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Old 12th January 2022, 11:08 AM   #41
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And I still hold that the joke from HGTTG about Third Class Telephone Sanitizers (subversion at the very end not withstanding) does hold... some truth in it.

People who physically do things and people make (actual meaningful) decisions do... rank higher I guess you'd say then middle management jobs that just exist to keep organizations self feeding and create layers between the "thinkers" and the "doers."

We need things done and decisions made. We don't need missions statements, progress reports, flowcharts, meetings, and people who exist just to give updates to people who then update other people.
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Old 12th January 2022, 11:50 AM   #42
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Astronauts. Everybody loves astronauts.
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Old 12th January 2022, 12:27 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have a lot of respect for journalism, ethically practiced. Including the protection of sources. But it should take a lot more to earn that respect than simply getting a job at a mainstream media outlet.

Anyone can practice ethical journalism. Being assigned the job title by your employer (or arrogating it to yourself) is not a reliable proxy for that.
That's the important bit: our prime minister was a journalist, who was sacked as such for lying; he also spent a lot of time playing at journalist and telling even more lies, but was never punished for that. Ethics never troubled him.
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Old 12th January 2022, 12:54 PM   #44
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In the UK, surely royalty (well they think it’s an occupation).

Unfathomable to me.
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Old 12th January 2022, 01:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Seriously to venerate is to regard with great respect. Synonyms are revere, worship, adulate, hallow and deify. A lot of atheists eventually search for another god, and for lefties in particular the common man has long been popular, although of course the man part not so much anymore.
But, in the USA, its the right that is venerating coal mining jobs in particular, and some other working class occupations in general. Even though the right is largely anti-union, and coal mining is a largely unionized occupation. I think its an alliance because the right is seen as their best shot at holding onto an industry that is definitely not green.
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Old 12th January 2022, 01:24 PM   #46
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It's hard to define and even harder to prove a "feel" on the level we're talking, but I certainly remember coal mining being a beyond it's actual level working class hero archetype before the Right slipped from not caring about the environment to turning into Captain Planet villain actively fighting it just to tweak the Libs.

There was "Yay Coal" before Coal Rolling so to speak.
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Old 12th January 2022, 01:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's hard to define and even harder to prove a "feel" on the level we're talking, but I certainly remember coal mining being a beyond it's actual level working class hero archetype before the Right slipped from not caring about the environment to turning into Captain Planet villain actively fighting it just to tweak the Libs.

There was "Yay Coal" before Coal Rolling so to speak.
Thinking about it, you're right, as I recall from the 90's before global warming was really an issue. I really think it just comes down to how the majority in an industry vote, or if they are in swing states. Police, truck drivers, and coal miners tend to be republican so republican politicians talk them up, while they simultaneously compare unions with communism.

Its a chicken and egg situation though, I don't know what came first.
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Old 12th January 2022, 01:36 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
But, in the USA, its the right that is venerating coal mining jobs in particular, and some other working class occupations in general. Even though the right is largely anti-union, and coal mining is a largely unionized occupation. I think its an alliance because the right is seen as their best shot at holding onto an industry that is definitely not green.
The left tends to venerate teachers, and science-popularizers.
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Old 12th January 2022, 01:40 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The left tends to venerate teachers, and science-popularizers.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

Both sides seem to venerate different positions (firefighters are one that both sides seem to venerate). And in the USA it seems we do things differently on a left-right political axis as compared to other developed nations. Actually that might be why we are such a right leaning country. Our right wing party did not alienate pretty much all working class people like almost every other democracy.

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Old 12th January 2022, 01:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Thinking about it, you're right, as I recall from the 90's before global warming was really an issue. I really think it just comes down to how the majority in an industry vote, or if they are in swing states. Police, truck drivers, and coal miners tend to be republican so republican politicians talk them up, while they simultaneously compare unions with communism.

Its a chicken and egg situation though, I don't know what came first.
I don't know how hard I want to poke this particular bubble, but the Left defaulting to pro-union and the Right to anti-union as a purely political dichotomy has always struck me as weird as in if I just think of the jobs that jump out to me as the biggest union jobs (Police, Manufacturing, Blue Collar) those aren't screaming "Liberal" to me.

When I think Teamsters and the Fraternal Order of Police and Autoworkers "Liberal" isn't the first image that springs to mind.

Maybe it was more nuanced before the Right turned into contrarian trolls who don't actually care about anything.
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Old 12th January 2022, 01:51 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't know how hard I want to poke this particular bubble, but the Left defaulting to pro-union and the Right to anti-union as a purely political dichotomy has always struck me as weird as in if I just think of the jobs that jump out to me as the biggest union jobs (Police, Manufacturing, Blue Collar) those aren't screaming "Liberal" to me.

