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Old 24th December 2021, 10:39 AM   #201
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And that was my point it is not a 3D.
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Old 24th December 2021, 10:46 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Sorry, wrong link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5D

Despite the smiley (due to the irony of it) I was serious; the kind of projection used in the LIDAR image is called "2.5D". Quoting from this last link:
"Assigning height to 2D regions of a topographic map" associating every 2D location with a height/elevation value creates a 2.5D projection; this is not considered a "true 3D representation", however is used like 3D visual representation to "simplify visual processing of imagery and the resulting spatial cognition".

The US Army had three prerequisite primers after your basic training tailored
for soldiers bound for Viet Nam.
One - Booby-traps used by the Viet Cong/ NVA
Two - Venomous insects and serpents of S.E. Asia
Three - Military Topographical map reading.
Long before video games and CNC technologies, the X-Y-Z axis aka 3D concept was refined to convey three dimensions of topography for military
applications. The three dimensions were named..
X axis defined the EAST-WEST latitude
Y axis defined the North-South Longitude
Z axis defined the Enfilades and Defilades


https://military-history.fandom.com/...e_and_defilade


https://www.directionsmag.com/article/2398
[excerpt]




A two-axis system of east-west and north-south was defined using the algebra coordinate system created by mathematician René Descartes in the 1600s. In this Cartesian coordinate system, the tradition is to use (x, y) as the order of the coordinate pair locating a point on a plane. But when north is up - the predominant (though not only) pattern for maps since Ptolemy made maps of ancient Egypt - x measures east-west and y measures north-south. That is, the latitude–longitude order favored by geographers is y, x. So the axis confusion we deal with today has, itself, a longstanding history dating back to the first efforts to relate two different reference systems with two methods of defining the axes. As long as people communicate clearly and accurately the characteristics of the axis-systems in use - "truth in advertising" - the confusion is minimized.




When geodesists connect coordinate systems to the Earth by specifying a datum (locations on the Earth for the axes), we in OGC call that a Coordinate Reference System (CRS). The equator was a natural for a worldwide datum on the east-west axis and over time the Greenwich Meridian, running through Greenwich, U.K., has become the most common location for the north-south axis.

Geodesists, who came into their own in the Age of Exploration, include a third axis in their descriptions of location. They deal with latitude, longitude and altitude, in that order, and call them x, y and z. And thus confusion increases.[/excerpt]


In the LIDAR map ...
The X axis is the left-right horizontal axis.
The Y axis is the foreground-background (bottom to top)
The Z axis is the altitude. (height)



In a military topographical map altitudes on the battle field were delineated by graduated contour lines.
Bottom line ...
2.5 D is correct for CNC or gaming but to old military minds - 3D is acceptable because the LIDAR image display three dimensions ,namely
X & Y & Z
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Old 24th December 2021, 12:15 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
That's not really a fair criticism. The lines are fairly accurate, especially those of WTC 1, and the area of WTC 2 is approximately correct even if the lines are slightly displaced and tilted.

Here's my own match of the LIDAR and a WTC plan, made with Gimp's perspective tool, taking surrounding buildings as reference to match against, compared to Fonebone's assessment:



Good morning pgimeno _ Steve here
Would you please superimpose another Gimp image over this LIDAR created from the opposite vantage?






Thank you in advance
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Last edited by Fonebone; 24th December 2021 at 12:29 PM. Reason: correct addressee
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Old 24th December 2021, 01:36 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
The US Army had three prerequisite primers after your basic training tailored
for soldiers bound for Viet Nam.
One - Booby-traps used by the Viet Cong/ NVA
Two - Venomous insects and serpents of S.E. Asia
Three - Military Topographical map reading.
Long before video games and CNC technologies, the X-Y-Z axis aka 3D concept was refined to convey three dimensions of topography for military
applications. The three dimensions were named..
X axis defined the EAST-WEST latitude
Y axis defined the North-South Longitude
Z axis defined the Enfilades and Defilades


https://military-history.fandom.com/...e_and_defilade


https://www.directionsmag.com/article/2398
[excerpt]




