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Old 30th January 2021, 03:10 AM   #3481
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
Weirdly something like that just happened to me. I ordered a book from a UK company with a subsidiary in Australia. It didn’t turn up so I asked what was going on - “customs delays due to Brexit”. It came a few days later... posted from Oz.
Yeah but the parcels go through the same customs offices who will now be overloaded as their workload has increased 5 fold or 10 fold or whatever. The customs offices are backed up so any parcel in or out will have to just wait in line.
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Old 30th January 2021, 03:19 AM   #3482
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The thing is this is a phantasm. The drug companies are ONLY selling to governments at present. Unless there is black market diversion this is never going to be an issue. This is purely to make a point. The only group that could divert supplies would be the Irish government.
If it's not happening why would anyone care that the EU takes steps to prevent something that isn't happening and would never happen anyway?

Arlene Foster can get her knickers in a twist if she wants but she might do well to remember she was the one who wanted NI to leave the EU.
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Old 30th January 2021, 03:39 AM   #3483
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yeah but the parcels go through the same customs offices who will now be overloaded as their workload has increased 5 fold or 10 fold or whatever. The customs offices are backed up so any parcel in or out will have to just wait in line.
I note Amazon has just built a centre in Dublin in order to avoid <ahem> post-Brexit issues.

https://twitter.com/reesmarx/status/...221879810?s=20

Quote:
#Amazon customers living in #Ireland will not have to worry about the impact of #Brexit. #Amazon is almost done building its first #Irish fulfilment centre (FBA) in #Baldonnell, west of #Dublin.

Good news for #ecommerce businesses!
Their turnover has increased amazingly as a result of all the lockdowns yet - like many platforms and MNC's - they are masters at paying as little tax as possible in the countries in which they operate.
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Old 30th January 2021, 04:57 AM   #3484
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
IMV there is something off about Pascal Soriot, CEO of AstraZeneca.
Read the full interview in La Republica, which gives more depth on the issues:

https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/20...nes-284349628/

Somehow the EU has convinced itself that there is something shady going on, but no specific claims have been made.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:00 AM   #3485
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If it's not happening why would anyone care that the EU takes steps to prevent something that isn't happening and would never happen anyway?
Because the justification for invoking Article 16 was rather thin, and the EU did not follow the requirements in the NI Protocol for notification and discussion.

Just about everyone in Ireland North and South sees this as a Bad Thing.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:18 AM   #3486
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If it's not happening why would anyone care that the EU takes steps to prevent something that isn't happening and would never happen anyway?

Arlene Foster can get her knickers in a twist if she wants but she might do well to remember she was the one who wanted NI to leave the EU.
Indeed, bollocks to Brexit, but that doesn't mean the EU didn't behave like dicks here. They did, and it isn't only Arlene Foster getting her knickers in a twist.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:28 AM   #3487
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There's allegation that British government is mandating Astra Zeneca to prioritize UK regardless of contractual obligation including contract with EU.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:36 AM   #3488
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Well, the UK paid a lot more for their doses so they probably think it's fair they get first pick.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:37 AM   #3489
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
There's allegation that British government is mandating Astra Zeneca to prioritize UK regardless of contractual obligation including contract with EU.
This is the thing. I haven't heard anyone say it. So, why not actually produce the evidence? The investigators have gone in; have they said what they have found? What is supposed to have happened here?
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:41 AM   #3490
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, the UK paid a lot more for their doses so they probably think it's fair they get first pick.
They being Astra Zeneca or the UK?
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:44 AM   #3491
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Because the justification for invoking Article 16 was rather thin, and the EU did not follow the requirements in the NI Protocol for notification and discussion.

Just about everyone in Ireland North and South sees this as a Bad Thing.
Was it a bad thing when the DUP were urging Boris to do it a couple of weeks ago and he was saying he wouldn't hesitate?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-39964412.html
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:46 AM   #3492
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Was it a bad thing when the DUP were urging Boris to do it a couple of weeks ago and he was saying he wouldn't hesitate?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-39964412.html
Indeed. It is a bad thing.
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Old 30th January 2021, 05:49 AM   #3493
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Indeed, bollocks to Brexit, but that doesn't mean the EU didn't behave like dicks here.
Quite possibly. And the fact they reversed the decision probably means they agree with that. It just seems odd to claim simultaneously that the decision doesn't do anything, and yet is awful.

