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Old 9th February 2021, 05:27 PM   #81
xjx388
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Best explanation I've heard so far is that we treat animals humanely not to affirm their humanity but to affirm ours.

Eh. Iím affirming my humanity by eating the lesser animals, lol.

More seriously, I get it. For me, I choose to get the best tasting meat and animal products I can find. Usually that means the animals were raised in what would be considered humane ways.

Foie gras was mentioned. The purveyors of the best foie Iíve ever tasted have, not coincidentally, been those farmers who run clean, free range, blah blah; e.g. humane operations (and to be clear, foie gras can be produced without torturing the ducks -there are a lot myths about gavage). Same goes for beef, poultry and pork.

Now, I can afford to get the best I can find. Many people cannot and Iím not about to judge those people for buying and enjoying animal products from larger, less expensive and less ďhumaneĒ industrial farms. I guess thatís my larger point.
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:36 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
i think itís universally accepted that people should try to inflict as little unnecessary suffering on the world as possible.

but if thatís feel good nonsense, I think you could make good argument that telling someone they gave it a good life and humanely killed it would allow more people to enjoy the meal than telling them the animal was abused and killed in the most horrific manner they could think of.

But what is suffering? Being raised as a captive only to be killed for food in the prime of life might rank up there -IF we judge such things on human standards. But these are animals, they donít feel or emote like we do. They live in a natural world where a predator will literally chase them down, fight them to the death, rip them apart and eat them raw.

And very few places, especially in the First World, kill animals in the most horrific way imaginable.
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:37 PM   #83
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But foie gras is so delicious!

I find the idea that there is an ethical way to treat an animal that you going to end up killing so that you can sell its meat for profit to be a little...weird. Feel-good nonsense really.

ďI gave it a good life before gently killing it it, slitting its neck from ear to ear (or cutting its head off), letting the blood drain out and butchering the carcass.Ē

They are food animals. If we are ok with killing them to eat them, what does the rest matter in the big scheme of things? Treat the animal in a way that makes it the best food animal it can be. Thatís what I care about.
Nah! This is just silly. In some cultures it is okay to beat a dog to death because it is believed that the hormones released will make you strong if you eat it. Itís barbaric.
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:47 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Tell that to the mostly third-world workers picking the vegan staple crops in horrible working conditions.

And yes, the working conditions in meat farming aren't any better, but then meat eaters at least aren't walking around pretending to be all morally pure and humane about it.
In my personal experience (anecdote, I know) the vegetarians, vegans, and people who attempt to eat less meat or more humane animal products (in my experience) are the most likely to also take human labor conditions into account.

I also have met zero vegetarians or vegans who consider themselves morally pure. Again, that's my anecdotal experience, but it's been so consistent, I would be surprised to find it's a common sentiment.
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Old 9th February 2021, 06:01 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Nah! This is just silly. In some cultures it is okay to beat a dog to death because it is believed that the hormones released will make you strong if you eat it. Itís barbaric.

Sure, but thatís nowhere near the scale of what we are considering here.

And itís also a bit -Paternalistic? Imperialistic? Condescending? I donít know the right word but maybe you get the gist -in my view, to judge other cultures by the standards of our own culture.
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Old 9th February 2021, 06:07 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But what is suffering? Being raised as a captive only to be killed for food in the prime of life might rank up there -IF we judge such things on human standards. But these are animals, they donít feel or emote like we do. They live in a natural world where a predator will literally chase them down, fight them to the death, rip them apart and eat them raw.

And very few places, especially in the First World, kill animals in the most horrific way imaginable.
what is suffering? I think youíll get different answers depending who you ask. some people do consider caging them to be suffering also, they pay extra for meat not treated in that manner. some people donít eat meat at all. people have different views on the ethical treatment of animals. even if other animals would tear them apart in the wild.

I would have thought everyone could agree at least that unnecessary suffering is bad.

