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Old 26th February 2008, 05:26 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
You missed it, of course. http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist1.htm#7 may get you started!
Quote:
When 33 000 tons of mass above in WTC1 falls down 3.7 metres due to gravity and crushes all the columns abt 340 kWh of energy is produced by gravity.
Thanks, that's what I was looking for.
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Old 26th February 2008, 09:16 AM   #442
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Why on earth would you try to use Kilowatt-hours to describe the energy? Why not use KCal or something equally irrelevent? Electron-volts anyone?
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Old 26th February 2008, 09:27 AM   #443
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Just stick to the truth movement unit of choice: pounds of HMX equivalent.

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Old 26th February 2008, 10:05 AM   #444
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Engineers should be the last people on earth to complain about units!

Especially North American engineers!

Fahrenheit, Btu, horsepower, gallons, psi, slugs,..... good grief!
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:11 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Engineers should be the last people on earth to complain about units!

Especially North American engineers!

Fahrenheit, Btu, horsepower, gallons, psi, slugs,..... good grief!
As long as you use relevant units, you're ok. The reason there are so many units, is that there are many different ways to approach and solve a problem. we just like to cover our bases.

Besides, we have to come up with real world applications for all the crazy theoretical stuff the scientists blab about.
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:11 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Minadin View Post
Why on earth would you try to use Kilowatt-hours to describe the energy? Why not use KCal or something equally irrelevent? Electron-volts anyone?
For the same reason some idiot vendor gave me torque gradient in (I kid you not)
milligram millimeters/degree
I'm a 'NAmericun. anna ninjaneer.
Even I know that's wrong...
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:13 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Engineers should be the last people on earth to complain about units!

Especially North American engineers!
I've been a bit nervous about asking this, because the implications are too horrible to contemplate, but... I've seen steel strength rated in KSI on this forum and elsewhere. Does that really stand for what I think it stands for?

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Old 26th February 2008, 10:19 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I've been a bit nervous about asking this, because the implications are too horrible to contemplate, but... I've seen steel strength rated in KSI on this forum and elsewhere. Does that really stand for what I think it stands for?

Dave
[ mode. Flame suit=On}
Not everything metric is bad.
The use of Kilo for 1000 is a good thing.

Yes, a Kilopound is 1000 lbf.
It is much easier to write, and for management to read, 48.7 KSI than it is to write 48700 psi, and muchpetter than 3.27E8 Pa.

The Pa is a unit so small as to be worthless....

Although finance wienies keep wanting to use M for 1000
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:27 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Engineers should be the last people on earth to complain about units!

Especially North American engineers!

Fahrenheit, Btu, horsepower, gallons, psi, slugs,..... good grief!
Translation: "I hate all engineers because I know a few of them that I don't like."
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:29 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Translation: "I hate all engineers because I know a few of them that I don't like."
"And because they call me on it when I let emotions override analysis"
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:42 AM   #451
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KSI = Kips per square inch.

A "kip" = 1,000 lbs. Short for Kilo-pound as Rwguinn mentioned. When we're doing heavy stuff it's easier to just drop all those extra zeros. You do basically the same thing when you don't weigh yourself in ounces.
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:46 AM   #452
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I throw a fish to the sharks and out they come!

So predictable, ....... like Pavlov's dog!
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:50 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Engineers should be the last people on earth to complain about units!

Especially North American engineers!

Fahrenheit, Btu, horsepower, gallons, psi, slugs,..... good grief!
By the by, I'm not an engineer. That should be clear from this thread. And, I'm well-schooled in the use of SI / metric units thanks to some European university training. So I can complain about units as much as I want then, right?

Is fish-throwing a major sport in Canada or . . .

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Old 26th February 2008, 10:57 AM   #454
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Minadin:

You're NOT an engineer!

Congratulations!

Fish-throwing? Well only at engineers, politicians, lawyers and other such varmints!
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Old 26th February 2008, 11:11 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Minadin View Post
....?

Is fish-throwing a major sport in Canada or . . .

Only during the winter, which lasts from August 12 through July 9
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Old 26th February 2008, 11:19 AM   #456
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When'd this digress into a Lew Zealand thread?