Quote:
They did, and it isn't only Arlene Foster getting her knickers in a twist.
No but she one of the ones quoted which is ironic when as I mention above her party was pushing Boris to do it weeks ago. And are partly responsible for the whole fecking shebang in the first place.
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Old 30th January 2021, 06:36 AM   #3494
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yeah but the parcels go through the same customs offices who will now be overloaded as their workload has increased 5 fold or 10 fold or whatever. The customs offices are backed up so any parcel in or out will have to just wait in line.
Australia to Malaysia shouldn’t have any customs problems due to Brexit, though. Covid, maybe. I think the company just used it as an excuse.

I do feel very sorry for my former colleagues in HMRC though. I had the pleasure of being in the intake of new customs officers in 2017, but as I had policy making and EU experience I got to work on Brexit negotiations after just 2 months. Then I emigrated. My colleagues not so lucky, and having a very busy time, at least those few that didn’t leave.
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Old 30th January 2021, 06:42 AM   #3495
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
Australia to Malaysia shouldn’t have any customs problems due to Brexit, though. Covid, maybe. I think the company just used it as an excuse.

I do feel very sorry for my former colleagues in HMRC though. I had the pleasure of being in the intake of new customs officers in 2017, but as I had policy making and EU experience I got to work on Brexit negotiations after just 2 months. Then I emigrated. My colleagues not so lucky, and having a very busy time, at least those few that didn’t leave.
The UK does seem to have taken the opportunity of Brexit to put in new rules for everyone so I wonder if that's played a part in other parts of the world as well?
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Old 30th January 2021, 11:40 AM   #3496
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UK firms plan to shift across Channel after Brexit chaos

Quote:
Hundreds of UK companies could switch operations to countries inside the EU in what is threatening to become a dramatic exodus of investment and jobs caused by Brexit.

The Observer can reveal that by 1 January this year some 500 businesses – mostly UK-owned, or UK-based with overseas owners – were already making inquiries about setting up branches, depots or warehouses in the Netherlands alone, for “Brexit-related reasons”. Since then the number of inquiries from UK companies has increased further.

If companies switch all or parts of their operations to Europe it will mean the loss of jobs, economic activity and tax revenue at home.

The figures have been compiled by government unit the Netherlands Foreign Investment Agency, , which said that while most of the firms were already based in the UK, a minority were new companies from the US and Asia which had investigated a UK move, but had decided against investing here because of Brexit.
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Old 30th January 2021, 11:58 AM   #3497
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, the UK paid a lot more for their doses so they probably think it's fair they get first pick.
You sure about that? Contract between EU and AZ is for 870m€, 2/3 payable in advance.
Link to s cap.

I can't find how much is UK paying per dose. (EU is paying 1,78€ per dose according to Belgian gov)

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is the thing. I haven't heard anyone say it. So, why not actually produce the evidence? The investigators have gone in; have they said what they have found? What is supposed to have happened here?
How about:
Covid: EU-AstraZeneca disputed vaccine contract made public
Quote:
EU officials say AstraZeneca has been asked to send some doses manufactured in the UK to the continent to make up the shortfall, but the company said on Wednesday that its contract for UK supplies prevented this.
And maybe you brits need to be more careful...
UK restricts COVID medicine exports amid AstraZeneca vaccine fight
Quote:
Yet, while Johnson hit out at the EU for weighing export controls on vaccines, the British government itself has a list of 174 medicines that are currently banned from export from the U.K., because they “are needed for UK patients.” Additions to the list in 2020 included around 100 medicines that have been suggested as possible treatments for COVID-19 patients or are being used to alleviate symptoms of COVID-19 patients in intensive care units.
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:04 PM   #3498
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is the thing. I haven't heard anyone say it. So, why not actually produce the evidence? The investigators have gone in; have they said what they have found? What is supposed to have happened here?
The news reports have said that it would be several days before the results of the 'raid' would be fully assessed.
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:11 PM   #3499
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, the UK paid a lot more for their doses so they probably think it's fair they get first pick.
No, that is not the issue. The issue is EU suspect AZ is diverting what were designated EU supplies to the UK. Soriot claims the shortage is due to 'production problems'. The EU sent along officials to the factory in Belgium to check out this claim for themselves. The results are not yet known but late yesterday evening the EU slapped the UK with Article 16.

Thanks to angry phone calls from the Irish and the British PM, the EU retracted this but the threat is still there in its revised statement.

The only people saying EU boobed are Dominic Raab, Laura Kuennsberg for the BBC and Robert Peston. It's all hype. I don't believe the EU 'made a mistake' at all as this was all carefully drawn up by their official bods.