A two-axis system of east-west and north-south was defined using the algebra coordinate system created by mathematician René Descartes in the 1600s. In this Cartesian coordinate system, the tradition is to use (x, y) as the order of the coordinate pair locating a point on a plane. But when north is up - the predominant (though not only) pattern for maps since Ptolemy made maps of ancient Egypt - x measures east-west and y measures north-south. That is, the latitude–longitude order favored by geographers is y, x. So the axis confusion we deal with today has, itself, a longstanding history dating back to the first efforts to relate two different reference systems with two methods of defining the axes. As long as people communicate clearly and accurately the characteristics of the axis-systems in use - "truth in advertising" - the confusion is minimized.




When geodesists connect coordinate systems to the Earth by specifying a datum (locations on the Earth for the axes), we in OGC call that a Coordinate Reference System (CRS). The equator was a natural for a worldwide datum on the east-west axis and over time the Greenwich Meridian, running through Greenwich, U.K., has become the most common location for the north-south axis.

Geodesists, who came into their own in the Age of Exploration, include a third axis in their descriptions of location. They deal with latitude, longitude and altitude, in that order, and call them x, y and z. And thus confusion increases.[/excerpt]


In the LIDAR map ...
The X axis is the left-right horizontal axis.
The Y axis is the foreground-background (bottom to top)
The Z axis is the altitude. (height)



In a military topographical map altitudes on the battle field were delineated by graduated contour lines.
Bottom line ...
2.5 D is correct for CNC or gaming but to old military minds - 3D is acceptable because the LIDAR image display three dimensions ,namely
X & Y & Z
You still don't get it, these images, the Army maps you refer are 2D images of a 3D real world you can't get a 3rd dimension out of a 2D surface, you can get a representation of a 3D, but it is still 2D.

Secondly and more important what does all this have to do with 9/11? Does it prove/disprove anything other than you are a troll, just posting to get a response.
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Old 24th December 2021, 06:21 PM   #205
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There is nothing that looks out of whack in the LIDAR image. And certainly nothing that supports a CD brought the buildings down.
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Old 24th December 2021, 06:35 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Good morning pgimeno _ Steve here
Would you please superimpose another Gimp image over this LIDAR created from the opposite vantage?
You can do it yourself. Load the plan as a layer, crop it and activate the perspective tool on the plan layer.
https://docs.gimp.org/2.10/en/gimp-t...rspective.html
Change the opacity in the tool options to see how it fits, and move the handles until you get a decent enough match. Use the bases of the buildings for reference. Finally, click Transform and adjust the opacity of the layer again.

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Interestingly, that view illustrates very well the holes in the underground parking that most of the buildings went into. You see them, right? The darkest green areas, I mean. They are clearly lower than the ground level.
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Old 25th December 2021, 01:04 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
You can do it yourself. Load the plan as a layer, crop it and activate the perspective tool on the plan layer.
https://docs.gimp.org/2.10/en/gimp-t...rspective.html
Change the opacity in the tool options to see how it fits, and move the handles until you get a decent enough match. Use the bases of the buildings for reference. Finally, click Transform and adjust the opacity of the layer again.
Are you sure about that? Have you seen fonebone's formatting?
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Old 25th December 2021, 12:50 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
( continued )
Fonebone,

Are you going to continue your explanation or are you finished?
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Old 25th December 2021, 03:10 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
You can do it yourself. Load the plan as a layer, crop it and activate the perspective tool on the plan layer.
https://docs.gimp.org/2.10/en/gimp-t...rspective.html
Change the opacity in the tool options to see how it fits, and move the handles until you get a decent enough match. Use the bases of the buildings for reference. Finally, click Transform and adjust the opacity of the layer again.


Interestingly, that view illustrates very well the holes in the underground parking that most of the buildings went into. You see them, right? The darkest green areas, I mean. They are clearly lower than the ground level.