When I think Teamsters and the Fraternal Order of Police "Liberal" isn't the first image that springs to mind.
I think police are pretty much always associated with being on the right, and thats one in which the USA is not unique.

Teamsters though are a weird mixed bag. They were, for a long time, stalwart Democratic voters as a block. But now not so much.

Anecdotal, but I had a conversation with a trucker driving co-worker who is in the teamsters. He's a republican, hates the union. He quit his last job, which was non-union and got a job here. What was wrong with your last job I asked him? Worse pay, worse benefits, and worse working conditions. But he hates the union. The GoP has just done an excellent job with propaganda, playing up the "culture wars" stuff etc. I'm sure smarter people could, and have, written lengthy papers on the subject. I can't really figure it out myself.
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Old 12th January 2022, 03:31 PM   #52
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bucket lists

I hear that Richard Branson has just launched Real Cowboy Ranch, and Bezos is in training to become the honest-to-god Fire Chief of his own Deep Heat Volunteer Fire Force.


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Old 12th January 2022, 03:47 PM   #53
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Punk Rockers. A lot of people seem to hold them in high regard.

Also, reality show contestants. Though that's less of a profession and more of a side hustle.
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Old 12th January 2022, 04:10 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Punk Rockers. A lot of people seem to hold them in high regard.


How did you know? Punk rockers and artists have a romantic appeal to me. Although they are sort of anti-jobs. I have a degree of respect and envy for anyone who makes a living in these fields. At the same time, I find their success highly suspect, like maybe they blew the whole thing after all. They ought to be side hustles destined to go nowhere, with the odd one or two recognized post-mortem, having "died in poverty."
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Old 12th January 2022, 04:12 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
It wasn't vastly dissimilar here. But promised jobs rarely arrived, all the promised investment was conspicuous by its absence. Some call centres were opened, but they didn't pay very well and were not popular places to work.

There was the Nissan plant at Washington, which brought a certain number of skilled and well-remunerated jobs, but sod all else of significance.
We got some foreign investment factories producing consumer electronics down on Teesside. They were given a govt subsidy to set up and new factories rent free for a couple of years in 'Enterprise zones' Then as soon as the subsidies finished they all closed down and moved to eastern Europe.
Same with the so called 35 million 'City Challenge' funding put in to Middlesbrough. All that is left to show for it now are a few pieces of 'public art' and some flower beds.

The North East coast from Humber up to Blyth has been lucky though in that a lot of Offshore companies are switching from oil and gas over to offshore wind.
Even Whitby has had some investment. The ports are getting so congested that one of the service companies is redeveloping part of Endeavour Wharf. It's the former cargo wharf and for the last 30 years just used as a car park. They will be running maintenance crew boats in and out to the Dogger bank wind farms.
It's bringing 'proper' jobs to the town which for the most part relies on seasonal holiday work.

Also we still still have mines. There is one one the cliffs at Boulby, the second deepest in Europe, it produces salt, potash and polyhalite. Just down the coast and inland behind Whitby a new polyhalite mine is being sunk. Whereas the existing mine has a rail connection to Tees Dock the new mine will move it's product on a conveyor belt through a 23 mile long tunnel at an average depth of 850 ft.

Boulby also has underground labs which are home to various dark matter experiments
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Old 12th January 2022, 04:31 PM   #56
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I've been fascinated by how these things have changed over the years.

When I was growing up, the teachers were held up as pillars of the community and lived in beautiful homes...

A local doctor lived in a three-storey home, and had live-in servants (cook and housekeeper).

Now teachers seem to be held in very low esteem, and my local doctor seems to be barely keeping his head above water (despite also having a second income from writing).

A friend worked in Germany for a while as an Engineer (micro-electronics) and was amazed at how much respect he was given for his achievements.

In Australia? People would ask him if he could fix their car for free.
NB. He works in medical engineering and has two post graduate degrees in biomedical engineering, and is qualified as a Doctor (i.e. holds both medical degrees as required to be a general practitioner).

And people ask him if he can fix their car? What the **** is wrong with these people?
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Old 12th January 2022, 04:33 PM   #57
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And I note that no one is mentioning the obscene salaries and respect afforded to people who play sport...

I've often wondered if this is the early signs of a civilisation that is about to collapse.