I expect we'll hear further developments after the weekend.
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Old 30th January 2021, 08:26 PM   #3500
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Was it a bad thing when the DUP were urging Boris to do it a couple of weeks ago and he was saying he wouldn't hesitate?

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-39964412.html


Uhh, that's quite a misrepresentation. What actually happened was that the DUP sought - and received - an assurance from the PM that the UK would invoke Art.16 if things got sufficiently bad as to warrant it.

The DUP wasn't "urging Boris to (invoke Art.15)". The entire request and assurance was predicated on some hypothetical future situation if/when the conditions that Art.16 was designed to address ever came to pass.

By contrast, the EU's disastrous, ill-conceived and politically-damaging intention to invoke Art.16 was under circumstances which came nowhere near even approaching the type of situation which Art.16 was designed to handle.


(BTW I voted Remain and wish we'd remained within the EU - but at the same time, I believe(d) it was clear that there were significant institutional problems and failings within the structure/operation of the EU, EC, Council of Ministers etc. And I have no problem whatsoever concluding - based on the available reliable evidence - that the European Commission behaved disgracefully and probably unlawfully in its now-abandoned intentions wrt the AstraZeneca issue. Because it did.)
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:46 AM   #3501
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I voted remain with no vote. Thought experiment.
It now seems certain Brexit is saving British lives, the law of unintended consequences.
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Old 31st January 2021, 02:05 AM   #3502
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I voted remain with no vote. Thought experiment.
It now seems certain Brexit is saving British lives, the law of unintended consequences.
How?
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Old 31st January 2021, 03:09 AM   #3503
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
There's allegation that British government is mandating Astra Zeneca to prioritize UK regardless of contractual obligation including contract with EU.
EU has a contract with AZ Sweden, which I assume is the holding company for EU operations. The EU prioritised price per dose and production in the EU.

I suspect UK has a contract with AZ plc the overall owner of the group. The UK paid for setting up UK production facilities as AZ did not have any in the UK. A smart biotech venture capitalist would have made sure that they got priority use of any new facilities they were funding.
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Old 31st January 2021, 03:18 AM   #3504
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Uhh, that's quite a misrepresentation. What actually happened was that the DUP sought - and received - an assurance from the PM that the UK would invoke Art.16 if things got sufficiently bad as to warrant it.

The DUP wasn't "urging Boris to (invoke Art.15)". The entire request and assurance was predicated on some hypothetical future situation if/when the conditions that Art.16 was designed to address ever came to pass.
Unless you have other information that I don't have then it is clear from the quotes in the article that the DUP man was asking Boris to invoke Article 16 to address the situation as it stood.

Quote:
"So what I and the people of Northern Ireland need to know from the Prime Minister, the leader of the United Kingdom, is what his government is going to do to ensure this - will he consider invoking Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol to resolve these issues?
If there is misrepresentation then it's therefore in selective quoting by the newspaper but I haven't seen anywhere that provides the alternative narrative that you suggest.

Boris's reply may have been the typical non-answer but he was quite clear that if he thought the situation warranted it then he would do it. So the DUP thought the situation warranted it and obviously the Government didn't.

So the DUP on this one, as usual, are talking out of both cheeks of their backside.
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Old 31st January 2021, 03:31 AM   #3505
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
EU has a contract with AZ Sweden, which I assume is the holding company for EU operations. The EU prioritised price per dose and production in the EU.
Production in the EU in the contract also includes the UK though

Quote:
I suspect UK has a contract with AZ plc the overall owner of the group. The UK paid for setting up UK production facilities as AZ did not have any in the UK. A smart biotech venture capitalist would have made sure that they got priority use of any new facilities they were funding.
I thought the AZ factories in UK were EU funded also?

I'm not sure how many smart biotech venture capitalists were involved in the whole process but it looks like AZ have promised priority to both the EU and the UK or at least overpromised what they can deliver to both and are now robbing Peter to pay Paul (probably in both directions) and there is also the question as to whether EU production is being exported to other places.

It's a pity that time and energy is being wasted on a political bunfight rather than all parties co-operating to achieve the best outcome but the 'England First' loons have taken over the asylum what more can we expect?
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Old 31st January 2021, 05:22 AM   #3506
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'm not sure how many smart biotech venture capitalists were involved in the whole process
Look at Kate Bingham's CV.


Quote:
but it looks like AZ have promised priority to both the EU and the UK or at least overpromised what they can deliver to both
No they have not promised priority to both, and I'm not convinced the EU contract promises anything from the UK - to me it looks as as "may use UK facilities", not "must use" and I think AZ understand their group structure.