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Old 26th February 2008, 11:48 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by e^n View Post
This certainly makes you an engineer, but not a structural engineer. You could get in extremely serious trouble for claiming such a thing in the US as you are representing yourself as having training and experience which you do not. I am glad at least that you admit as much despite your rambling attempt at rationalisation.
Anybody can call himself an engineer but I have never met a structural engineer. Structures are just parts of various fields of engineering and I happen to know a little about steel structures - beams, pilllars, plates, etc, put together that happen to become a floating structure of some kind. And the loads put on these structures. And how the structures behave due to these loads. And how damaged structures behave to same loads.
Floating structures are often damaged and are thus analyzed - why? How? Very interesting. Cause, effect, you know!
Steel buildings on land are rarely damaged and it seems there is a great lack of expertize in that field of analysis, particularly in the USA. To suggest, without any evidence like Nist does, that a steel structure tower collapsed due to release of potential energy (gravity) (in turn caused by fires) that exceeded the strain energy of the structure is infantile nonsense. You need more energy than just gravity to demolish the WTCs' steel structure.
BTW - have you found any specific errors in my WTC analysis for children on my web site? Just copy/paste the relevant part with your comments and we can have a serious discussion.
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Old 26th February 2008, 11:55 AM   #458
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Not just anyone can call himself an engineer here in the USA. You have to have a certain amount of education with a professional degree from an accredited engineering school, a pass the professional engineer's exam in your selected field, if I'm not mistaken.

You don't believe in structural engineers? That they exist?
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Old 26th February 2008, 11:59 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Anybody can call himself an engineer but I have never met a structural engineer. Structures are just parts of various fields of engineering
I'm sure that the IStructE will just love to hear that. Have you contacted them?

Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
I happen to know a little about steel structures
Correct

Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Steel buildings on land are rarely damaged and it seems there is a great lack of expertize in that field of analysis, particularly in the USA. To suggest, without any evidence like Nist does, that a steel structure tower collapsed due to release of potential energy (gravity) (in turn caused by fires) that exceeded the strain energy of the structure is infantile nonsense. You need more energy than just gravity to demolish the WTCs' steel structure.
Wrong

Quote:
BTW - have you found any specific errors in my WTC analysis for children on my web site? Just copy/paste the relevant part with your comments and we can have a serious discussion.
It's been done. You just ignored it.
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Old 26th February 2008, 12:02 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by Minadin View Post
Not just anyone can call himself an engineer here in the USA. You have to have a certain amount of education with a professional degree from an accredited engineering school, a pass the professional engineer's exam in your selected field, if I'm not mistaken.

You don't believe in structural engineers? That they exist?
http://www.istructe.org/index.asp?bhcp=1

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Old 26th February 2008, 12:07 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I'm sure that the IStructE will just love to hear that. Have you contacted them?



Correct



Wrong



It's been done. You just ignored it.
Will you stop with the entrenched in reality stuff? Have you no imagination?
(Did I just ask that of an architect? Oh, crud!)

and one might inform heiwa that pasting complete articles gets you a naughty-gram from the mods and the removal of the offending cut-and-paste--so we can't paste what's wrong with his "for children" Bull...
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Old 26th February 2008, 12:26 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
BTW - have you found any specific errors in my WTC analysis for children on my web site? Just copy/paste the relevant part with your comments and we can have a serious discussion.
Might I perhaps respectfully remind of this here thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...=101791&page=8
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Old 26th February 2008, 01:04 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Anybody can call himself an engineer but I have never met a structural engineer.
Well, I've never met a truther. There.
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Old 26th February 2008, 02:54 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by Minadin View Post
Not just anyone can call himself an engineer here in the USA. You have to have a certain amount of education with a professional degree from an accredited engineering school, a pass the professional engineer's exam in your selected field, if I'm not mistaken.
Not quite. In aerospace, for example, most of us don't take the PE exam. It's basically not a factor in this field. It's much more important for structural engineers involved in buildings (as opposed to the "structures guys" in aerospace), and for engineering consultants like you'd see in the Yellow Pages.
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:02 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Not quite. In aerospace, for example, most of us don't take the PE exam. It's basically not a factor in this field. It's much more important for structural engineers involved in buildings (as opposed to the "structures guys" in aerospace), and for engineering consultants like you'd see in the Yellow Pages.
I resemble that.
I did get my PE when I was caught up in my first lay-off in 1991.
But you cannot legally offer your services to the general public as an engineer without the PE.
You can also offer service to an employer, in an engineering capacity, where it is generally understood that a PE is not a requirement but an engineering degree and/or experience are.

