claim. I'll leave you to bask in the irony of your having done this in a thread where you propose that people should make accusations only on the basis of defensible evidence.

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Old 21st September 2019, 03:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
They can be found in all walks of life trying to manipulate people. For example they get highly paid to advise on advertising strategies.
What's immoral about advertising? Do you object to them getting paid for it? Do you object to them being good at it? Do you object to the morality per se of any attempt to influence behavior? Should all attempts to influence belief or behavior be dismissed as immoral?
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:10 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
What's immoral about advertising? Do you object to them getting paid for it? Do you object to them being good at it? Do you object to the morality per se of any attempt to influence behavior? Should all attempts to influence belief or behavior be dismissed as immoral?
Advertising is an attempt to manipulate people into parting with their hard earned money.
Advertisers pay high wages to Psychologists because it pays to do so.
They obviously would not do it if they were not paid, so its pointless to object.
They are using psychology to control and manipulate people for monetary gain , and I find this distasteful.
It depends on what the attempts to influence belief or behaviour is trying to achieve. Psychiatrists attempt to influence patients for their well being.
But many psychologists busy themselves capitalising on their skills.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:22 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Advertising is an attempt to manipulate people into parting with their hard earned money.
Advertisers pay high wages to Psychologists because it pays to do so.
They obviously would not do it if they were not paid, so its pointless to object.
They are using psychology to control and manipulate people for monetary gain , and I find this distasteful.
It depends on what the attempts to influence belief or behaviour is trying to achieve. Psychiatrists attempt to influence patients for their well being.
But many psychologists busy themselves capitalising on their skills.
Psychiatrists are not exempt from selling their skills, and are likely more sought after than Psychologists, what with all that higher education and all.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:25 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Advertising is an attempt to manipulate people into parting with their hard earned money.
But they get something in return -- the advertised product or service. How is that immoral?

Quote:
Advertisers pay high wages to Psychologists because it pays to do so.
They obviously would not do it if they were not paid, so its pointless to object.
They are using psychology to control and manipulate people for monetary gain , and I find this distasteful.
So advertising is immoral because it employs psychologists. And psychologists are bad because they do such immoral things as advertising.

Got it. Nothing more than "I hate psychologists." Nothing more to see here.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:29 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Psychiatrists are not exempt from selling their skills, and are likely more sought after than Psychologists, what with all that higher education and all.
And psychologists are not exempt from entering clinical practice and helping patients overcome difficulties. We've pared his argument down to "psychiatry good, psychology bad."
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