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Old 9th December 2007, 08:04 PM   #1
Rodney
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Noreen Renier's Involvement in 1979 Staunton, VA Rape Case

According to a program I just watched on the Biography Channel, see http://noreenrenier.com/media/articl...newsleader.htm -- psychic detective Noreen Renier played an important role in helping solve a series of five rapes in Staunton, VA in 1979. Three officials involved in the case stated that Renier provided Staunton police with several pieces of information that were not known to the public or -- with respect to (2), (4), and (5) below -- to the police: (1) The rapist wore a stocking mask and carried a knife; (2) The rapist had a scar on his knee; (3) The rapist apologized to his victims; (4) The rapist lived close to a movie theater; and (5) The rapist's job involved a circular motion. According to the program, in response to her information the police staked out a movie theater and caught the rapist near-by. His occupation was a cement truck driver and he had a scar on his knee.

Renier has been criticized by several skeptics, including John Merrell, Gary Posner, and Joe Nickell, but I can't find a critique of this case. Does anyone know of one? Thanks.

Last edited by Rodney; 9th December 2007 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 9th December 2007, 08:25 PM   #2
krelnik
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The only thing I can find is on John Merrell's site here:

http://www.amindformurder.com/NoreenRenier.htm

Quote:
Renier has repeatedly claimed that in a rape case in the late 1970's she saw a man who drove a truck that went "round and round." After being arrested it was learned the man drove a cement mixer truck. Yet one and one don't add up to the psychic bombshell this seems --- one which Renier has cited again and again with media.

While the man did drive a cement truck, Noreen's own claim about telling anyone about the truck beforehand is completely unsubstantiated among those who heard her psychic session or reviewed her original statement for police. In fact Noreen never directly mentioned anything about a truck during her psychic sessions. Instead after drinking red wine and becoming somewhat dazed according to a law enforcement source she began drawing circles on paper. Merrell notes that "Whether she was repeatedly drawing the letter 'O' or the number zero, or perhaps paper plates, cook top controls, hub caps, coffee lids, Norelco razor heads, sink drains, bottle caps, eyeballs, or her favorite 1970's vinyl record --- we will never know. But weeks later when the man was identified as a driver of a cement mixer truck Renier suddenly identified her many scribbled circles as her foresight in seeing his cement truck. Yet this amazing bold leap has never been caught by journalists who have replicated her amazing claim for more than 25 years."
--Tim Farley
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Old 9th December 2007, 09:22 PM   #3
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A truck that goes round and round wouldn't really mean cement truck anyway. That's such a weird way to say it, it could mean anything. I was thinking of a garbage truck that went round and round it's route. Or it could be a pickup truck going in circular motions. A cement truck, hardly makes sense when you think of it because if she'd of seen the truck going round in THAT WAY, she would have said cement truck since there's not much else it could have been.
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Old 9th December 2007, 09:28 PM   #4
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Another thing, this staking out a movie theater and finding him nearby -- did she say which movie theater? Was there only one in this town? And if they staked it out, what does nearby mean? And how did they recognize him, was he wearing a mask and holding a knife or were they doing knee searches? Whole thing sounds fishy to me. Unlike the vague round and round thing, she should be able to give concrete (um excuse the pun) details about this one.
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Old 9th December 2007, 10:16 PM   #5
dirtywick
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I would have said the wheels on the bus.

If you live in a city pretty much anywhere you live "close" to a movie theater. New theaters, old classics, closed drive ins. Movie theaters work by being accessible to large groups of people, not in the middle of nowhere.

And the scar on the knee thing, that's common enough where you might even be right most of the time randomly guessing. Every woman that shaves her legs probably has a few scars on her knees, and many folks of both sexes have them from riding bikes when they were kids or just falling down or whatever. That and the elbows has got to be one of the most common places to get a scar.

And the fifth one is too easy to reverse engineer into a hit and too vague to be of any use. For real, she didn't even say truck or vehicle, just a circular motion. I could somehow fit a circular motion into every job I've ever had if I tried hard enough. I used to wash dishes, and how do you scrub pots? When I painted for cash you had to mix the paint, I was a mechanic and turned wrenches and worked on trucks with wheels that spun, etc.

I don't know, this seems pretty typical psychic detective stuff.
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Old 9th December 2007, 10:27 PM   #6
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I'm actually from Staunton, well actually I live in a small town about 10 minutes away, and yes there is a movie theater in Staunton, actually there are two. There is the Dixie Theater, and now I'm not sure if it was open in 1979 but there is the Visualite Theater. They are both about a block away from each other. So I would assume, since they psychic said "lived near a movie theater." They would have had to stake out both.

The Dixie is still a movie theater, they play movies that just left the big theaters, and also classic films, I know they use to do a John Wayne night a while back.

The Visualite fell in to disrepair for a long time, and was not open. It was recently renovated about a year or two ago and I believe they've turned it into a theater that plays nothing but foreign films, and I think they do stage plays in there now also.