Iíd agree that most first world countries donít do that, because itís unnecessary. Iím only telling you that because you wrote this which seems to indicate that since you canít completely eliminate suffering any efforts to minimize it are nonsense. The just donít agree with that sentiment

Quote:
I find the idea that there is an ethical way to treat an animal that you going to end up killing so that you can sell its meat for profit to be a little...weird. Feel-good nonsense really.
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Old 9th February 2021, 06:08 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
In my personal experience (anecdote, I know) the vegetarians, vegans, and people who attempt to eat less meat or more humane animal products (in my experience) are the most likely to also take human labor conditions into account.

I also have met zero vegetarians or vegans who consider themselves morally pure. Again, that's my anecdotal experience, but it's been so consistent, I would be surprised to find it's a common sentiment.
We can all imagine what the Venn diagram of vegans and people concerned with the treatment of migrants looks like
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Old 9th February 2021, 06:19 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
what is suffering? I think youíll get different answers depending who you ask. some people do consider caging them to be suffering also, they pay extra for meat not treated in that manner. some people donít eat meat at all. people have different views on the ethical treatment of animals. even if other animals would tear them apart in the wild.
True story: I once, for a podcast, attended a talk by an animal psychic and animal activist, who once went to France and communicated telepathically with cows. I asked her if the cows knew that they'd been bred for captivity. She said that she didn't think that was true. She was a husbandry denier.

I also told her that if you don't milk a dairy cow on a daily basis it runs a risk of developing mastitis and dying. She denied that, too, and every other person in the room (who wasn't with me) agreed with her. I was really popular at that meeting.

I guess my point is that for some people, there is no such thing as the ethical treatment of animals. All treatment of animals (except I suppose via telepathy) is unethical.
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Old 9th February 2021, 06:39 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
True story: I once, for a podcast, attended a talk by an animal psychic and animal activist, who once went to France and communicated telepathically with cows. I asked her if the cows knew that they'd been bred for captivity. She said that she didn't think that was true. She was a husbandry denier.

I also told her that if you don't milk a dairy cow on a daily basis it runs a risk of developing mastitis and dying. She denied that, too, and every other person in the room (who wasn't with me) agreed with her. I was really popular at that meeting.

I guess my point is that for some people, there is no such thing as the ethical treatment of animals. All treatment of animals (except I suppose via telepathy) is unethical.
Yeah, I can imagine people are like that out there. I think it was my mom who said she knew somebody that wore bells on their pants so bugs could hear her coming and move out of the way so she didn't step on them.

All I'm trying to say is that the idea that suffering is bad and we should try and minimize suffering a pretty universal sentiment. Applying that idea to animals is pretty reasonable and people have different ideas on how to do that in practice, which is fine and you get people who take it to an unreasonable extreme.
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Old 9th February 2021, 07:00 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
We can all imagine what the Venn diagram of vegans and people concerned with the treatment of migrants looks like
Caveman seems to be imagining it differently for some reason.
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Old 9th February 2021, 07:02 PM   #91
dirtywick
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Caveman seems to be imagining it differently for some reason.
Yeah, but maybe he'll change his mind lol
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Old 9th February 2021, 07:17 PM   #92
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Sure, but thatís nowhere near the scale of what we are considering here.
Why? Your moral proposition is that if an animal is to be eaten then there ought to be no consideration to how it is raised an slaughered.

I think that is just downright bad ethics. If you kill and eat an animal, then indeed it is not a good outcome for the animal, but if you torture it all its life first then you compound the harm.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
And itís also a bit -Paternalistic? Imperialistic? Condescending? I donít know the right word but maybe you get the gist -in my view, to judge other cultures by the standards of our own culture.
No, it isn't. I am not a normative moral relativist. If it hurts to beat a dog to death then it hurts regardless of some cultural woo that gets attached to it.

In my view, culturally-backed woo is a kind of brain fog that makes people stop thinking clearly.

"But in our culture, it is fine to sacrifice virgins to the volcano god."

"Then your culture ****** up. Please change!"
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th February 2021, 07:22 PM   #93
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There's a story about a British officer's reaction, when he encountered the practice of suttee.
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Old 9th February 2021, 07:27 PM   #94
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a story about a British officer's reaction, when he encountered the practice of suttee.
That was a sick burn! (Sikh burn? - No, it was a Hindu practice.)
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

Last edited by angrysoba; 9th February 2021 at 07:29 PM.
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