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Old 13th January 2022, 06:48 AM   #81
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Fighter Pilots and a lot of doctors come as close as reasonably possible to literally thinking they are God.

And it's weird it's not classic raw egotism, although that's still there in a lot of them. It's pure, simple, raw self-importance.
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:07 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Nurses.

They're even called "angels" sometimes. Can't get much more venerated than that.
Yeah - over here they are venerated - falsely in my mind. Having so much contact with nurses over the last 10 years or so the "angels" are far and few between.
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:42 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah - over here they are venerated - falsely in my mind. Having so much contact with nurses over the last 10 years or so the "angels" are far and few between.
Oh come on who else is going to try and sell essential oils to patients on the side?
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:51 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Fighter Pilots and a lot of doctors come as close as reasonably possible to literally thinking they are God.

And it's weird it's not classic raw egotism, although that's still there in a lot of them. It's pure, simple, raw self-importance.
I think you can find massive egos in any profession. I've known minimum-wage-earning retail workers who had just as inflated sense of self-importance as the most egotistical surgeon. I've known middle managers, insurance agents, retail workers, public school teachers, military officers, military enlisted, nurses, pilots, call center employees, chefs, waiters, firefighters, tour guides, and even a professional harp-player who each thought they were professionally amazing and worthy of veneration by the rest of the public. Hell, I know people who've been unemployed for years who believe they are the pinnacle of excellence in professionalism.

And another thing--a lot of those professions listed here as ones people think are venerated are also treated pretty horribly. Nurses, in particular--yes, some people waffle on about how great they are...but then other people literally throw literal feces at them when they're doing their job. Nurses come in for a lot of abuse; people aren't always at their nicest when they're sick, and nurses are handy targets. Also the military: yeah, you hear a lot of hype and praise but much of it is along the lines of general, theoretical "support our troops!" bumper stickers...but when it comes to an actual person they're not always treated nicely. Maybe it's changed since I was a kid and my dad was in the Navy, but some places we lived we were looked down upon, being military (even an officer) was considered low-class.
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:58 AM   #85
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I think the issue is that we lump both, to use an example, an inner city Level 3 Trauma Nurse who's basically functioning as a battlefield medic and my customer base (who's job consists of sitting a desk surrounded by Hummel Figurines and printed out Minion Memes 99% of the time) under the same title.
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:59 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
What jobs are venerated where I live, and is this veneration justified?

Soldiering.* No. Proportional to the costs, the US Military does very, very little protecting the US from foreign invaders. US Soldiers are paid very well, receive among the very best benefits possible, and are not in harms way more than firefighters (for example).

Policing. No, emphatically. US Police, emboldened by the doctrine of Qualified Immunity, actively and regularly interfere with citizens exercising constitutional rights. Our cops are anti-America.

Athletes. Meh. To the extent that they are generated for their skill at whatever sport they play, sure. They are elite at something. Go ahead and engage in a little bit of worship. I am often tickled when a (invariably Republican) spouts the ‘shut up and dribble’ nonsense when a prominent athlete dares express an opinion a social issue.

Teachers. Meh. Their service is invaluable, but they aren’t particularly hard to produce and our supposed shortage isn’t nearly as bad as teachers unions would have you believe and their pay isn’t universally low.




*I was one. There are quite a few suck factors about the job, but pay, benefits, and average time exposed to danger are not among them.
I guess its luck of the draw. My friends little brother graduated high school in 2002, joined the army, and was promptly seriously wounded in Iraq.

Another friend is in the Air Force, and its like the sweetest gig of all time what with the benefits, pension etc. Oh and he gets to fly F-16's out of Ellington AFB.

ETA: and the amount of money going to athletes is getting seriously out of hand... but if they weren't making it the owners would charge what they could get anyways, leagues would still demand the same from TV packages, and they'd be richer. Ticket prices would be lower.

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Old 13th January 2022, 08:12 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think the issue is that we lump both, to use an example, an inner city Level 3 Trauma Nurse who's basically functioning as a battlefield medic and my customer base (who's job consists of sitting a desk surrounded by Hummel Figurines and printed out Minion Memes 99% of the time) under the same title.
But even if you drilled down you'd find people with the exact same job title and duties and location who have different experiences of the job and different attitudes about it and their own importance. Fortunately for humanity, even total jerks can be good at their jobs.