Last edited by Gryphus-1; 9th December 2007 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 9th December 2007, 11:17 PM   #7
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Thanks to Tim Farley for referencing my website comments about the famous line Renier has used for years. During her original court deposition in before the 3-day trial in Oregon (where I was the defendant and lost) Renier's comments about her work in Staunton, Lynchburg, Charlotttesville and other mid-west locations was scattered and in my opinion constantly twisting about --- never providing enough information to tie anything down to a specific location, a specific time or person whom she provided information to, etc. This follows the same pattern she has used with her constant references to providing information to "them" rather than specifics. Some discussions I had then and have since had in the past 2 years help explain why she is so weak on specifics. She was "instrumental" in locating the crashed plane in Massachusetts. But she first told a reporter the work took place in Virginia. Then she told me Virginia or New York. And later told my attorney maybe Massachusetts. If she can't even clearly identify the state once and stick to it, I doubt she could get a movie theatre right either. Or much of anything else.
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Old 10th December 2007, 06:53 AM   #8
Garrette
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Rodney,

Have you filed your request for information from the Staunton Police Department or are you going to ignore that? I'm sure you can figure out how to do it, or maybe Gryphus-1 will help.

You have been repeatedly shown that information on psychics' websites is unreliable and that television shows about psychics are unreliable.

Keep some credibility, Rodney. Make the information request before you keep spamming with this type of thread.
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Old 10th December 2007, 07:50 AM   #9
Rodney
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Rodney,

Have you filed your request for information from the Staunton Police Department or are you going to ignore that? I'm sure you can figure out how to do it, or maybe Gryphus-1 will help.
I just saw the show last night, so obviously I haven't filed anything yet. Maybe I'll file eventually, but let's see what other information turns up first. By the way, what is the status of your information request about Nancy Weber? I have filed several information requests that have gone nowhere, and I see no evidence that you have done better.

Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
You have been repeatedly shown that information on psychics' websites is unreliable and that television shows about psychics are unreliable.
That's what you've claimed, but you haven't supported that claim with respect to Renier's website, Weber's website, or television shows about psychics in general. For example, regarding last night's Biography program, were the three officials that supported Renier's work on the Staunton rape case her shills? If not, how do you explain their statements supporting Renier's work in this case?

Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Keep some credibility, Rodney. Make the information request before you keep spamming with this type of thread.
Why is it "spamming" to ask questions that haven't been resolved? Gary Posner has posted on-line a "25-page chapter (containing 60 footnotes) [covering] Renier's career through 1993 . . ."; see http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_list.html Somehow, however, those 25 pages and 60 footnotes supposedly covering Renier's career through 1993 make no mention of the 1979 Staunton rape case. Further, John Merrell's treatment of this case addresses only one of the five pieces of information that the police say Renier gave them.
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Old 10th December 2007, 08:37 AM   #10
EeneyMinnieMoe
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Rodney, post your email address or PM it to me. I found an article that sheds a little bit of light on Noreen Renier's involvement.
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Old 10th December 2007, 09:12 AM   #11
Rodney
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Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe View Post
Rodney, post your email address or PM it to me. I found an article that sheds a little bit of light on Noreen Renier's involvement.
I have now received Eeney's PM, which was a front-page article from the January 23, 1980 Washington Post. According to the article:

"[The suspect] matched the description given to them by two psychics, who had offered their services during the height of the town's panic last fall. At the time, women's groups were approaching the City Council and demanding action, police were working long hours of overtime on the investigation, and civilian groups wre helping police patrol the streets in search of the assailant.

"'We were welcoming any assistance from anybody at that time,' said Sgt. Lacy King, one of two officers who directed the rape investigation. 'I have to admit that the first thought of it [using psychics] to me was weird, but when you're doing police work you've got to do a lot of things that are weird. You can't take anything for granted.'

"King said self-described psychic Noreen Renier, who teaches extrasensory perception at the University of Virginia, told police the rapist had a scar on one arm, made deliveries of some sort, and 'went round and round.' A male psychic, who said he did not wish to be named, told police the assailant lived in a brick building at the base of a hill.

"According to police, Robinson has a scar, lived in a brick house at the bottom of one of Staunton's many hills, and drove a cement delivery truck that rotated constantly in a circular motion."

So, the article is generally consistent with last night's Biography program, but contradicts it on one point by stating that the rapist had a scar on an arm, rather than on a knee. Also, the program did not mention a second psychic. I'll see what else I can find.

P.S. Eeney, I really appreciate your assistance. I tried to PM you, but your mailbox is full.
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Old 10th December 2007, 09:25 AM   #12
fls
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
According to a program I just watched on the Biography Channel, see http://noreenrenier.com/media/articl...newsleader.htm -- psychic detective Noreen Renier played an important role in helping solve a series of five rapes in Staunton, VA in 1979. Three officials involved in the case stated that Renier provided Staunton police with several pieces of information that were not known to the public or -- with respect to (2), (4), and (5) below -- to the police: (1) The rapist wore a stocking mask and carried a knife; (2) The rapist had a scar on his knee; (3) The rapist apologized to his victims; (4) The rapist lived close to a movie theater; and (5) The rapist's job involved a circular motion. According to the program, in response to her information the police staked out a movie theater and caught the rapist near-by. His occupation was a cement truck driver and he had a scar on his knee.

