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23rd September 2017, 11:39 AM | #41 |
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If I did want to hide it existence, I would not have included the link. I could have said that out of four examples of what students would learn, three are SWAT tactics and one is a class room discussion.
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23rd September 2017, 11:40 AM | #42 |
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23rd September 2017, 11:43 AM | #43 |
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Curious no-one seems to have responded to the implicit question in my post.
What are the principles that American policing is founded on? How can we judge if they are living up to expectations if we don't know what those expectations are. |
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23rd September 2017, 11:44 AM | #44 |
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23rd September 2017, 11:49 AM | #45 |
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I do not see how I am misrepresenting it. I have shown how the US police shoot way more than any other police, I have linked to a study of of reasons why that is, I have linked to a report on the increased militarisation of the police and then linked to an example of how a small police force in a peaceful area is trying to normalise it s militarisation by educating the public.
I have in another thread suggested a solution, which is all the small forces should be trained by the state to ensure the same high standard (how it is done in the UK) and the emphasis is on de-escalation, not SWAT. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...hout-guns.html "US police gather in Scotland to learn how to protect and serve without guns After a wave of deadly shootings by police on unarmed suspects, US police chiefs have turned to Scotland as a model for less aggressive policing ....Police chiefs from New York, Boston, Houston and other US cities have gathered at Scotland's police training academy at Tulliallan, 25 miles Northeast of Glasgow. Bernard Higgins, Assistant Chief Constable of Police Scotland, instructed the officers on the Scottish approach to policing. “The basic fundamental principle, even in the areas where there’s high levels of crime, high levels of social deprivation, is it’s community-based policing by unarmed officers,” he explained, according to the New York Times. “We police from an absolute position of embracing democracy.” That means, according to Mr Higgins, being willing to retreat from a confrontation with a suspect in order to help diffuse the situation. The police officials assembled understood the logic of such a strategy, but thought it would be difficult to execute in the muscular world of American policing." |
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23rd September 2017, 11:51 AM | #46 |
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23rd September 2017, 11:59 AM | #47 |
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23rd September 2017, 12:14 PM | #48 |
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Taking sources that are more about the behaviour of the police from other threads, here is a very good study about the police in Canada
http://theindependent.ca/2015/04/14/...ngs-in-canada/ Canada has 0.7 fatal shootings by the police per 100,000 (the USA 2.9, the UK 0.04) The problem for Canada is Alberta which skews the figures. The article goes on to note that; "But that cannot be the whole story, because Canadian police kill more people in one year than UK police kill in 10, despite our countries having homicide rates in the same ballpark. This seems to be the result of different approaches to policing; in particular, most police officers in the UK do not carry guns. The typical British ‘bobby’ is expected to carry out her duties armed only with speed cuffs, a baton, and tear gas or pepper spray. Firearms are restricted to special units whose members have lots of experience and special training. If police in Canada were to adopt this approach, a lot of unnecessary tragedies could be averted. But you may ask: If UK police do not carry guns, doesn’t that place them greater risk? Apparently not. Not a single British police officer has been murdered on the job since 2012." The UK cop is expected to use de-escalation tactics and those with guns are highly trained. |
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23rd September 2017, 01:37 PM | #49 |
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Yes. You could have.
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Which reminds me, in all these "years-worth of debates," why was this apparently the first mention you have encountered of citizen police academies? They have been a staple of police outreach for decades. Is this another example of the quality of your research?
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Say, I just remembered a similar debate not terribly long ago, where my correspondent was of the opinion that the police should not be allowed to perform first aid, because it's a way for them to desensitize the citizenry to the police's strengthening grip on the nation's throat, or some such. Was that you? This signature is intended to irritate people. |
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23rd September 2017, 01:42 PM | #50 |
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I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
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23rd September 2017, 01:50 PM | #51 |
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It still shows the emphasis is on SWAT.
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23rd September 2017, 02:06 PM | #52 |
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Then maybe you should reread my responses. In each of these instances you have cherry-picked, misinterpreted, presented unwarranted conclusions and assigned motive.
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But, again, thank you so much for your willingness to show us how to solve our problems. This signature is intended to irritate people. |
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23rd September 2017, 02:08 PM | #53 |
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I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
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23rd September 2017, 03:21 PM | #54 |
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Really, really low, fortunately, unless you count shotguns, and we are quite OK with that.
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23rd September 2017, 03:52 PM | #55 |
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Unjustified shootings ARE indefensible though. As you say, the solution is that they be trained. But if people defend every bad or iffy shoot there will be no incentive to train better.