Both my grandpa and my uncle had the same rank in the same military branch, but to meet them you'd have thought my grandpa was a retired farmer of Quaker origin and my uncle was a combination of Top Gun and Napoleon Bonaparte...despite the former being a much-decorated veteran of three wars and the latter being a desk-jockey whose defense-contractor shenanigans once attracted the attention of a Congressional investigation.
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Old 13th January 2022, 08:23 AM   #88
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Sandwich artists.
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Old 13th January 2022, 09:04 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah - over here they are venerated - falsely in my mind. Having so much contact with nurses over the last 10 years or so the somewhat jaded. Not so many angels in the bunch (wife excepted, of course )"angels" are far and few between.
Been married to a nurse for 38 years. And nurses are predominant at many social events we attend. So my view of them is somewhat jaded. Not so many angels in the bunch (wife excepted, of course )
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Old 13th January 2022, 10:03 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think you can find massive egos in any profession. I've known minimum-wage-earning retail workers who had just as inflated sense of self-importance as the most egotistical surgeon.
I know what you mean

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Old 13th January 2022, 11:47 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah - over here they are venerated - falsely in my mind. Having so much contact with nurses over the last 10 years or so the "angels" are far and few between.
Damn straight!

None of the nurses in my family (self, sister, late cousin, late mother - double qualified as a physio - late great aunt) would have ever described ourselves as "angels", preferring to be seen as competent professionals and do our jobs properly.

Personally I subscribed to the doctrine propounded by one of my old charge nurses: "Sympathy? Between **** and syphilis in the dictionary!" Not to mention that medics were there to be argued with and put back in their boxes on a regular basis to stop them getting above themselves...
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Old 13th January 2022, 11:56 AM   #92
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I like how this thread is about 50% "here's some professions people venerate" and 50% "here's some professions I despise, and I despise the people that venerate them".

Also, who was it that said the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference? Maybe despising the profession isn't such a big improvement over venerating it.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:04 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Likewise. 43 years in buildings mechanical engineering. Engineers can learn a lot from the trades people that actually work to turn their designs into reality.

I think that most of the public has little idea what design engineers actually do, compared to lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc., because most people never come in contact with engineers in a professional capacity. Most of people probably think that engineers drive locomotives.

And over my career I became firmly convinced that engineers make the absolute worst managers. They are predominantly promoted into management based on seniority with little to no management training or experience and then left to sink or swim. Although I do have one friend who has both an engineering degree and an MBA. He runs a consulting office and is excellent at his job. I still do a little work for him on the side.
My experience is different. I am not an engineer, but in my second career, I worked almost exclusively for and with engineers and eventually many worked for me. Some of the best civilian leaders I knew were engineers. Logical, outcome focused, reasonable…..just don’t let them start a staff meeting with a joke.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:23 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I guess its luck of the draw. My friends little brother graduated high school in 2002, joined the army, and was promptly seriously wounded in Iraq.

Another friend is in the Air Force, and its like the sweetest gig of all time what with the benefits, pension etc. Oh and he gets to fly F-16's out of Ellington AFB.

ETA: and the amount of money going to athletes is getting seriously out of hand... but if they weren't making it the owners would charge what they could get anyways, leagues would still demand the same from TV packages, and they'd be richer. Ticket prices would be lower.
It is indeed ‘luck’. But the average Soldier has less chance of being injured in the line of duty than many other professionals. I was an Infantryman (the real kind, not one of those light tankers) and a paratrooper for nearly 30 years. I have combat time in Panama, Iraq (first one) Iraq (second one), Afghanistan, and one lesser known excursion. My only serious injuries occurred in a car wreck (and not during my racing ‘career’).