Renier has been criticized by several skeptics, including John Merrell, Gary Posner, and Joe Nickell, but I can't find a critique of this case. Does anyone know of one? Thanks.
Bob Carroll states that Truzzi and Lyons' book "Blue Sense" mentions this case in his article on psychic detectives. I don't have the book, so I don't know any more than that.

"Scar on the knee" is on the list of Ian Rowland's high probability guesses.

I can speak a little about the nature of the crime. I am interested in FBI profiling and I've read a number of books by John Douglas (who was one of the originators). According to him, rapists can be divided into distinct patterns. Accounts of the case would probably be sufficient to identify the "power-reassurance" ("gentleman rapist") pattern, and masking the features, carrying a weapon, and apologizing to the victim are all characteristics of this type of rapist. If someone with a mild interest in this area (me) knows this stuff, I would expect that someone with a more intense interest to be aware of it as well.

It seems unlikely (to me anyway) that she only made 5 statements to the police over the course of multiple readings. Where is all the rest of what she said?

ETA: I've now read multiple accounts from various sources, including Noreen's website, and they are quite variable in describing what she said and how much information she was given beforehand. I agree with Garrette that without reference to the original notes it won't be possible to confirm what she actually said, unless Truzzi and Lyons were able to do so for their book.

Linda

Last edited by fls; 10th December 2007 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 10th December 2007, 09:28 AM   #13
Garrette
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
I just saw the show last night, so obviously I haven't filed anything yet. Maybe I'll file eventually, but let's see what other information turns up first.
Why? Why rely on other information that by definition will not be primary source material? I can think of a reason, but it isn't favorable toward you.


Originally Posted by Rodney
By the way, what is the status of your information request about Nancy Weber? I have filed several information requests that have gone nowhere, and I see no evidence that you have done better.
To the contrary, you have seen my evidence, and I have fared better.

For cases mentioned by Weber and Lewis and English but not posited by you as "best examples" the records person at the Mount Olive Police Department can find no indication that Weber had any involvement at all.

For the one case posited by you as a "best example" -- the Muscio rape case -- the department found information but is waiting for word from the town's attorney before releasing it.

You responded to the thread and post in which I gave that update, so you are aware of this.


Originally Posted by Rodney
That's what you've claimed, but you haven't supported that claim with respect to Renier's website, Weber's website, or television shows about psychics in general.
Bollocks, balderdash, poppycock, folderol, and blather.

First, burden of proof and all that. Making a claim is not the same as providing evidence for that claim, and Renier fails miserably in providing such evidence. Note the plane crash in Massachusetts example.

Second, every single time you have presented something on this forum as having evidentiary value, it has been summarily deconstructed as having no such value at all. In those few instances where deconstruction is not possible, it is because there is a paucity of information preventing discovery of primary sources.


Originally Posted by Rodney
For example, regarding last night's Biography program, were the three officials that supported Renier's work on the Staunton rape case her shills?
Possibly. Probably not. Have you demosntrated they are not? It wouldn't be hard. Just get the case notes or the publicly releasable information. I forget; you want to see what other information is out there.


Originally Posted by Rodney
If not, how do you explain their statements supporting Renier's work in this case?
The vague statements you have referenced and the ones in Eeny's pm? Here's a possible explanation. Tell me how it is less plausible than the "Renier-is-psychic" explanation.

The match of Renier's description to the suspect was done sloppily.
This is not uncommon. Police officers show a photo of a suspect to a witness and ask "Is this the person?" A positive response seems to carry great value while in reality it has almost none. The proper method would be a "photo lineup" in which the suspect photo were mixed with photos of non-suspects, appropriately similar and dissimilar to the suspect and in which the lineup is shown to the witness only in blinded circumstances.

It would be quite easy for someone prone to belief to see a photo of the suspect and mentally match it to Renier's description. No biggie.

Did the television show eliminate this possibility? I tend to doubt it.


Originally Posted by Rodney
Why is it "spamming" to ask questions that haven't been resolved?
It is spamming when you have been here long enough to know the flaws in scenario already. My co-worker who asks me today the same thing he has every week for the past five years and who has received sufficient, supported answers every time, is a buffoon, a trouble-maker, or a spammer.


Originally Posted by Rodney
Gary Posner has posted on-line a "25-page chapter (containing 60 footnotes) [covering] Renier's career through 1993 . . ."; see http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_list.html Somehow, however, those 25 pages and 60 footnotes supposedly covering Renier's career through 1993 make no mention of the 1979 Staunton rape case. Further, John Merrell's treatment of this case addresses only one of the five pieces of information that the police say Renier gave them.
If you have an issue with Merrell, I suggest you take it up with him.

