ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 29th December 2007, 05:58 PM   #1
Mr. Skinny
Alien Cryogenic Engineer
 
Mr. Skinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,180
Dr. Frank's (homeopathic) Pet Pain Spray

Just saw a TV ad for Dr. Frank's Pet Pain Spray. It a homeopathic solution that you spray into the pet's water bowl. It's supposed to relieve all joint pain in the animal.

I looked at the web page, http://www.petpainspray.com and clicked on the "Formula" link, and I have admit, it's more forthcoming than most homeopathic products:

Quote:
Dr. Frank's Joint Relief for Dogs and Cats Homeopathic Formula
Equal parts HPUS Byronia Alba 6C, Calcarea Carbonica 30C, Calcarea Phosphorica 6C, Causticum 30C, Mercurius vivus 30C, Rhus toxicodendron 6C, Ruta graveolens 30C, Silicea 6C, Sulphur 6C.

Inactive Ingredients: Distilled Water, Vegetable Glycerin, Citric Acid, Potassium Sorbate and Natural Flavors. The letters “HPUS” indicate that the active ingredients in this product are officially monographed in the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the United States.

Understanding the above formula
The ingredients in the formula are identified by Latin names for the natural ingredients that are, for the most part, plants or minerals. The X means they were diluted by a factor of 10 (one part ingredient to 10 parts water). And 6 X means that it was diluted six times by a factor of 10 so the final dilution will be .000001 times the original solution of the ingredient which is ten millionths of the original solution. And 30 X means that it was diluted thirty times by a factor of 10. These are extremely small concentrations of active homeopathic ingredients and a reason for the safety of homeopathic ingredients.
Plenty of testimonials and other claims though.
__________________
U.S.L.S 1969-1975
"thanks skinny. And bite me. :-) - The Bad Astronomer, 11/15/02 on Paltalk
"He's harmless in a rather dorky way." - Katana
"Deities do not organize, they command." - Hokulele
Mr. Skinny is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2007, 06:24 PM   #2
fishbait
Raggin' the Blues
 
fishbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,025
Dr. Frank is hawking the same spray remedy for people with joint pain.
Dr. Frank's No Pain Spray as seen on TV!

The Disgruntled Chemist has a blog about it.
__________________
"I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" ************. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are." --Bill Hicks
fishbait is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2007, 06:48 PM   #3
TjW
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,097
A homeopathic pet? Would that be an aquarium that used to have fish in it?
TjW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2007, 07:10 PM   #4
Mr. Skinny
Alien Cryogenic Engineer
 
Mr. Skinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,180
Originally Posted by fishbait View Post
Dr. Frank is hawking the same spray remedy for people with joint pain.
Dr. Frank's No Pain Spray as seen on TV!

The Disgruntled Chemist has a blog about it.
Thanks, fishbait. Thought I'd run across something new.

I suppose it is equally effective on humans as it is on pets.
__________________
U.S.L.S 1969-1975
"thanks skinny. And bite me. :-) - The Bad Astronomer, 11/15/02 on Paltalk
"He's harmless in a rather dorky way." - Katana
"Deities do not organize, they command." - Hokulele
Mr. Skinny is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2007, 07:12 PM   #5
LibraryLady
Emeritus
 
LibraryLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,612
Considering I have a sick budgie who has to go for a pain shot tomorrow, this is just salt in the wound.
__________________
What would Hüsker Dü?
LibraryLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2007, 08:18 PM   #6
steve s
Illuminator
 
steve s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,663
Why does it seem like Byronia Alba is in every homeopathic remedy?

Steve S.
__________________
"Nature abhors a moron." -- H. L. Mencken
steve s is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2007, 09:52 AM   #7
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,550
Polypharmacy, lack of individualisation.....

Do a proper controlled objective trial on this which shows no effect and you'll have every homoeopath within earshot denouncing the method as "not proper homoeopathy". Of course it won't work because of the above objections. You're deliberately trialling something that can't possibly work in order to discredit the power of homoeopathy.