Yes The dark green and black indicate below MSL (Mean Sea Level)
The predominant green in the West- East LIDAR and the East-West LIDAR
indicates MSL ground level and up to plus 10 feet above MSL. The resolution is every 10 foot
rise in vertical the false color unit of color range
would shift from medium green thru yellow to red as the altitude increases.
The voids of dark green and black are shown in both LIDARS are deep holes
in the buildings WTC6 and WTC5, the South-E and South-West corners of
the caisson bathtub basement, the caisson North-West WTC6 and the huge
void between WTC2 and the WTC3 marriot extending out into the WTC plaza.
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Old 25th December 2021, 03:25 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Fonebone,
Are you going to continue your explanation
YES
-or-
Quote:
are you finished?
NO
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Old 25th December 2021, 07:09 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Yes The dark green and black indicate below MSL (Mean Sea Level)
The predominant green in the West- East LIDAR and the East-West LIDAR
indicates MSL ground level and up to plus 10 feet above MSL. The resolution is every 10 foot
rise in vertical the false color unit of color range
would shift from medium green thru yellow to red as the altitude increases.
The voids of dark green and black are shown in both LIDARS are deep holes
in the buildings WTC6 and WTC5, the South-E and South-West corners of
the caisson bathtub basement, the caisson North-West WTC6 and the huge
void between WTC2 and the WTC3 marriot extending out into the WTC plaza.
So since the ground broke and part of the buildings fell down into the underground parking, what does the LIDAR image prove about the distribution of the buildings' debris?

The LIDAR image does not show how much debris is in the surroundings because it doesn't distinguish the debris that went underground from the debris on the ground, therefore the height of the debris field does not indicate how much debris is present. If you don't know how much debris is there around the buildings, how do you know that most debris is in the footprints of the buildings?
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Old 26th December 2021, 01:44 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
No, it doesn't. It's not even on the same page.

However, you quote Gamolon as asking "How did you determine this?", where "this" refers to your, Fonebone's, claim that "the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints"

You pretend that you answer this by posting enormously silly things like...
Originally Posted by Fonebone
exhibit A Schematic map of the WTC complex and adjacent buildings.
[...]
exhibit B is the same map with a horizontal RED line- Vesey- street running E-W on the north and a horizontal BLUE line -Liberty- street running E-W on the south.
[...]
exhibit C LIDAR


creating exhibit D
[...]

Compare exhibits C & D to estimate the height and locations of the three debris footprints
in the building footprints.
( continued )
Well, it has been pointed out that the LIDAR images were taken some time after 9/11, when significant amounts of debris outside the footprints was already removed to clear streets and other areas in order to provide access to the piles.

Now remember you claimed that LIDAR "reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints". Exactly how did you determine this from the LIDAR imaged?
You say "the majority of the towers" - what does this even mean, to begin with? >50% of their original mass? Of the original volume of their solid constituents? Is this including or excluding dust?

How would you measure the mass inside the footprints, and measure the mass outside the footprints, in order to compare them?

How did you figure out how much volume of debris there is underneath the surfaces shown?

Please show your work - or admit you simply eyeballed and took a wild guess, with no concept of how to actually evaluate (determine values of physical quantities with appropriate units) that which you make a claim about.

(And mind you: I am not arguing your claim is wrong - as a matter of fact, I happen to believe it is probably correct! But I could not determine this from the LIDAR, especially as the LIDAR was taken so many days later)
Asked three days ago - waiting for an answer: How did you determine from the LIDAR images the percentage of the towers that ended up inside vs outside the respective footprints? What are you talking about anyway when you say "most" - mass? Debris volume? Building volume prior to collapse?

You're simply eyeballing, i.e. taking a wild, uneducated and biased guess that is worth squat - right?
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Old 26th December 2021, 02:05 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Asked three days ago - waiting for an answer: How did you determine from the LIDAR images the percentage of the towers that ended up inside vs outside the respective footprints? What are you talking about anyway when you say "most" - mass? Debris volume? Building volume prior to collapse?