Is that one piece of information the bit about the scar being on the arm and not the knee? What do you make of that, Rodney. The scarred-knee was a significant issue demonstrating the psychic's correctness. Does it faze your belief at all that the psychic was wrong?
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Old 10th December 2007, 10:58 AM   #14
fuelair
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Given my psychic abilitiies (prove I was ever wrong!!!) I see Rodney as desperately needing to believe in "something out there". I have no idea why (mind reading is not one of my more trustworthy specialities), but I'll bet SB's hands and feet I am right!! (I win either way!!!
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Old 10th December 2007, 12:49 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Given my psychic abilitiies (prove I was ever wrong!!!) I see Rodney as desperately needing to believe in "something out there". I have no idea why (mind reading is not one of my more trustworthy specialities), but I'll bet SB's hands and feet I am right!! (I win either way!!!
Yep, Macco's razor. The most unlikely explanation must be true
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Old 10th December 2007, 10:32 PM   #16
Sherlock
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Washington Post article full of errors

I won't get into it, but the Washington Post article of 1980 is full of errors.
The statement about any reference to a cement truck which went "round and round" and related areas were all references that came AFTER the fact and never showed up in testimony offered by law enforcement officers who were in the room when Renier made her statement. It was years later that I learned that the officer who everyone seemed to indicate had made those statements was in fact a low assistant jailer completely out of his scope. He did --- oddly --- just happen to have had the same last name as a senior officer, and just happened --- I'm sure by some remarkable coincidence --- to have been directed for a quote by Renier herself.
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Old 11th December 2007, 12:44 AM   #17
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More on Staunton, including Renier's own testimony

Here’s more facts behind Renier’s Staunton case.

Multiple rapes had occurred in 1979 with 5 rapes within a six block area. Renier’s involvement was unsolicited by police.

This is supported by a comment made by Commander King of the Staunton Police Department and referenced in a newspaper article written by Julie Young and published on July 28, 1982 in Charlottesville. King states “She volunteered her services to us.”

In retrospect three items in her statements were judged “coincidental” by an officer on the case, and these were provided during pre-deposition calls to my attorney in 1985. The first was that in Renier’s visions she claimed to see the rapist’s mother cooking. The mother it was later learned worked in a restaurant, but she was not a cook. The second was that Renier indicated that the rapist lived at the bottom of a hill across from a live performing arts theatre. Near the time of this statement Renier herself was performing in a local theatre and had been involved in local Charlottesville area performances. But there were no live performing arts theatres or any visiting performers in Staunton at that time. Later however it was found the rapist did live on an elevated area of the town near the Dixie movie theatre. The first reference connecting Renier’s claim to a movie theatre --- not a performing arts theatre --- seems to have come later during a radio station interview with Renier when after-the-fact she indicated her vision had been to a movie theatre.

The third “coincidence” was that Renier claimed the rapist would be arrested before Christmas. The man was arrested on a Peeping Tom charge the week before Christmas though it was not until a follow-up on that charge that led to the rape arrest. These three coincidences came from a Staunton police officer who died 20 years ago but was directly involved in reviewing Renier’s initial answers to questions posed. The “round and round” connection stemmed solely from a pages of scribbles and circles that Renier drew on paper. There were no references to a truck, a delivery vehicle, or a cement truck until weeks after, and then the first such references appear to have been provided once again to the media by Renier herself.

Some statements in those early media stories reference a Commander King of the Staunton Police. Others note a Sergeant King. These are in fact two different men, with the Sergeant reportedly at the time active at the jail and the Commander the one directly involved with criminal cases. Some quotations from Sergeant King appear to reflect second information and one reporter told me he was steered to Sergeant King not Commander King. Why would a jailer with no first hand information be a better source?

Commander King stated in the July 1982 newspaper article --- three years after the case --- that Renier “kept seeing things going round and round.” Things. Plural.

A newspaper article by Ken Hurd in 1980 and published in Lynchburg states “It was Ms. Renier’s ‘visions’ of scars that helped the Staunton police find the man who recently was convicted of attacking women in Staunton. ‘I was lecturing at Blue Ridge Community College when a woman asked me for a reading on the man who had raped her sister,’ she said. Ms. Renier touched the ring of the woman and saw a ‘vision’ of a man with a scar on his leg. ‘Each piece of evidence I gave the police was 100 percent accurate,’ Ms. Renier said.” First scars. Then scar. Plural or singular?

But far from the 100% accurate rating Renier provided to the press --- reports now constantly referenced and examined for facts ---her testimony under oath and transcribed in court about the Staunton case reveals more concerns. On page 25 of her testimony in the 1986 Oregon trial the following exchange takes place between my attorney and Renier.

Q: Okay. Let’s turn to the state of Virginia since you live there and I assume that is where you did the greatest majority of your work, would that be accurate?

A: Yes.

Q: Let’s start with Staunton, Virginia okay? I understand that there was a series of four to five or six rapes that occurred and that you worked with the Staunton Police Department in giving them some assistance. Could you describe for me what kind of assistance you gave to the Staunton Police?

A: I gave a description of the man and maybe a scar on the body and what he did, the uniform he wore, where he lived.

Q: Let’s move back a minute if I can interrupt you. You indicated that --- you said what he did, you mean by occupation?

A: He drove a truck, I saw him driving a truck that went around and around.