They did not overpromise - the schedule was "reasonable endeavours" not a promise. The EU should have investigated further when they saw delays in UK production; and should have been asking for weekly updates from then on. They were too late to sign the contract and seem not to have managed it well since.

Quote:
I thought the AZ factories in UK were EU funded also?
Why?

IIRC there's a specific clause which talks about setting up more production facilities in the EU if there are more delays. I simply can't see the EU investing in UK facilities given Brexit.

Quote:
It's a pity that time and energy is being wasted on a political bunfight rather than all parties co-operating to achieve the best outcome but the 'England First' loons have taken over the asylum what more can we expect?
Nothing at all to do with the EU's vaccine problems - they also have delays with other vaccines.

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Old 31st January 2021, 05:58 AM   #3507
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
No they have not promised priority to both, and I'm not convinced the EU contract promises anything from the UK - to me it looks as as "may use UK facilities", not "must use" and I think AZ understand their group structure.

They did not overpromise - the schedule was "reasonable endeavours" not a promise. The EU should have investigated further when they saw delays in UK production; and should have been asking for weekly updates from then on. They were too late to sign the contract and seem not to have managed it well since.
If I remember rightly it's not 'reasonable endeavours' but 'best reasonable endeavours' and by definition you can't be making best endeavours to fulfil 1 contract if you are prioritising another one. I don't think we have seen the UK contract yet and it's entirely possible that they have the same wording or that if they have stronger wording then you can argue that's not fulfiling the wording of the EU contract.

The EU contract promises UK supply to the EU in so much as you consider diverting UK production a 'reasonable best endeavour' which to me it would seem to be. The sticking point being that they also have a UK contract to fulfil. In the fact that they have signed 2 contracts with 2 entities and are unable to deliver then they have overpromised both parties. if they fulfil the EU contract they can't fulfil the UK one (presumably) and vice versa.

Management of the issue isn't really here nor there in terms of determining whether AZ are meeting their contractual obligations.

Quote:
Why?
I'm fairly sure I read it an article that the EU had partially funded the Welsh facility. But I can't find it now. I could be wrong on that but it's just my remembering

Quote:
IIRC there's a specific clause which talks about setting up more production facilities in the EU if there are more delays. I simply can't see the EU investing in UK facilities given Brexit.
The clause I was referring to though specifically identifies the UK as part of the EU for the purposes of prioritising production. My reading of it isn't that it says the UK production belongs to the EU but rather in terms of prioritising production the UK production should be considered on a par with EU production. In other words it's perfectly acceptable for AZ to substitute Belgian production with UK production in order to fulfil the contract.

Whether they HAVE to comes back to 'best reasonable endeavours'. IMO if there is a priority for UK contracts then this should have been disclosed to the EU at the time of the contract being agreed as it clearly limits their 'best endeavours' but I am not a lawyer.

Quote:
Nothing at all to do with the EU's vaccine problems - they also have delays with other vaccines.
But very much to do with the political wrangling. Rather than having 3 entities co-operating on a solution we have 3 entities battling for their own interests. and of course had the UK been part of the EU then the situation wouldn't exist.
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Old 31st January 2021, 06:22 AM   #3508
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I thought the AZ factories in UK were EU funded also?
My understanding is that the EU did indeed invest a lot of money into the vaccine.

Yes, it is unfortunate that the EU dialed the dispute up to 11, but now I think everyone involved should calm down and figure out the best way forward. Platitudinous? Yes, but so be it.
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Old 31st January 2021, 08:04 AM   #3509
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Old 31st January 2021, 10:09 AM   #3510
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
My understanding is that the EU did indeed invest a lot of money into the vaccine.

Yes, it is unfortunate that the EU dialed the dispute up to 11, but now I think everyone involved should calm down and figure out the best way forward. Platitudinous? Yes, but so be it.
The development of vaccine manufacturing capacity in the UK was UK funded. More importantly perhaps the UK invested much earlier, and proportionately more which I suspect is more important, than later when much of the development has already been done.

The big difference is the UK also delivered on vaccine trials via the NHS. These were crucial. The EU has in contrast very poor commitment to vaccine trials. The US and the UK and to a lesser extent South Africa were major contributors to the international trials. The EU has contributed proportionately little.
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Old 31st January 2021, 11:05 AM   #3511
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Mod InfoThe thread has been split due to length and the continuation is here.
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