You're simply eyeballing, i.e. taking a wild, uneducated and biased guess that is worth squat - right?
None of this matters anyway. The idea that the shape of the debris pile carries information about the precise nature of collapse initiation is one originated by people with no experience of studying building collapses, and has never been supported by any evidence whatsoever. The question of where the debris ended up is therefore simply another means used by Truthers to bog down debate by stringing out meaningless discussion of irrelevancies.

Dave
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Old 27th December 2021, 05:59 AM   #214
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These were gravity driven collapse... duh... and one would expect the debris material to be centered on and concentrated at/near the building footprint... regardless of what initiated the collapse. Evidence that gravity was working that day!
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Old 28th December 2021, 12:37 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
These were gravity driven collapse... duh... and one would expect the debris material to be centered on and concentrated at/near the building footprint... regardless of what initiated the collapse. Evidence that gravity was working that day!
They leave it on even at the weekends these days.
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Old 29th December 2021, 08:26 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
YES
-or-
NO
Don't you already have the calculations/process that you used to make your statement, "the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints"?
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Old 29th December 2021, 04:45 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Fonebone spent the day snorkeling in the JREF sewer.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...54#post6815954



WTC1-WTC2-WTC7 ON or In FOOTPRINTS -redux-

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers


Fonebone <

Better yet
Howsabout I use the NIST own words and borrow the NIST's dictionary !

NIST NCSTAR 1 A 2.2.2 2nd paragraph
[excerpt]
Quote:
When the WTC1 collapsed at 10:28:22 a.m.
--most-- of the debris landed--in-- an area --not much larger-- than the original
WTC1 building footprint.

Dr. Brazant : (WTC1 & WTC2 ) "collapsed essentially on their footprint"

NIST : "most of the debris landed
in an area not much larger than the original
WTC1 building footprint."

FEMA : The WTC7 tower debris field averaged 75 feet from the original building footprint.



Ok Dave - I carefully looked at the words "most' and "not much larger' as
you suggested.
Now Dave , tell me ,after you examine this post,
what word does the NIST use between those words you suggest I examined ?
The word the NIST used is show in RED.
--CORRECT -- !!
,the word used by the NIST to describe where most of the WTC1 debris
fell is "IN" an area not much larger than the original WTC1 footprint.
Dr. Bazant says "ON"

NOW Let's examine the LIDAR evidence eh.
Can you locate the WTC1 WTC2 and WTC7 footprints
in this LIDAR ?
This LIDAR scan of the WTC murder scene was captured four days after the 9-11 attack.
Does the rectangular pillow shaped mound at the center left contradict the FEMA statement of a small neat debris field averaging 75 feet ? No It does Not !
The LIDAR is false-color coded indicator of height using
sea-level as "0" reference assigned medium green.
Darker shades of green indicate depths below sea-level

The two twin towers WTC1 & WTC2 and the WTC6 office buildings and the WTC3 Marriot Hotel were constructed over the "bath-tub" caisson and had basements in the bedrock 70 feet below the Hudson river at sea-level.
The nearby buildings verify the colors move from green to yellow to orange to brown as the building's height rises.
The pillow shaped mound of WTC7 debris barely shows
traces of yellow in the light green of the pile compared to the six story height of the WTC6 in bright yellow.
Likewise the two towers show shallow mounds of debris
in the centers that again barely show yellow amongst the green.
The NIST , Dr Bazant,and the FEMA drafts all agree with the LIDAR evidence. The 3 WTC towers1,2, & 7 all fell in or on their respective footprints.
Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Don't you already have the calculations/process that you used to make your statement, "the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints"?

The word "think" is a verb. Applied thought over time is called "mentation".
Instead of chiding the time I take to reply, perhaps you can peruse the morsels of evidence I previously posted in this post above,

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...98#post7378798
and address them individually while I continue to work on my reply. Bic?
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Last edited by Fonebone; 29th December 2021 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 30th December 2021, 12:08 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
The word "think" is a verb. Applied thought over time is called "mentation".
So are you "mentating" on the process of how you came to the conclusion of "the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints"?

Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Instead of chiding the time I take to reply, perhaps you can peruse the morsels of evidence I previously posted in this post above,

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...98#post7378798
and address them individually while I continue to work on my reply. Bic?
None of those provides any explanation at all as to how you arrived at "the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints".

As asked by someone previously:
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
How did you determine from the LIDAR images the percentage of the towers that ended up inside vs outside the respective footprints? What are you talking about anyway when you say "most" - mass? Debris volume? Building volume prior to collapse?
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Old 30th December 2021, 10:18 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
The word "think" is a verb. Applied thought over time is called "mentation".
Instead of chiding the time I take to reply, perhaps you can peruse the morsels of evidence I previously posted in this post above,

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...98#post7378798
and address them individually while I continue to work on my reply. Bic?
more SPAM? BIC

You have no evidence. bic
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Old 31st December 2021, 07:02 PM   #220
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I still don't understand why most of the debris should not land on or near the footprint of the building. Where else is it going to land? Poughkeepsie?
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Old 31st December 2021, 10:27 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I still don't understand why most of the debris should not land on or near the footprint of the building. Where else is it going to land? Poughkeepsie?
That's because you don't understand Truther ScienceTM

If the buildings fell because of gravity-induced collapse, due to weakening of the steel girders, the debris should fall horizontally outwards, travel horizontally an unspecified, but significant, distance, and only then fall to the ground.

On the other hand, if the buildings were blown up by large amounts of high explosives, nanothermite, missiles and/or space ray-guns, then the debris would fall neatly downwards and end up in a nice neat pile. None of it would be blown sideways by the explosion.

See? Simples.
Now, I have no doubt that fonebone, with his legendary diligent attention to detail, has already done the maths on this, and is just itching for the chance to show it.
Right, fonebone?
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Old 11th January 2022, 08:10 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Instead of chiding the time I take to reply,
For someone who supposedly already did the math/calculations used to come to your conclusion that "the LIDAR images reveals the majority of the towers both collapsed into their building footprints", you sure are taking your sweet time to post your information. Over 3 weeks since I asked?

I'm thinking that statement was nothing more than an uneducated guess and you are now trying to backtrack to come up with the math and the process to support it.
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Old 13th January 2022, 03:27 PM   #223
Oystein
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
...
I'm thinking ... you are now trying ... to come up with the math and the process to support it.
LOL
No. Or unlikely in the extreme.
If fonebone were ever able and willing to go through the process of supporting a claim with the required math (if math is what it takes), he would have ceased to be a Truther a very long time ago.
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Old 14th January 2022, 01:56 PM   #224
The Common Potato
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I also have some similar graphs.

The first is from 2013: Political Compass 2013.png

The next is from 2019: Political Compass 2019.png

The last is timeless: Crank graph.jpg

Gotta love this X, Y axis stuff.

Am I becoming a mad laissez faire communist?
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Old 14th January 2022, 02:43 PM   #225
The Common Potato
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
What are you... 12?
Originally Posted by ergo View Post
Is that the best you can do?
Maybe ego is 12 now!
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Old 15th January 2022, 02:04 AM   #226
llwyd
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This thread had quite escaped me and after reading the first two pages, oh well, what to say... God, these conspiracy people are weird.
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Old 15th January 2022, 08:02 AM   #227
bknight
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
This thread had quite escaped me and after reading the first two pages, oh well, what to say... God, these conspiracy people are weird.
It goes way beyond weird.
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Old 15th January 2022, 03:07 PM   #228
Robin
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I got interested in doing some building collapse simulations recently. This one is not supposed to represent any particular building but I thought it might be relevant in discussion of the mysterious question of why buildings fall down instead of sideways and why debris gets scattered around.

Putting it in a spoiler since animated gifs can be annoying.

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Old 15th January 2022, 05:19 PM   #229
JSanderO
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I would like to see it slowed down.
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Old 16th January 2022, 12:01 AM   #230
Robin
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
I would like to see it slowed down.
I put it on YouTube so you can slow it down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaCEYrwbbYM
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