Athletes directly generate every dime they make. I’m supportive of the share of the revenue they’ve collectively bargained for. OTOH, if the market for televised sport dried up I wouldn’t shed a tear for any unemployed former athlete.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:26 PM   #95
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I am of the opinion that cleaners and garbage collectors deserve a lot more veneration than they get.
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:35 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I am of the opinion that cleaners and garbage collectors deserve a lot more veneration than they get.
The issue is that while the work is indeed valuable, it's also relatively unskilled labor. Literally almost anyone can clean a toilet or mop a floor. Most people do it themselves, simply because they don't see the point of spending money on someone else doing it for them. You're not showering me with praise for cleaning my own bathroom, why would you shower me with praise for making a career of cleaning other people's?
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Old 13th January 2022, 05:45 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The issue is that while the work is indeed valuable, it's also relatively unskilled labor. Literally almost anyone can clean a toilet or mop a floor. Most people do it themselves, simply because they don't see the point of spending money on someone else doing it for them. You're not showering me with praise for cleaning my own bathroom, why would you shower me with praise for making a career of cleaning other people's?
Because humans are, on the whole, filthy, and do not take care of public spaces the way they do their own homes. I take my own waste to the garbage/recycling when I eat at the food court. I can't believe how many people just leave it on the table for someone else to take care of. Heck, even my mum stopped cleaning up after me forty years ago, why should I expect a perfect stranger to do it now? Yet so many people just don't care. No-one wants to take care of their own waste. They think that "away" is somewhere that you can throw something, and it will magically disappear from their life. It doesn't work like that. "Away" is always somebody's problem. And those people whose problem it is are goddamn heroes in my opinion. Without them we'd be wallowing in our own filth.

I take my hat off to the cleaners and the garbage collectors, who patiently, quietly, and repeatedly go around doing the jobs that nobody else wants to do while everyone around them pretends that they don't exist. They have my gratitude.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Because humans are, on the whole, filthy, and do not take care of public spaces the way they do their own homes. I take my own waste to the garbage/recycling when I eat at the food court. I can't believe how many people just leave it on the table for someone else to take care of. Heck, even my mum stopped cleaning up after me forty years ago, why should I expect a perfect stranger to do it now?
You don't expect a stranger to do it. That's why you pay them. But you're paying them to do a job literally anyone could do, if they wanted the money and didn't have anything better going on.
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Old 13th January 2022, 06:28 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You don't expect a stranger to do it. That's why you pay them. But you're paying them to do a job literally anyone could do, if they wanted the money and didn't have anything better going on.
So what? Most people don't. That's why those who do deserve better.
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:10 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
So what? Most people don't. That's why those who do deserve better.
You lost me. Most people don't what?
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:12 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You lost me. Most people don't what?
Do the job literally anybody can do.
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Old 13th January 2022, 07:34 PM   #102
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Arth, you're throwing water in the sea. Prestigious really Imagines that there's such a thing as unskilled work.
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Old 14th January 2022, 05:58 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Because humans are, on the whole, filthy, and do not take care of public spaces the way they do their own homes. I take my own waste to the garbage/recycling when I eat at the food court. I can't believe how many people just leave it on the table for someone else to take care of. Heck, even my mum stopped cleaning up after me forty years ago, why should I expect a perfect stranger to do it now? Yet so many people just don't care. No-one wants to take care of their own waste. They think that "away" is somewhere that you can throw something, and it will magically disappear from their life. It doesn't work like that. "Away" is always somebody's problem. And those people whose problem it is are goddamn heroes in my opinion. Without them we'd be wallowing in our own filth.

I take my hat off to the cleaners and the garbage collectors, who patiently, quietly, and repeatedly go around doing the jobs that nobody else wants to do while everyone around them pretends that they don't exist. They have my gratitude.
Absent janitors, we would not be wallowing around in our own filth. We would either clean things ourselves or invent the job ‘janitor’.

It is good and proper that you are grateful for service workers, and I sincerely wish more people were. Being grateful for people doing a job well, even an unpleasant job, isn’t veneration. Janitors and garbage men are less deserving of veneration than are professional athletes, doctors, or astronauts.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:41 AM   #104
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This thread has reminded me of the cottage industry in that sort of "Instant Vocatonal Fandom, Just Add Noun" stuff; the loose collection of shirts and mugs and posters and desk plaques and other assorted print on demand bric-a-brac with the same few boilerplate self aggrandizing sayings just with the vocation swapped out.

"I'm a [BLANK] what's your Superpower?"
"[BLANK]s get stuff done."
"Not all heroes where capes, some are [BLANK]"

and all that jazz.
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:41 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do the job literally anybody can do.
Yeah, because they don't see it as worth their time and effort. A lot of them aren't making a career of it because they have skills and experience that are more scarce and therefore pay better. Why haven't you sought out a career in custodial services?
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Old 14th January 2022, 09:45 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This thread has reminded me of the cottage industry in that sort of "Instant Vocatonal Fandom, Just Add Noun" stuff; the loose collection of shirts and mugs and posters and plaques with the same few boilerplate self aggrandizing sayings just with the vocation swapped out.