But will these people actually criticse the guy who's selling it? Not a chance.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2007, 03:44 PM   #8
Faithless
Student
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 31
I thought for a placebo to work, the patient had to know they were taking it? Good luck getting a placebo to work on a dog... idiots!
Faithless is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2007, 04:06 PM   #9
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,468
So how do you tell whether it's working? "Fluffy, on a scale of 1 to 10..."
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2007, 04:15 PM   #10
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 25,564
Originally Posted by Faithless View Post
I thought for a placebo to work, the patient had to know they were taking it? Good luck getting a placebo to work on a dog... idiots!

Remember: it won't be the dog that states an opinion about whether the treatment is working. It can still work as a placebo if the people treating the dog and reporting apparent improvements in the dog's condition are aware that the dog is taking it. You'll still get reporting bias, wishful thinking etc. coming into play. Check out this case report, for example.

If it makes the owner happier, the dog may even get some small benefit from it, I suppose.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

Last edited by Mojo; 30th December 2007 at 04:16 PM.
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2007, 04:24 PM   #11
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,550
I read an interesting paper looking at the efficacy of a herbal remedy for arthritis in dogs. To cut a long story short, the blinding was inadvertently compromised, but more so for the vets examining the dogs than for the owners.

Subjective assessment of the dogs by the vets gave a significant result in favour of the herbal remedy.

Subjective assessment of the dogs by the owners did not show statistical significance, but the authors commented, gosh, look, nearly....

Objective measurement of the dogs' gaits by means of force plates showed absolutely no difference between herbal remedy and placebo.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2007, 11:47 AM   #12
Codger
Student
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Faithless View Post
I thought for a placebo to work, the patient had to know they were taking it? Good luck getting a placebo to work on a dog... idiots!

I see a couple of people have already explained this to you and with more courtesy than you deserve in my opinion. Perhaps you should do some research into homeopathic veterinary treatment before you denounce other people as idiots.

Anyhow, I think I'll stick to glucosamine, chondroitin, msm and vitamin C supplements for my Labrador's arthritic joint.
Codger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2007, 03:59 PM   #13
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,468
Originally Posted by Codger View Post
I see a couple of people have already explained this to you and with more courtesy than you deserve in my opinion. Perhaps you should do some research into homeopathic veterinary treatment before you denounce other people as idiots.

Anyhow, I think I'll stick to glucosamine, chondroitin, msm and vitamin C supplements for my Labrador's arthritic joint.
So perhaps I misread Faithless' post, which I took to be a suggestion that since homeopathy is essentially placebo, it's idiotic to expect a dog to get much kick out of it. Are you, then, supporting homeopathic veterinary medicine, or do you simply think that Faithless was condemning it too strongly?
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2007, 05:59 PM   #14
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,550
Originally Posted by Codger View Post
I see a couple of people have already explained this to you and with more courtesy than you deserve in my opinion. Perhaps you should do some research into homeopathic veterinary treatment before you denounce other people as idiots.

Anyhow, I think I'll stick to glucosamine, chondroitin, msm and vitamin C supplements for my Labrador's arthritic joint.

I don't know what msm is (except last time I asked it was "main stream media"), but the rest of that is woo. Can he not tolerate NSAIDs?

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2007, 06:01 PM   #15
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,550
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So perhaps I misread Faithless' post, which I took to be a suggestion that since homeopathy is essentially placebo, it's idiotic to expect a dog to get much kick out of it. Are you, then, supporting homeopathic veterinary medicine, or do you simply think that Faithless was condemning it too strongly?

I interpreted that post as an assertion that the apparent efficacy of this sort of intervention in animals indicates that it is not the placebo effect at work.

Which of course is a fallacy.

Perhaps Faithless will return and express himself with less ambiguity.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2007, 09:32 PM   #16
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 25,564
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I interpreted that post as an assertion that the apparent efficacy of this sort of intervention in animals indicates that it is not the placebo effect at work.