Most officers would probably prefer to never shoot anyone and it is horrible for them that their superiors aren't giving them all the tools needed to resolve things peacefully (de-escalation techniques). It always troubles me that any criticism of the police results in people being labelled cop-haters. I have complete respect for anyone who chooses to step up and protect the public. Which is why it can be so jarring to hear about tragedies like the Magdiel Sanchez case or Philando Castile. And then having people insisting that the cops involved can't be criticised or expected to behave rationally or that the victim should be held to higher standards than the officer makes me feel like the US is pranking the rest of the world. How can cops run into danger in the WTC one minute and dissolve into pants-******** terror at a traffic stop where the victim was being compliant the next? We all owe it to the good officers to denounce the bad ones. P.S. I know most of that seemed all over the place but I'm trying to wrap my head around it all |
23rd September 2017, 03:53 PM | #56 |
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Heh. Funny you mention Bed-Stuy. I know a couple of people that lived there, and it's much the same as in Baltimore - police see you walking around or just standing , start yelling, shove you either into a wall or force you to the ground, dig in your pockets without permission, and when they find nothing just leave.
Back when cops had their big "we only respond to calls" fit, my friends there described it as the safest they'd ever felt. Oh, and in DC, have fun with jump-outs. |
23rd September 2017, 04:06 PM | #57 |
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Part of the problem might be that you view your streets as some kind of war zone.
All police across the planet have to deal with criminals and violence. The US is not exeptional in that regard. The streets of Glasgow can get pretty violent. There is the added difficulty of so many people being armed in the US but to my knowledge no one has ever told the police not to shoot someone wielding a gun. |
23rd September 2017, 04:36 PM | #58 |
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I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
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23rd September 2017, 04:46 PM | #59 |
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It's not simply a case of Good v Bad. A good cop can make a horrible mistake, and I think that's where the vast majority of these incidents lands. That doesn't excuse anything, and the cop should face punishment, but there's no logical reason to assume that anyone is immune to making such a mistake. It's a foreseeable consequence of carrying a firearm.
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23rd September 2017, 04:51 PM | #60 |
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You do realize that it's possible to interpret your post as being more of a comment on the kind of friends you keep, than on the police?
Not doing that here, I'm just trying to illustrate to a certain someone how facts can be interpreted according to bias. This signature is intended to irritate people. |
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23rd September 2017, 04:57 PM | #61 |
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I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
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23rd September 2017, 05:02 PM | #62 |
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Perhaps a better term would be "unfit" or "unsuited". Those who easily panic should be weeded out early.
And those who are more level-headed should be given all the tools needed to ensure everyone goes home safe. I remember something on the BBC (it might have been the program mentioned earlier) where the Scottish officer tried to explain that once you enter a situation screaming at people with your gun drawn you have nowhere else to go if things escalate. Shooting is the only next step if something goes wrong. But if you come in talking and keeping calm you can escslate if necessary (and hopefully it wont come to that). |
23rd September 2017, 05:05 PM | #63 |
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23rd September 2017, 05:59 PM | #64 |
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The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
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23rd September 2017, 07:06 PM | #65 |
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23rd September 2017, 07:22 PM | #66 |
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American cops rarely enter a situation "screaming, with guns drawn." One hand resting on the butt of their holstered weapon, maybe, but that's usually the extent.
There's any number of reasons the situation can go south after that, and it's inaccurate, senseless and dishonest to generalize. On the cop's side it could be anything from just having a bad day to being an officious ass with an ego problem (one of my co-workers -- aka cow-orker -- in Immigration didn't count it a good day until he had denied at least one visa application). On the suspect's(?) side it could be anything from an ill-advised or stupid move to suicide by cop. The possible scenarios are endless. The 500-lb gorilla in the room, of course, is that every once in a while, regardless of all other considerations the cop, whether officious bastard or devoted family man (and the two are not mutually exclusive) will have to unexpectedly and in a fraction of a second decide whether to draw and fire. If he stops to think about it he could be dead. I honestly don't know how you train for that. Oh sure, you practice the mechanics of the scenario and go over and over how to recognize the situation for what it is, but the classroom doesn't dump adrenalin into your system, the simulator is not the street, and naked fear isn't present. I just don't know how to train for it and I'm reasonably sure that I couldn't do it. This signature is intended to irritate people. |
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23rd September 2017, 07:30 PM | #67 |
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I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
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23rd September 2017, 11:56 PM | #68 |
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That's only part of the answer. The other major part is that they are accountable. They should have to go through a rigorous process justifying every shot they fire. They should be investigated by a powerful independent authority with the power to fine, suspend or dismiss them every time they shoot someone, and they should face criminal charges, including murder, every time they shoot someone they shouldn't have shot. There should also be a national set of guidelines or even laws which proscribes their rights to discharge their weapons, against which they should be judged every single time they pull the trigger.
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24th September 2017, 12:04 AM | #69 |
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Look at that tone. Boy, someone struck a nerve with you, didn't they.