"I'm a [BLANK] what's your Superpower?"
"[BLANK]s get stuff done."
"Not all heroes where capes, some are [BLANK]"

and all that jazz.
"I'm a Girlboss what's your Superpower?"
"Girlbosses get stuff done."
"Not all heroes where capes, some are Girlbosses."

I can see it. MLM huns are another example of an occupation that gets venerated - mostly by themselves, but still. (And I'm sure there are some poor boots out on deployment, convinced their spouse back home is doing their part for the household by selling Monat or Lularoe.)
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:54 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"I'm a Girlboss what's your Superpower?"
"Girlbosses get stuff done."
"Not all heroes where capes, some are Girlbosses."

I can see it. MLM huns are another example of an occupation that gets venerated - mostly by themselves, but still. (And I'm sure there are some poor boots out on deployment, convinced their spouse back home is doing their part for the household by selling Monat or Lularoe.)
No doubt this all makes sense to you, but without spending some time researching your jargon, which I am not about to do, I have no idea what you are trying to say.
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Old 14th January 2022, 10:56 AM   #108
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"Girlboss" is a phrase a lot of MLM marketers apply to themselves.
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:04 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Girlboss" is a phrase a lot of MLM marketers apply to themselves.
That is not the only term that i don't get.
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:05 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
No doubt this all makes sense to you, but without spending some time researching your jargon, which I am not about to do, I have no idea what you are trying to say.
Sorry 'bout that! Joe's given you "Girlboss".

"MLM" is Multi-Level Marketing, the pyramid-scheme adjacent business model.

"Hun" is a patronizing term of endearment popular among girlbosses. Short for "honey".

"Boot" is a naive young Marine recruit. One of the boot stereotypes is rushing into an ill-advised marriage, often for the rather generous spousal benefits rather than any real love connection or long-term material gain. Their partner is then further stereotyped as getting heavily invested in MLMs, to the detriment of the couple's household finances and overall wellbeing.

"Monat" and "Lularoe" are two notorious MLMs.

tl;dr - Women who invest themselves in MLMs tend to venerate the occupation, far out of proportion to the merits of the occupation.

(ETA: "tl;dr" is "too long; didn't read", a shorter version of "long story short". And "ETA", of course, is "Edited To Add.")
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Old 14th January 2022, 11:34 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry 'bout that! Joe's given you "Girlboss".

"MLM" is Multi-Level Marketing, the pyramid-scheme adjacent business model.

"Hun" is a patronizing term of endearment popular among girlbosses. Short for "honey".

"Boot" is a naive young Marine recruit. One of the boot stereotypes is rushing into an ill-advised marriage, often for the rather generous spousal benefits rather than any real love connection or long-term material gain. Their partner is then further stereotyped as getting heavily invested in MLMs, to the detriment of the couple's household finances and overall wellbeing.

"Monat" and "Lularoe" are two notorious MLMs.

tl;dr - Women who invest themselves in MLMs tend to venerate the occupation, far out of proportion to the merits of the occupation.

(ETA: "tl;dr" is "too long; didn't read", a shorter version of "long story short". And "ETA", of course, is "Edited To Add.")
Explanation appreciated. Thx.
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Old 14th January 2022, 06:09 PM   #112
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In my own occupation, I found my status and/or income way overestimated. I worked for the library system for 40+ years. People were sure I was a librarian and of professional status, when what I and most of my coworkers were were city clerks. Library patrons would wonder why they hadn't seen me around the country club or at Junior League (the library branch is on the well-off edge of town.) Nope, no Library Science degree, no title, no fancy European vacations. Hard to explain to the most privileged sorts!
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Old 15th January 2022, 02:07 AM   #113
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I was a cleaner back in the day, a part time job to save for our house. Cleaning putrid supermarket floors at 6am.

I didn’t give a **** if people appreciated it let alone venerated it, but I certainly did.

To start with a filthy aisle and leave it pristine resulted in probably the most satisfying job I’ve ever had. Venerated or not.
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Old 15th January 2022, 04:05 AM   #114
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Not really a thing here in the Netherlands. Maybe footballers and some celebrities, but the 'this person must be respected because of their profession' thing is alien here.
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Old 16th January 2022, 09:49 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Janitors and garbage men are less deserving of veneration than are professional athletes, doctors, or astronauts.
Doctors and astronauts I'm with you. Professional sporticians, not so much. But I accept that this is a minority opinion and that other people value sports more than I do.