Which is a claim frequently made by proponents of homoeopathy.

Also in babies and small children. As if "Mummy'll kiss it better" doesn't work.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2007, 10:16 PM   #17
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,468
OK, perhaps I misread faithless's post. Basing my reading on the assumption that there was no real effect, it didn't occur to me that he/she might be taking the homeopathic side. Now I guess we'll have to await a clarification, if faithless would be so kind! I'll probably end up having to eat my words...(again)...ptui!
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st January 2008, 01:52 PM   #18
supercorgi
Dog Everlasting
 
supercorgi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,536
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't know what msm is (except last time I asked it was "main stream media"), but the rest of that is woo. Can he not tolerate NSAIDs?

Rolfe.
Thanks Rolfe. Many of my pet supply catalogs offer glucosamine and chondroitin pills for dog arthritis. I once took glucosamine and got no benefit from it. My dog's over 8 years old now and is starting to hurt in his legs (he's a little short legged Cardigan), but I didn't want to waste the money on something that was pretty much woo. If he gets worse, I'll go to my vet for real medicine!
__________________


Last edited by supercorgi; 1st January 2008 at 01:54 PM.
supercorgi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st January 2008, 06:43 PM   #19
Tiktaalik
Half True Scotsperson
 
Tiktaalik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,191
I believe glucosamine was originally developed for race horses, then extrapolated to dogs and people (no source).

Glucosamine is my secret woo weakness. On the advice of a regular vet about 8 years ago, I gave glucosamine - chondroitin to my 9 1/2 year old cattle dog who was having pain walking & couldn't tolerate drugs. She got better & remained active until about 2 weeks from her death at age 15 1/2. Of course, I have no objective evidence that it was the g-c. Could have been a long-lasting injury that just got better at around that time. Happily, whatever it was, the improvement was dramatic, going from her turning around & heading for the house about 200 yards out to hiking several miles with me. The good thing is, it doesn't appear that I did her any harm by giving it to her...

I cancelled my subscription to Dog Fancy after something like 12 years because they added a woo-medicine section which they appeared to be giving as much weight as veterinary articles, etc. I realize they just react to what sells, but I didn't want to patronize that.
Tiktaalik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2008, 01:42 PM   #20
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,550
Oh, I've never heard any suggestion that it's harmful. Just ineffective in double-blind trials. And one of these substances is much too large to be absorbed by the gut in any case. (Can't remember the details but I've read a lot by a colleague in the US who has looked into it, and can recite all the theory and all the studies.)

Equine medicine is probably the most woo-laden of everything, and racehorse medicine the most woo-laden part of equine medicine. In this I include misapplication and misunderstanding of mainstream things as well as native woo. Sometimes I just despair!

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2008, 12:31 PM   #21
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,808
Originally Posted by Mr. Skinny View Post
Just saw a TV ad for Dr. Frank's Pet Pain Spray. It a homeopathic solution that you spray into the pet's water bowl. It's supposed to relieve all joint pain in the animal.

I looked at the web page, http://www.petpainspray.com and clicked on the "Formula" link, and I have admit, it's more forthcoming than most homeopathic products:



Plenty of testimonials and other claims though.
What gets me is that they explain what say 6X would mean but all their dillutions are at least 6C, or twice as many orders of magnitude.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2008, 12:34 PM   #22
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,808
Wait a minute, you are diluting this in the pets water with out proper Succussion? The fools!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2008, 12:54 PM   #23
Calcas
Master of my Domain
 
Calcas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,466
Homeopathic pet products?

Genius.