Q: And you said you saw where he lived, where did he live?

A: Near a theater, this is mostly not really from recall, it is from I remember reading in one of the press clippings that I usually loose, a theater near the hills, whatever, something like that.

Q: And did you describe what he looked like?

A: I probably did.

Q: Do you remember how you described him?

A: No.

Q: Mrs. Renier, there is an article that appeared in the Ashland Tidings on October 10th, I’m sure you’re familiar with it since it was one of the reasons why we are sitting here today. It was written by John Darling, do you recall having that interview with him?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: He says in here that, “Using her psychic gifts Mrs. Renier was instrumental in identifying a man who was later convicted of multiple rapes in Staunton, Virginia.” Do you think that sentence is accurate?

A: Well, I didn’t say anything like that, I probably gave him press clippings of the case and he ---

Q: Do you think that is accurate?

Mr. Werdell [Renier’s attorney]: Well, let her finish.
The Deponent: --- wrote the story.

Q: I will ask you my question again: Do you think it’s accurate?

A: No, I don’t think it is accurate.”

[Skipping in transcript to further advanced questioning]

Q: Mrs. Renier, do you recall what information is provided in your press clippings that were given to John Darling that relate to the Staunton, Virginia rapes?

A: There are several clippings that relate to the Staunton case, I don’t recall which ones he had or he took with him.

Q: Do you consider yourself responsible for your promotion materials?

A: You mean the press clippings?

Q: Yes.

A: I’m not responsible for what people write about me, no.

Q: If you provide that material to another member of the press for him to then write an additional article about do you feel any responsibility to let him know that the material you are giving him may not be accurate?

A: I don’t think it is 100 percent accurate anything that is written about anyone.

Q: Let me ask you my question again: Do you feel responsible --- a responsibility to provide either accurate material to the press or to alert them if some of the material you are giving them is not accurate?

A: The material I give to the press is not for them to copy, it is for them to get an idea of what I have done to ask me questions about it.

Q: Did John Darling give you any --- ask you any questions about the multiple rapes in Staunton, Virginia?

A: Not that I remember.

Q: You don’t remember what your press clippings had to say about your participation in that particular investigation?

A: I have a lot of press clippings.

Q: Do you review them for accuracy and take them out if they are not accurate?

A: I would have no press clippings.

Q: And you don’t in any way indicate to the new reporter that this may or may not be accurate?

A: No.”

I hope this revealing exchange assists in helping people understand how Renier helped create media stories about the case --- and actually then actually came to depend on those very stories to refresh her own statements even during testimony --- while admitting that statements of being “instrumental” were by her own testimony in 1986 “inaccurate.” Yet in a slew of media stories over the next 20 years the quote being “instrumental” was referenced to Renier time and time again. In the same testimony during in the same courtroom Renier claimed she was “instrumental” in finding the crashed plane near Gardner, Massachusetts. Was she again just re-living her own press clippings?

On a side note, Noreen Renier’s attempt to declare bankruptcy to eliminate the $39,558+ federal judgment owed to me has yet to be approved. I have filed lengthy concerns with federal officials showcasing what I believe are unreported assets and income not shown in her filing, and those concerns are being examined now. -John Merrell

Last edited by Sherlock; 11th December 2007 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 11th December 2007, 12:57 AM   #18
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Thank you amindformurder, I've been interested in this ever since reading this thread the other day. I've lived around Staunton all my life, and I have never heard about this case before, or Noreen Reiner before.

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Old 11th December 2007, 01:14 AM   #19
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For full information see www.amindformurder.com
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Old 11th December 2007, 08:14 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Why? Why rely on other information that by definition will not be primary source material? I can think of a reason, but it isn't favorable toward you.
Because I don't want to fall out of favor with my dear friend Garrette, I just made an inquiry with the Staunton City Hall regarding Noreen Renier's involvement in the 1979 rape case.
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Old 11th December 2007, 08:17 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
Because I don't want to fall out of favor with my dear friend Garrette, I just made an inquiry with the Staunton City Hall regarding Noreen Renier's involvement in the 1979 rape case.
Thank you. If they're anything like Mount Olive, we'll have an answer in time for the 4th of July bash.
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Old 11th December 2007, 08:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Thank you. If they're anything like Mount Olive, we'll have an answer in time for the 4th of July bash.
The Tricentennial?
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Old 17th December 2007, 12:46 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
Because I don't want to fall out of favor with my dear friend Garrette, I just made an inquiry with the Staunton City Hall regarding Noreen Renier's involvement in the 1979 rape case.
I just received a response from Lisa Klein of the Staunton Police Department. It reads, in relevant part:

"We respectfully decline to provide the requested records. They are considered part of the case files or reports in a criminal investigation. Such records are excluded from the provisions of the Virginia Freedom of Information Act, as provided in Virginia Code Section 2.2-3706 (F) (1)."
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Old 17th December 2007, 01:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
I just received a response from Lisa Klein of the Staunton Police Department. It reads, in relevant part:

"We respectfully decline to provide the requested records. They are considered part of the case files or reports in a criminal investigation. Such records are excluded from the provisions of the Virginia Freedom of Information Act, as provided in Virginia Code Section 2.2-3706 (F) (1)."
Thank you. This is interesting. They seem to have taken a hardline approach to something which they have the authority to release. As the case is no longer pending (unless I am mistaken), I do not understand their reasoning.