And Novak certainly hasn't done anything to improve my opinion of professional sporticians, I'll tell you that.
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Old 17th January 2022, 07:38 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Doctors and astronauts I'm with you. Professional sporticians, not so much. But I accept that this is a minority opinion and that other people value sports more than I do.

And Novak certainly hasn't done anything to improve my opinion of professional sporticians, I'll tell you that.
It really depends on how you alot your adoration.

Garbage men and janitors perform a necessary service. The job itself seems unattractive. So, if you value the contribution and venerate the contributor, then venerate Janitors.

Garbage men and janitors perform jobs that are completely lacking in need for either skill or intelligence. If you are impressed by jobs well done that only a small percentage of people can do at all, then on your scale, Janitors merit no veneration.

Athletes contribute very little of measurable worth to society. Entertainment, for some, certainly. But the ones that get on TV and make the real money are inarguably doing a difficult job better than almost any other human can. Their craft requires an innate ability and years of intense training that no other profession requires. They are unique in a way that exceeds doctors and astronauts. So, if you value a display of skill that is virtually non-existent among most humans, then you venerate professional athletes.

The veneration I don’t get is that reserved for actors. Yeah, acting convincingly is a skill that not everyone possesses and it requires practice, but doing so very well does not appear to be so rare. The best of them still require lots of ‘takes’ to get it right.

For my money, the most praise-worthy job is being a Kardashian. The pay, relative to the worth society and the difficulty of doing the job well is second to none. And after all, compensation is the only real metric of the worth of a job.
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Old 17th January 2022, 07:47 AM   #117
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It strikes me that there's a distinction between admiration and appreciation.
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Old 17th January 2022, 07:56 AM   #118
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Often I find veneration is a tacit acknowledgement that some people are not paid as much as they ought to be.

I don't "venerate" doctors or engineers because these careers are self-rewarding. Hell, it's obvious even within certain fields. Public defenders are often venerated because these are often seen as difficult and poorly paid work, meanwhile corporate attorneys are often (correctly) vilified.

Teaching is a big example where effusive praise is given as a substitute for an appropriate salary. Interesting to see this praise sour when teachers stop accepting poor working conditions and start collectively demanding better.

As a rule of thumb, any career where people are being venerated is probably one where they are being undercompensated for the work and risks they are taking.
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Old 17th January 2022, 07:56 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It strikes me that there's a distinction between admiration and appreciation.
...and I'd argue between both of those and veneration.

At least in my own mind, an occupation which is venerated results in everyone in that occupation being assumed to be a great person regardless of their personal qualities and often in the face of contrary evidence.

A venerated occupation also seems to attract the attention of politicians like flies to ****. They'll try to get into photo-ops with members of the occupation (in the hope that they can enjoy some of the halo effect that goes along with it) and will often change legislation in order to pander to members of that occupation in order to enjoy their continued support.
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Old 17th January 2022, 08:04 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Often I find veneration is a tacit acknowledgement that some people are not paid as much as they ought to be.

I don't "venerate" doctors or engineers because these careers are self-rewarding. Hell, it's obvious even within certain fields. Public defenders are often venerated because these are often seen as difficult and poorly paid work, meanwhile corporate attorneys are often (correctly) vilified.

Teaching is a big example where effusive praise is given as a substitute for an appropriate salary.

As a rule of thumb, any career where people are being venerated is probably one where they are being undercompensated for the work and risks they are taking.
I'd say that teachers are anything but venerated - at least in the experience of my parents (both teachers in the UK) and Mrs Don's parents (both teachers in the US).

As you note, teachers are poorly paid but more than that, they've got low social standing especially when you consider the level of qualifications they have to have. Politicians don't flock to be pictured next to teachers, the welfare of teachers and the support of teaching unions aren't things that politicians care about and instead of teachers influencing legislation, they're often the plaything of legislators seeking publicity by criticising "modern" teachers and instead promoting their own pet projects.

Look at the portrayal of teachers in the media in the US and US. More often than not they're timid milquetoasts and/or neurotic comparative failures.

There may be cultures in which teachers are venerated, or at least appreciated - indeed the UK 100 years ago might have been one of the - but IMO that's no longer the case.
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