Why rob a bank when you can legally steal...?
Calcas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd January 2008, 05:32 PM   #24
Mr. Skinny
Alien Cryogenic Engineer
 
Mr. Skinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,180
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What gets me is that they explain what say 6X would mean but all their dillutions are at least 6C, or twice as many orders of magnitude.
I hadn't noticed the X vs. C discrepancy, pt. Maybe I'll drop them an email.
__________________
U.S.L.S 1969-1975
"thanks skinny. And bite me. :-) - The Bad Astronomer, 11/15/02 on Paltalk
"He's harmless in a rather dorky way." - Katana
"Deities do not organize, they command." - Hokulele
Mr. Skinny is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th January 2008, 01:08 AM   #25
phaed
Scholar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 50
...

Last edited by phaed; 4th January 2008 at 01:15 AM.
phaed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2008, 05:23 PM   #26
Codger
Student
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 33
Hmmm, food for thought here:

I interpreted Faithless' post as an attack on those (me included) who think homeopathy is bunk. I'll be happy to retract my comments if I read it wrong.

@ Rolfe - msm is, according to the label on my dog's tablets, methyl sulphonyl methane. Now I freely admit that I have no idea if this is good, bad or ugly but this, along with the aforementioned glucosamine and chondroitin, seems to be what many vets advise as a supplement for older, arthritic dogs.

I don't buy this stuff from the vet so there is no financial benefit to them in recommending it, which makes me feel that it may be good impartial advice. On the other hand, your dismissal of it as woo makes me wonder if I'm throwing my hard earned away? Am I being suckered here?

I have to say that if there was any chance that this stuff helped my dog in any slight way I would cheerfully pay for it for the rest of her life. Unfortunately it is nigh on impossible to quantify any improvement so in the short term at least I'll keep on with the supplements and see how she does.
Codger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2008, 07:01 PM   #27
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,468
Originally Posted by Codger View Post
Hmmm, food for thought here:

I interpreted Faithless' post as an attack on those (me included) who think homeopathy is bunk. I'll be happy to retract my comments if I read it wrong.

@ Rolfe - msm is, according to the label on my dog's tablets, methyl sulphonyl methane. Now I freely admit that I have no idea if this is good, bad or ugly but this, along with the aforementioned glucosamine and chondroitin, seems to be what many vets advise as a supplement for older, arthritic dogs.

I don't buy this stuff from the vet so there is no financial benefit to them in recommending it, which makes me feel that it may be good impartial advice. On the other hand, your dismissal of it as woo makes me wonder if I'm throwing my hard earned away? Am I being suckered here?

I have to say that if there was any chance that this stuff helped my dog in any slight way I would cheerfully pay for it for the rest of her life. Unfortunately it is nigh on impossible to quantify any improvement so in the short term at least I'll keep on with the supplements and see how she does.
It seems faithless is not going to resolve the question. Perhaps I could find a nice juicy crow, roast it, and we split it. Long side of the wishbone gets the white meat (if there is any on a crow).
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2008, 03:19 AM   #28
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,550
Originally Posted by Codger View Post
@ Rolfe - msm is, according to the label on my dog's tablets, methyl sulphonyl methane. Now I freely admit that I have no idea if this is good, bad or ugly but this, along with the aforementioned glucosamine and chondroitin, seems to be what many vets advise as a supplement for older, arthritic dogs.

I don't buy this stuff from the vet so there is no financial benefit to them in recommending it, which makes me feel that it may be good impartial advice. On the other hand, your dismissal of it as woo makes me wonder if I'm throwing my hard earned away? Am I being suckered here?

I just looked up "methyl sulphonyl methane" on Google, and got a lot of links to "health food supplement" web sites. This seemed to be the most dispassionate reference (at least on the first page). It's certainly pegged as "alternative" medicine. A cursory glance suggested the evidence was similar to most of these things - doubtful, negative from impartial controlled trials, with positive results being presented by the manufacturer.