All kinds of parasite classes are revered (priests, actors, athletes) and the people that actually maintain and improve the civilisation are treated with contempt.
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Old 12th January 2022, 04:34 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
But, in the USA, its the right that is venerating coal mining jobs in particular, and some other working class occupations in general. Even though the right is largely anti-union, and coal mining is a largely unionized occupation. I think its an alliance because the right is seen as their best shot at holding onto an industry that is definitely not green.
Both Republicans and Democrats pretend to venerate coal miners when they are campaigning in West Virginia, just as they put on their John Deere hats and natter on about the family farm being the backbone of America when venturing into Iowa.

Although the left talks a good game when it comes to shutting down the coal mines, their simultaneous obsession with shutting down pipelines and nuclear power plants virtually guarantees that coal consumption will go up here just as it has in Germany.
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Old 12th January 2022, 04:35 PM   #59
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Venerated for putting up with being paid **** and working in **** conditions mostly. When you are broken you can GAGF.
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Old 12th January 2022, 06:30 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We need things done and decisions made. We don't need missions statements, progress reports, flowcharts, meetings, and people who exist just to give updates to people who then update other people.
While I appreciate your point of view, absent a universal basic income the other thing we need is jobs. In today's world economy, people need to work. If the only jobs that were available were the ones that got things done and made decisions, there wouldn't be enough jobs for everyone. There would be millions of unemployed people. So we create jobs. Sure, some of them are B-Ark. Maybe even a lot of them. But every person who is doing a B-Ark job is one who is not unemployed. We don't need fewer B-Ark jobs, we need more.
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Old 12th January 2022, 06:40 PM   #61
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If you go by how often the are mentioned in literature you would have priests and lawyers near the top.

By literature I mean joke books, of course.
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Old 12th January 2022, 08:01 PM   #62
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Climate change activists. Any activists, really.
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Old 12th January 2022, 08:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
And I note that no one is mentioning the obscene salaries and respect afforded to people who play sport...
You need to look up supply and demand some time.
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Old 12th January 2022, 08:07 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You need to look up supply and demand some time.
Sportspeople are paid what the market will support. That doesn't mean it's right.
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Old 12th January 2022, 08:40 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Sportspeople are paid what the market will support. That doesn't mean it's right.
It means people place higher value on entertainment than upon other things. I spend more on streaming services than I do on church tithing, does that mean I value entertainment more than my spiritual salvation? It's nobody's place to sit in judgment on what other people chose to spend their money on (provided it's legal). If one doesn't like profession X making so much money one is completely free to not patronize that profession.

The exception would be something tax-supported, but in that case it switches to democracy--if 99% of your fellow taxpayors adore synchronized swimming and want it to be supported by the state, then that's the will of the people. You can flip the bird at the Esther Williams Memorial Sync-or-Swim Stadium when you pass by.
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Old 12th January 2022, 08:46 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It means people place higher value on entertainment than upon other things. I spend more on streaming services than I do on church tithing, does that mean I value entertainment more than my spiritual salvation? It's nobody's place to sit in judgment on what other people chose to spend their money on (provided it's legal). If one doesn't like profession X making so much money one is completely free to not patronize that profession.

The exception would be something tax-supported, but in that case it switches to democracy--if 99% of your fellow taxpayors adore synchronized swimming and want it to be supported by the state, then that's the will of the people. You can flip the bird at the Esther Williams Memorial Sync-or-Swim Stadium when you pass by.
The amount of money spent on professional sports could fix global poverty, probably several times over. But in this market-driven capitalist society we have no choice but to go where the invisible hand directs us. Doesn't mean I can't complain.
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Old 12th January 2022, 09:06 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The amount of money spent on professional sports could fix global poverty, probably several times over.
And the amount of money spent on space exploration could make significant inroads in combating illiteracy. Everybody has opinions on what matters and what doesn't, and the priorities that ought to be set on each of them.

Quote:
But in this market-driven capitalist society we have no choice but to go where the invisible hand directs us. Doesn't mean I can't complain.
So long as you realize that every single person reading your complaints has their own opinions which are exactly equal in value to your own.
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Old 12th January 2022, 10:59 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
So long as you realize that every single person reading your complaints has their own opinions which are exactly equal in value to your own.
That value, of course, being nothing. But what are we here for if not to argue over our opinions?
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Old 13th January 2022, 01:21 AM   #69
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In Mexico each profession has members tooting their own horns on how that profession carries the nation. Military and police are probably as poorly paid as mechanic or teacher. Even GP doctors are relatively paupers with only specialists like neurosurgeon being noteworthy.

But if prestige and desirability are the big measure its a political career. It also pays the best depending on how flexible one is in the moral compass.

I have worked service jobs and grunt labor most of my life. If it paid low and my long hours made a manager look good I probably did it for a while.