Well, if you're not going to pursue it further, Rodney, I suppose that leaves the state of the evidence as such:

According to sources other than Merrell:

1. Renier never said the rapist drove a cement truck; she drew circles.

2. Renier said the rapist made deliveries.

3. Renier said the rapist had a scar on his knee. Later it was scars on his leg. At another time it was a scar on his arm.

4. Renier said the rapist lived near a theatre.

5. Sergeant King said Renier's input was significant.

6. Renier's description of the rapist matched the photo of the rapist. (I addressed this early in the thread)

According to Merrell:

1. Sergeant King is different from Commander King who actually had involvement in the case and said nothing about Renier having significant input.

2. Renier said she saw the rapist's mother cooking. The rapists mother worked in a restaurant but did not cook.

3. Renier said the rapist lived at the bottom of a hill across from a live theatre, but the rapist actually lived in an "elevated" area near a movie theatre.

4. Renier said the rapist would be arrested before Christmas; this was true.

5. The statements about the cement truck (circles, and "round and round" really and about the scar) came after the investigation and not before.


Absent the case files, there is nothing to indicate that Renier had anything to do with solving the case or making any psychically-obtained statement.
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Old 17th December 2007, 02:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Thank you. This is interesting. They seem to have taken a hardline approach to something which they have the authority to release. As the case is no longer pending (unless I am mistaken), I do not understand their reasoning.
When I clicked your link, I received: "Sorry, the code section you requested is not available." Can you summarize?
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Old 17th December 2007, 02:56 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
When I clicked your link, I received: "Sorry, the code section you requested is not available." Can you summarize?
Hmmm... it didn't do that when I put it in originally. It was a link to the text of the Virginia Freedom of Information Act.

2.2-3706 is the part allowing noncompliance with a request for information. What it says is that custodians of certain types of records "may withhold" them from public release despite other provisions within the law. It does not say say that custodians must withhold them.

Subsection (F) (1) is the section describing the types of material that may be withheld relevant to this case:

"Complaints, memoranda, correspondence, case files or reports, witness statements, and evidence relating to a criminal investigation or prosecution."

So the Staunton PD is within the law in withholding the documents, but they would also be within the law if they did not withhold them.
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Old 17th December 2007, 07:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Hmmm... it didn't do that when I put it in originally. It was a link to the text of the Virginia Freedom of Information Act.

2.2-3706 is the part allowing noncompliance with a request for information. What it says is that custodians of certain types of records "may withhold" them from public release despite other provisions within the law. It does not say say that custodians must withhold them.

Subsection (F) (1) is the section describing the types of material that may be withheld relevant to this case:

"Complaints, memoranda, correspondence, case files or reports, witness statements, and evidence relating to a criminal investigation or prosecution."

So the Staunton PD is within the law in withholding the documents, but they would also be within the law if they did not withhold them.
Bureaucracies generally don't give up information willingly -- I've been down this path before.
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Old 19th December 2007, 10:51 PM   #28
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The Staunton Police Department has repeatedly been connected with activities with Noreen Renier. I have little doubt that they have also been a source of income for Renier for prior work on missing cases that they have requested. As such I suspect the department is quite protective of in their own involvement in the paranormal.
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Old 20th December 2007, 06:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by amindformurder View Post
The Staunton Police Department has repeatedly been connected with activities with Noreen Renier. I have little doubt that they have also been a source of income for Renier for prior work on missing cases that they have requested. As such I suspect the department is quite protective of in their own involvement in the paranormal.
Can't say I blame them, but it leaves us back at the point at which the only evidence in support of Renier actually having her claimed abilities or actually having provided substantive help via psychic means is unsupported anecdote.
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Old 20th December 2007, 06:54 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by amindformurder View Post
The Staunton Police Department has repeatedly been connected with activities with Noreen Renier. I have little doubt that they have also been a source of income for Renier for prior work on missing cases that they have requested.
In cases other than the Robinson rape case? Which ones?

Originally Posted by amindformurder View Post
As such I suspect the department is quite protective of in their own involvement in the paranormal.
It's also possible that the Staunton Police Department doesn't want to release any information because it would make Renier look better than the Department. However, I suspect it's just a cautious bureaucracy.
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Old 20th December 2007, 06:56 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Can't say I blame them, but it leaves us back at the point at which the only evidence in support of Renier actually having her claimed abilities or actually having provided substantive help via psychic means is unsupported anecdote.
What do you mean by "unsupported"? The three officials that appeared on the Biography program don't count?
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Old 20th December 2007, 07:18 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
It's also possible that the Staunton Police Department doesn't want to release any information because it would make Renier look better than the Department. However, I suspect it's just a cautious bureaucracy.
Pffftt!!