Interstingly, it's also called "DMSO" on that page. DMSO (dimethyl sulphoxide) I know about very well. It is a standard additive to pharmaceuticals to enable them to be absorbed across the skin. In a Dick Francis novel (Trial Run) the murder weapon is an equine anaesthetic called Immobilon which is known to be extremely toxic to man (preferred suicide method for the veterinary profession, sad to say), but which is not absorbed through intact skin. In the novel, the villain mixes it with DMSO and pours the resulting cocktail on to the victim's skin. When the book came out, I was having coffee with the Head of Pharmacology at the vet school, and casually asked him if that would actually work. He visibly paled, and gasped "where did you dream that one up?" I mentioned it was published in a best-seller, and he went positively green. I'm not absolutely certain this is the same stuff though.

Anyway, I never heard of this stuff being used for arthritis.

I just checked up in the Compendium of Data Sheets, which gives every product with a licence for animal use in the UK. I find such joys as "Garlic and Fenugreek Tablets", "Greenleaf Tablets" and "Mixed Vegetable Tablets" listed under "Locomotor (including navicular and osteoarthritis)", but not a syllable about chonroitin, glucosamine or this MSM. I looked up quite a few odd-looking proprietary names (including "Meflosyl", which I thought sounded promising), but they all turned out to be standard pharmaceuticals (Meflosyl is injectable flunixin, an NSAID).

I wouldn't suspect your vet of deliberately scamming you by any means. Quite a lot of vets have been subjected to marketing for these preparations, marketing which all sounds quite convincing and professional, and it's not even obvious that the stuff isn't licensed from some of the literature distributed (though lines like "food supplement" should be a bit of a clue). And vets are as vulnerable to the wishful thinking aspect of placebo as anyone else, and a few coincidental or even imaginary subjective improvements can convince them that "there's something in it", and they go on recommending it in good faith.

There's a vet called David Ramey who has made quite an extensive study of the literature on glucosamine and chondroitin, and he's certainly of the opinion that it's woo. One of these two is in any case too big a molecule to be absorbed orally, and will be broken down by the digestive system. This page of a web site David Ramey is involved with has quite a number of abstracts.

Quite honestly, if there was efficacy there, I'd have expected it to be demonstrated and proper pharmaceutical licences acquired well before now. But no, all the "literature" is on "alternative" "food supplement" web sites.

I'd ask your vet about actual anti-inflammatory or other proven efficacious treatments for arthritis. Some dogs are intolerant of anti-inflammatories, but even in these cases, there are some licensed alternatives that can be considered.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 8th January 2008 at 03:26 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2008, 04:05 PM   #29
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 9,446
Was it tested on animals?
__________________
Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2008, 04:28 PM   #30
Faithless
Student
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I interpreted that post as an assertion that the apparent efficacy of this sort of intervention in animals indicates that it is not the placebo effect at work.

Which of course is a fallacy.

Perhaps Faithless will return and express himself with less ambiguity.

Rolfe.
Let me clarify my position here...

I was asserting homeopathic medicines only "work" because they are a placebo, therefore the dog wouldn't know they were taking any sort of "medicine", meaning it would have no benifit to the dog at all. (Because homeopathic "medicines" = placebo)

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, lol
Faithless is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2008, 08:12 PM   #31
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,468
Originally Posted by Faithless View Post
Let me clarify my position here...

I was asserting homeopathic medicines only "work" because they are a placebo, therefore the dog wouldn't know they were taking any sort of "medicine", meaning it would have no benifit to the dog at all. (Because homeopathic "medicines" = placebo)

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, lol
That's what I thought you meant. Thanks for clarifying. The crows are lean and tough this time of year.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2008, 04:52 AM   #32
Codger
Student
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Faithless View Post
Let me clarify my position here...

I was asserting homeopathic medicines only "work" because they are a placebo, therefore the dog wouldn't know they were taking any sort of "medicine", meaning it would have no benifit to the dog at all. (Because homeopathic "medicines" = placebo)

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, lol
I read it the wrong way so apologies for my previous comments.
Codger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2008, 05:01 AM   #33
Codger
Student
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I just looked up "methyl sulphonyl methane" on Google, and got a lot of links to "health food supplement" web sites. This seemed to be the most dispassionate reference (at least on the first page). It's certainly pegged as "alternative" medicine. A cursory glance suggested the evidence was similar to most of these things - doubtful, negative from impartial controlled trials, with positive results being presented by the manufacturer.