Now that for the first time you have actually acknowledged that you have a problem, instead of dripping sarcasm at everyone who suggests frameworks for beginning to address the problem, why don't you make some sort of positive contribution to the discussion yourself? How would you begin to fix the problem of US police killing so many US citizens every year? |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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24th September 2017, 01:26 AM | #70 |
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The real problem with having this conversation with the diehard cop groupies who dig desperately for any justification they can dream up to excuse the behavior of psychotic, out-of-control cops who kill is that they don't really acknowledge the existence of a problem. It is all just part of 'the price we have to pay to be safe in a free society'. Or something. |
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24th September 2017, 01:52 AM | #71 |
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24th September 2017, 02:29 AM | #72 |
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That was Bob the Coward. - Pretty accurate summary, only it was boots against necks. On the plus side, he did manage to get right wing and left wing posters to agree on an aspect of politics.
Nessie posted what Scottish Police must do in a RTA: Which is pretty much in line with standard First Aid protocols Change is possible in US police forces: https://qz.com/565011/how-one-of-the...ooting-people/ Elsewhere on this forum I hvae seen (but can't find) a link showing that smaller police departments, with poorer training, are disproportionately represented in police shootings, even though many are in low-crime areas. |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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24th September 2017, 03:03 AM | #73 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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24th September 2017, 04:14 AM | #75 |
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He's not Robocop?
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24th September 2017, 04:42 AM | #76 |
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On posts like these: Both of these posters clearly feel that this topic is too insignificant to discuss. Having established that, how many unjustified police killings would be sufficient to justify skeptics discussing the issue? Dave |
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24th September 2017, 04:54 AM | #77 |
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24th September 2017, 05:03 AM | #78 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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24th September 2017, 06:24 AM | #79 |
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Simply another thread filled with Nessie's irrational paranoia about firearms, with a fig leaf being a whinge about cops. LL's response suffices for mine.
@Zooterkin: Suggest you do some research. There is more than one kind of law enforcement agency in the US. Each has its own philosophy. The FBI and the Justice Department spent about 50 years, after the civil rights era/police brutality uproars, spending federal funds and a lot of time and effort to aid states and cities in the professionalization of their police forces. (Source for this? The training captain of a metropolitan PD who I've known for some years, 38 years on the force). My brother in law, career cop, has told me that the best training he has gotten over the years, after his initial training at the police academy, was the FBI training. The politics of policing has a long and interesting history. (Check out the mid 1800's New York cops ... hardly the model of the modern professional most cops aspire to). Whatever assumptions you are making, check them. All of the norms and issues of a given society inform to what their police do. (My recall of 1980's Germany is that German cops don't do Miranda warnings, and the occasional "slap 'em around" response was common. Italian police likewise.) Lastly, a variety of criminal sorts in the US are armed, legally or otherwise, and dangerous. Depending on what locale you are operating in as a cop, you'll be more or less paranoid about approaching a given scene. Read up on the Branch Davidians in Waco if you do not understand that last sentence. Lastly: cops get shot and shot at. If it weren't for many of them wearing body armor, many more would die. This is not a one way street. Suggest you do some more research on five major PD's in the US in re "guiding principles" to compare to your theory crafting about cops. NYPD LAPD Chicago PD Houston PD Miami PD Your assumption that there is "one guiding principle" strikes me as your very first error. We don't have a national police force, first of all. You are not making an apples to apples comparison. |
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24th September 2017, 06:55 AM | #80 |
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The problem with American policing has nothing to do with guns, or training, or approach. The problem is how the attitude of "good cops" exacerbate bad policing.
People are people. I'm sure police forces in the UK get roughly the same proportion of dickheads as US police. People who mostly just signed up to beat the **** out of people and get away with it. In the UK, when someone like that finally steps over the line and kills someone, what happens? Probably some kind of inquiry, demerits all up and down the line, jail time and such, right? In the US, here's what happens all too often: not a damned thing. From the officer's buddies just so happening to look the other way, to evidence being mishandled, to dash cams and body cams being turned off at that exact moment, to police chiefs who put them on paid suspension pending an "investigation" that lasts as long as it takes for media interest to die down, to friendly judges and prosecutors stacking friendly juries, nothing ever happens to hold these bad cops accountable. Actual jail time is an incredible rarity. And even if such an individual accrues enough of a history to get fired from one precinct, the next town over would be glad to have him because he has years of experience being a cop and somehow the violence never gets mentioned. All of that is not the fault of the bad cops, but the "good cops" who aid and abet them. That is the problem. Almost all cops like to think of themselves as good cops, but would they cover for a buddy who "got a little out of hand?" Then **** them, they're just as crooked and they need to deal with that. There's more to talk about, like the culture of fear that US police foster in their ranks, but fix the outright corruption first and then we'll see about institutional issues. I don't think so. I don't have the numbers, no one does, but my hunch is it's gotten a lot better in recent years. Cops are finally being held accountable for their actions, albeit in a public way via youtube, so we're just hearing about it more. "Cop shoots a black kid" wouldn't even have made the local news a few decades ago. |
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