You have no imagination. It's also possible that the Staunton Police Department doesn't want to release any information because to do so would reveal a torrid affair between the Chief and Noreen under the pretense of providing 'anomalous sources of sensory input' (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

Linda
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Old 20th December 2007, 07:26 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
What do you mean by "unsupported"? The three officials that appeared on the Biography program don't count?
Who were the three officials?

What did their notes on the case say? (The ones written at the time or beforehand.)

Linda

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Old 20th December 2007, 08:43 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
Who were the three officials?

What did their notes on the case say? (The ones written at the time or beforehand.)

Linda
The officials were two police detectives and a prosecutor who worked the case. I obviously have not seen their notes.
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Old 20th December 2007, 08:49 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
What do you mean by "unsupported"? The three officials that appeared on the Biography program don't count?
No. As Merrell has pointed out, one of the three was a jailer and not involved with the case. The other two have offered nothing beyond generalities, filtered through a sympathetic medium. As already discussed, there are plausible alternative explanations for the claims, and the hits weren't hits.

Absent the case file and notes, the claims are unsupported. Just as Linus Pauling's claims about vitamin C are unsupported, despite his pedigree. I stand by that.
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Old 22nd December 2007, 12:45 AM   #36
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Noreen Renier: Staunton Police connection strong

For those who wonder just how strong some of the "relationships" have been between Renier and retired police officials and friends of the Staunton Police department try this link: http://stauntoncpaaa.org/newsletter05.htm Scroll and look at the article on Renier about 1/3 of the way down.

I may need to be the one to help pry off this lid at some point. It may however be about to be ripped open by others as sources of income for police psychics particularly in Virginia are now under very, very close scrutiny when they've been paid by law enforcement officials directly --- and not reported to the IRS.

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Old 22nd December 2007, 08:04 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by amindformurder View Post
For those who wonder just how strong some of the "relationships" have been between Renier and retired police officials and friends of the Staunton Police department try this link: http://stauntoncpaaa.org/newsletter05.htm Scroll and look at the article on Renier about 1/3 of the way down.
According to the website: "Our primary function is to organize and coordinate activities and resources that support the Staunton City Police Department and our community." If the Association believes that Renier has assisted the Police Department and wants to invite her to speak to them, what's the problem?

Originally Posted by amindformurder View Post
I may need to be the one to help pry off this lid at some point. It may however be about to be ripped open by others as sources of income for police psychics particularly in Virginia are now under very, very close scrutiny when they've been paid by law enforcement officials directly --- and not reported to the IRS.
Do you have any evidence?
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Old 22nd December 2007, 11:11 AM   #38
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Noreen Renier: Alcohol use and cash

In testimony Renier has stated that on at least one criminal case she was handed cash.

From the her deposition of March 1986:

Q: And you indicated that you were paid on this one?
A: Yes.
Q: Who paid you?
A: Joe.
Q: Out of his own pocket?
A: He got money from the FBI in Atlanta.
Q: Okay. So was it a check?
A: Cash.
Q: The IRS doesn't like that. Do you have any records to show that you were paid by the FBI?
A: No.
Q: Were you just lecturing at the Academy and Joe gave you some money or how is it you got paid?
A: He drove to my house and gave me the money.
Q: And he said, "This is from the FBI."
A: "Here is what we owe you."
Q: He paid you in cash?
A: Yes.
[Advancing in the transcript]
Q: What other cases have you worked on for the FBI?
A: I really can't recall any others.
Q: So when it said several for the Federal Bureau of Investigation that may be one of the exaggerations you were talking earlier?
A: Yes.

Do law enforcement officials working with psychics report such cash transactions and why would they be paid in cash? Does Noreen Renier report such cash transactions that may not have been reported to the IRS by those handing out cash payments?

But there may also a larger question about her ability to properly communicate coherently while providing her visions about criminal activities to police. In the late 1970's when at 32 or 33 years of age, divorced and attractive, Renier has admitted interacting with officers in casual settings while drinking (alcohol) and as I have stated on my website Renier has also been shown on video recordings portraying paranormal characteristics while drinking red wine. One former Virginia Sheriff described one such psychic session as "sauced ramblings."

Who drove her home in such a condition? Did one or more of the officers participating in these informal "psychic vision balls" become a prince and properly take her by the hand and drop her off at her home for public safety? Or is there a quiet unanswered reason for support offered by some officers?

Are public criminal inquiries and statements normally allowed while tossing back a glass? If so, I would question the very ability to properly convey critical information with any credibility from the person drinking and rambling off to those standing around.

To even attempt to link such settings as a basis for paranormal psychic foresight or abilities is a true representation on just how far supporters of the paranormal have sunk into beneath the muck.

Renier claims "I subjected myself to five years of laboratory testing at PRF and at Duke University. . . in the test for psycho kinesis, the ability to influence physical matter, I was put in front of a computerized light system and asked to alter the light pattern by using my mind. I scored quite high in everything." Five years. FIVE years.

Why then when questioned during the same testimony did these exchange occur:

Q: Don't you throughout your promotions indicate that you were tested at Duke University?

A: I was tested at Duke University as well as the Psychical Research Foundation.