Interstingly, it's also called "DMSO" on that page. DMSO (dimethyl sulphoxide) I know about very well. It is a standard additive to pharmaceuticals to enable them to be absorbed across the skin. In a Dick Francis novel (Trial Run) the murder weapon is an equine anaesthetic called Immobilon which is known to be extremely toxic to man (preferred suicide method for the veterinary profession, sad to say), but which is not absorbed through intact skin. In the novel, the villain mixes it with DMSO and pours the resulting cocktail on to the victim's skin. When the book came out, I was having coffee with the Head of Pharmacology at the vet school, and casually asked him if that would actually work. He visibly paled, and gasped "where did you dream that one up?" I mentioned it was published in a best-seller, and he went positively green. I'm not absolutely certain this is the same stuff though.

Anyway, I never heard of this stuff being used for arthritis.

I just checked up in the Compendium of Data Sheets, which gives every product with a licence for animal use in the UK. I find such joys as "Garlic and Fenugreek Tablets", "Greenleaf Tablets" and "Mixed Vegetable Tablets" listed under "Locomotor (including navicular and osteoarthritis)", but not a syllable about chonroitin, glucosamine or this MSM. I looked up quite a few odd-looking proprietary names (including "Meflosyl", which I thought sounded promising), but they all turned out to be standard pharmaceuticals (Meflosyl is injectable flunixin, an NSAID).

I wouldn't suspect your vet of deliberately scamming you by any means. Quite a lot of vets have been subjected to marketing for these preparations, marketing which all sounds quite convincing and professional, and it's not even obvious that the stuff isn't licensed from some of the literature distributed (though lines like "food supplement" should be a bit of a clue). And vets are as vulnerable to the wishful thinking aspect of placebo as anyone else, and a few coincidental or even imaginary subjective improvements can convince them that "there's something in it", and they go on recommending it in good faith.

There's a vet called David Ramey who has made quite an extensive study of the literature on glucosamine and chondroitin, and he's certainly of the opinion that it's woo. One of these two is in any case too big a molecule to be absorbed orally, and will be broken down by the digestive system. This page of a web site David Ramey is involved with has quite a number of abstracts.

Quite honestly, if there was efficacy there, I'd have expected it to be demonstrated and proper pharmaceutical licences acquired well before now. But no, all the "literature" is on "alternative" "food supplement" web sites.

I'd ask your vet about actual anti-inflammatory or other proven efficacious treatments for arthritis. Some dogs are intolerant of anti-inflammatories, but even in these cases, there are some licensed alternatives that can be considered.

Rolfe.
Many thanks for the info and your take on the subject. When I researched it originally I found quite a few veterinary sites which endorsed these type of supplements but also sold them, which automatically set off my spider senses. Our own vet, who we have been seeing for many years, also endorsed them but made no attempt to sell us any so we felt more confident about it.

I'll check out the link you included.

Thanks again.
Codger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2008, 06:32 AM   #34
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,550
Originally Posted by Faithless View Post
Let me clarify my position here...

I was asserting homeopathic medicines only "work" because they are a placebo, therefore the dog wouldn't know they were taking any sort of "medicine", meaning it would have no benifit to the dog at all. (Because homeopathic "medicines" = placebo)

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, lol

That's actually true. In animals the effect is, so to speak, "placebo effect by proxy", where it is the owner or carer's perception of the animal's condition which has altered.

Now if it is a person who is sick, and you can alter their perception of their condition so that they believe they are less sick, this is, arguably a benefit to them. However, altering the perception of the owner or carer doesn't do a blind bit of good to the poot bloody animal. Which is why I am so opposed to veterinary homoeopathy.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 9th January 2008 at 06:33 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2008, 07:36 AM   #35
YouBelieveWHAT?
Muse
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 991
I picked this gem up from the original post.