I did seem to not get a coal mining job somehow. I suppose I should be pleased to miss that experience.
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Old 13th January 2022, 02:00 AM   #70
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Only repeating what I have heard from someone else, but I am told bus drivers in Israel enjoy a higher social status than they do elsewhere in the world, a result of how they bussed Irgun fighters around during the Palestine Emergency, and later elements of the Israeli army.
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Old 13th January 2022, 03:35 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I've been fascinated by how these things have changed over the years.

A friend worked in Germany for a while as an Engineer (micro-electronics) and was amazed at how much respect he was given for his achievements.

In Australia? People would ask him if he could fix their car for free.
NB. He works in medical engineering and has two post graduate degrees in biomedical engineering, and is qualified as a Doctor (i.e. holds both medical degrees as required to be a general practitioner).

And people ask him if he can fix their car? What the **** is wrong with these people?
The term "engineer" has become incredibly debased in many countries (Germany is one of the exceptions) to mean some vaguely technical job, rather than a serious, highly skilled, well-trained one.

Nurse is going the same way here, despite the move to degree level entry (don't get me started on that and how it was implemented, nor the state of nurse training), with many folk routinely referring to healthcare assistants as nurses...

It's a facet of the exaggerated job title to make folk look more important rather than just paying them properly thing.
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Old 13th January 2022, 04:40 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You need to look up supply and demand some time.
Unfortunately the theories behind that assume an unconstrained rational market, buyers and sellers, in the real world this never happens. At best it is a useful "rule of thumb" but should not be used as if it is a proven theory.
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Old 13th January 2022, 04:43 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Unfortunately the theories behind that assume an unconstrained rational market, buyers and sellers, in the real world this never happens. At best it is a useful "rule of thumb" but should not be used as if it is a proven theory.
Oh really?

We are talking about sport here. Sport is pretty close to a perfect market where proven skill is rewarded accordingly.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:12 AM   #74
sarge
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Journalists. A lot of people seem to think journalists are a special class of superior citizen.
Once true, I think that has completely reversed in the US in fewer than 2 decades. Among our rabid right, which now constitutes nearly 50%, Journalists are loathed.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:26 AM   #75
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What jobs are venerated where I live, and is this veneration justified?

Soldiering.* No. Proportional to the costs, the US Military does very, very little protecting the US from foreign invaders. US Soldiers are paid very well, receive among the very best benefits possible, and are not in harms way more than firefighters (for example).

Policing. No, emphatically. US Police, emboldened by the doctrine of Qualified Immunity, actively and regularly interfere with citizens exercising constitutional rights. Our cops are anti-America.

Athletes. Meh. To the extent that they are generated for their skill at whatever sport they play, sure. They are elite at something. Go ahead and engage in a little bit of worship. I am often tickled when a (invariably Republican) spouts the ‘shut up and dribble’ nonsense when a prominent athlete dares express an opinion a social issue.

Teachers. Meh. Their service is invaluable, but they aren’t particularly hard to produce and our supposed shortage isn’t nearly as bad as teachers unions would have you believe and their pay isn’t universally low.




*I was one. There are quite a few suck factors about the job, but pay, benefits, and average time exposed to danger are not among them.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:40 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm an (retired) engineer. It's not exactly veneration, but I have tremendous respect for the many skilled production workers like machinists, welders, and mechanics I worked with over the years.
Management, not so much.
Likewise. 43 years in buildings mechanical engineering. Engineers can learn a lot from the trades people that actually work to turn their designs into reality.

I think that most of the public has little idea what design engineers actually do, compared to lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc., because most people never come in contact with engineers in a professional capacity. Most of people probably think that engineers drive locomotives.

And over my career I became firmly convinced that engineers make the absolute worst managers. They are predominantly promoted into management based on seniority with little to no management training or experience and then left to sink or swim. Although I do have one friend who has both an engineering degree and an MBA. He runs a consulting office and is excellent at his job. I still do a little work for him on the side.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:38 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
While I appreciate your point of view, absent a universal basic income the other thing we need is jobs. In today's world economy, people need to work. If the only jobs that were available were the ones that got things done and made decisions, there wouldn't be enough jobs for everyone. There would be millions of unemployed people. So we create jobs. Sure, some of them are B-Ark. Maybe even a lot of them. But every person who is doing a B-Ark job is one who is not unemployed. We don't need fewer B-Ark jobs, we need more.
Also it isn't like the B-Ark people were useless to their society, as it was wiped out because of a lack of telephone sanitizers. Proving that the jobs are merely perceived as useless.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:45 AM   #78
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Nurses.

They're even called "angels" sometimes. Can't get much more venerated than that.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:46 AM   #79
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Are we talking venerated by themselves or venerated by other people?
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:46 AM   #80
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Yes
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