Q: So you participated in research at Duke University?

A: One experiment, yes.

Q: What department was that in?

A: I don't know the department, I know the test that they did on me at Duke.

Q: What kind of tests were they?

A: They had a machine in their laboratory that could measure the wave lengths of the brain as a person was in different states of consciousness and they would have me just be Noreen and talk, they would watch where it went on the monitor, and then they would have me switch and be psychic and they saw the changes in my brain waves, the pattern or --- I don't understand exactly, but it shows that I reached another part of my mind when I was psychic, that was taken at Duke University. Some of the people from the other institutes were there involved with it.

Q: But you don't know what department it was?

A: No.

Q: When was it?

A: It had to be maybe '84, '85, something like that.

Q: Last year or the year before?

A: No, it had to be probably '83, '84, '83.

Q: Was it a result of those tests that they found that you tested so highly?

A: No, I don't think so, I think that was one of the exaggerations the girl that wrote that up did, I think they thought it was good but I don't think --

Q: So these were actually tests for psychic ability?

A: I described the test, is that what you're talking about?

[Advancing after her attorney injects that "I will instruct you not to answer what the purpose was if you don't know."]

Q: So is it safe to say then that you didn't go there to have your psychic ability tested?

A: No.

Q: How did you happen to go there, did they call you in or --

A: The other -- Psychical Research Foundation had been working with me for three years and I would say doing research with my mind and they thought this would be a good research project.

Q: For Duke University?

A: In conjunction with Duke.

Q: Do you know if that was part of the psychology department that was doing that?

A: I could find out for you. [Renier never followed up to any of her similar statements to provide further information.]

Q: Was there any particular person at Duke University that you worked with?

A: There was two or three from Duke.

Q: Do you remember the names?

A: No.

Q: Do you remember anything about them that would help us identify them?

A: No.

Q: Were you paid for that?

A: No.

Q: How long were you there?

A: Two, three days.

Yet Renier claims "five years of laboratory testing at PRF and at Duke University. . . in the test for psycho kinesis, the ability to influence physical matter, I was put in front of a computerized light system and asked to alter the light pattern by using my mind. I scored quite high in everything."

The more you know about Renier's own testimony the more the exaggerations appear to pile up.

And this is a person some use as an example of paranormal abilities? I would equate that to the last fingers being thrust above the quicksand just seconds before the last piece of the body sinks forever to the depths below. -John Merrell
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Old 22nd December 2007, 01:46 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by amindformurder View Post
In testimony Renier has stated that on at least one criminal case she was handed cash.

From her deposition of March 1986:

Q: And you indicated that you were paid on this one?
A: Yes.
Q: Who paid you?
A: Joe.
Q: Out of his own pocket?
A: He got money from the FBI in Atlanta.
Q: Okay. So was it a check?
A: Cash.
Q: The IRS doesn't like that. Do you have any records to show that you were paid by the FBI?
A: No.
Q: Were you just lecturing at the Academy and Joe gave you some money or how is it you got paid?
A: He drove to my house and gave me the money.
Q: And he said, "This is from the FBI."
A: "Here is what we owe you."
Q: He paid you in cash?
A: Yes . . .
How does this prove your point? You stated:

"I may need to be the one to help pry off this lid at some point. It may however be about to be ripped open by others as sources of income for police psychics particularly in Virginia are now under very, very close scrutiny when they've been paid by law enforcement officials directly --- and not reported to the IRS."

It's unclear from the above whether the case for which Renier says she was paid was in Virginia or somewhere else. Also, did the attorney ask how much she was paid? There's a big difference between a nominal payment and a large one.
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Old 22nd December 2007, 04:54 PM   #40
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One or more of these will likely open up and explore my concerns in the next few weeks and answer some issues.

1. An IRS response group now examining information I have provided.
2. The U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Charlottesville where Noreen Renier has filed.
3. The U.S. Bankruptcy Court Trustee.
4. The U.S. Justice Department examining the information I have recently provided.

What difference does it make to your argument where the case(s) have occurred where she was paid cash? And what difference does it make to your argument how much was charged or paid? Is she less psychic or of less of a concern depending on the amount of cash she collected? When did dollars charged get into a formula? Isn't receiving even a $100 bill directly from the FBI an indication of a real payment and wouldn't any unreporting of such income be a concern?

If not, just what kind of figure do you believe is the least undisclosed amount that is of no concern for the average American psychic to not report? Is it acceptable to avoid reporting even $250 or $350 in a year (including one near in the early 1980's) in which Renier claims to have made only about $500 in total income? Cash is cash. And possible unreported income is just that.

And currently I believe her unreported assets in her 2007 bankruptcy filing are far beyond the levels that federal officials will find suitable for avoiding payment of her debts to me. That has nothing to do with her psychic ability but if she is found lacking in credibility in her bankruptcy declaration then I believe it further lends support to her tendency to exaggerate and misreport. But it is certainly enlightening to see someone charge on in her defense regardless of the facts available.

Last edited by Sherlock; 22nd December 2007 at 04:58 PM. Reason: First line missing
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