/Quote/
These are extremely small concentrations of active homeopathic ingredients and a reason for the safety of homeopathic ingredients.
/end Quote/

Isn't one of the fundamentals of homoeopathy that the more you dilute, the stronger it gets?
__________________
I was planning to study Clairvoyance in school, but as I knew I would fail the exam, decided against it.

And thanks to SkepticJ:
We'd outgrown the fables, I knew. The sun isn't Apollo's chariot, of course, it's a star that began burning when a god said "Let there be light". Man was not created from clay by Zeus, he was created from clay by Yahweh. Hades didn't restore Euridice to life, please. That would be absurd. Jesus did, of course, restore Lazarus to life.... What morons we were before. How wise we are now. - Dale McGowan
YouBelieveWHAT? is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2008, 09:10 AM   #36
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,468
I bought some homeopathic insecticide the other day. I was concerned about safety, but the salesman assured me it wouldn't harm a fly.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2008, 01:16 AM   #37
Faithless
Student
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I bought some homeopathic insecticide the other day. I was concerned about safety, but the salesman assured me it wouldn't harm a fly.
LOL
Faithless is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2008, 01:50 AM   #38
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 25,564
Originally Posted by YouBelieveWHAT? View Post
I picked this gem up from the original post.

/Quote/
These are extremely small concentrations of active homeopathic ingredients and a reason for the safety of homeopathic ingredients.
/end Quote/

Isn't one of the fundamentals of homoeopathy that the more you dilute, the stronger it gets?

Yes, but that's only for the desired effects. The remedy magically knows what effects are desired, and whether it's being used as a treatment or in a proving.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2008, 02:12 AM   #39
YouBelieveWHAT?
Muse
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 991
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes, but that's only for the desired effects. The remedy magically knows what effects are desired, and whether it's being used as a treatment or in a proving.
And it also knows that - also magically - any contaminants in the original liquid are supposed to be ignored.
__________________
I was planning to study Clairvoyance in school, but as I knew I would fail the exam, decided against it.

And thanks to SkepticJ:
We'd outgrown the fables, I knew. The sun isn't Apollo's chariot, of course, it's a star that began burning when a god said "Let there be light". Man was not created from clay by Zeus, he was created from clay by Yahweh. Hades didn't restore Euridice to life, please. That would be absurd. Jesus did, of course, restore Lazarus to life.... What morons we were before. How wise we are now. - Dale McGowan
YouBelieveWHAT? is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2008, 08:28 AM   #40
Maxie
New Blood
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 18
For what it's worth...I don't believe those types of ads, but I was down to my last hope on getting help for my Golden. 2 months ago, he was finally down after a year of limping. He could barely get up to go do his business, then it took him forever to get back to his bed. I've spent a fortune trying to help him. His hips barely worked. X-rays showed nothing drastic, just one of the hip bones a little thin. Gave him bone and joint supplements, anti-inflammatory meds and etc for over a year. He was in so much pain, I would lie down beside him and just hug him, I cried for him and even prayed for him.

So in December 2007 I saw this ad for the pain spray. Well I had tried everything else and this was very inexpensive so what the heck. I ordered it. After about 3 weeks of spraying it into his water I had decided it wasn't going to work. But I did not stop putting it in his water. Then, one day he got up to greet me. Slowly, a little toddering, but he came to me. Each day he was walking better. A few days later he was walking and without a limp. He was a bit frisky, hadn't seen that in almost a year. We now go for walks around the property, slowly, and he rests once in awhile. His hips are still not strong, but I see improvement each day. A miracle? Did the prayers work or the spray. I don't know but all I know is my Golden is a new dog. I will keep using the spray. Much cheaper than any meds from the vet.

Last edited by Maxie; 19th January 2008 at 08:33 AM. Reason: repeated a sentence.
Maxie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.