Very fine distinction, and probably not even above the noise level for most people, but once the lawyers get involved...
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:10 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Engineers should be the last people on earth to complain about units!

Especially North American engineers!

Fahrenheit, Btu, horsepower, gallons, psi, slugs,..... good grief!
You love them. You just don't understand them.

Have you always been challenged with math?

It probably accounts for your dislike.

Someday you may be able to work them out.

Good luck with your education.
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:16 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
You love them. You just don't understand them.

Have you always been challenged with math?

It probably accounts for your dislike.

Someday you may be able to work them out.

Good luck with your education.

Ouch...
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:45 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
I throw a fish to the sharks and out they come!

So predictable, ....... like Pavlov's dog!
From what I've seen, you are equally as predictable.
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Old 26th February 2008, 03:48 PM   #469
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Calm down, you three.
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Old 27th February 2008, 01:30 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Minadin View Post
Why on earth would you try to use Kilowatt-hours to describe the energy? Why not use KCal or something equally irrelevent? Electron-volts anyone?
If you read my article you find that I use Joule (J) for energy and translated it into kWh for easy understanding (I write for children), e.g. that the given amount (340 kWh) was similar to burning 40 litres of diesel oil in an engine to pull the top part of WTC1 back in position!

Evidently I do not believe that the WTC1 upper part above the initiation zone fell free fall as a rigid or stiff body at all as alleged by various experts like FEMA, NIST, Bazant, Seffen, etc. What you see on all videos is that the upper part is broken into pieces before anything happens at the initiation zone and below! Not very rigid, to say the least.

A broken, upper part consisting of many small pieces cannot then initiate further damage incl. global collapse of the total building!

The mystery is of course why the intact, upper part breaks up before initiation of the collapse down below! The upper part was not damaged! It was only full of smoke from the fire below. It is a pity that FEMA, NIST & Co did not use their eyes when looking at all these videos.
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Old 27th February 2008, 02:08 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post

A broken, upper part consisting of many small pieces cannot then initiate further damage incl. global collapse of the total building!
Oh my goodness, how incredibly wrong you are. Clearly Ronan Point means nothing to you, and that's just for starters.

Seriously, you need to start studying structural engineering and building fabric failure before you make an even bigger fool of yourself. Here's a book which most second year architecture students study in the UK as part of their basic structures course:

http://www2.wwnorton.com/catalog/fall01/031152.htm

Maybe when you've started to understand how to properly analyse building failures we can consider things like the progressive collapse requirements within the Eurocodes and other technical documents which those of us in this field use and understand.



Quote:
The mystery is of course why the intact, upper part breaks up before initiation of the collapse down below! The upper part was not damaged! It was only full of smoke from the fire below. It is a pity that FEMA, NIST & Co did not use their eyes when looking at all these videos.
Logic is taking a holiday, I see.
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Old 27th February 2008, 04:10 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Anybody can call himself an engineer but I have never met a structural engineer.
Your lack of awareness that this field of engineering even exists should be enough evidence that you are not qualified in it and should revise your statements. I find it hard to believe you have sat the relevant courses and been educated in the appropriate stuff without anyone ever mentioning 'structural engineers'.

Originally Posted by Heiwa
BTW - have you found any specific errors in my WTC analysis for children on my web site? Just copy/paste the relevant part with your comments and we can have a serious discussion.
Sure, so far I haven't seen you defend anything on that page but a quick look reveals you to be trying to calculate failure in pure compression, which is not what happened. You should revise your theory to include the action of a 6kips inward pull and potentially greater heating of the columns than you had previously specified.
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Old 27th February 2008, 06:33 AM   #473
Heiwa
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Originally Posted by e^n View Post
Sure, so far I haven't seen you defend anything on that page but a quick look reveals you to be trying to calculate failure in pure compression, which is not what happened. You should revise your theory to include the action of a 6kips inward pull and potentially greater heating of the columns than you had previously specified.
6 kips inward pull? Greater heating of the columns? But that is, if it happened, before initiation and up in the initiation zone and allowing the whole upper block to drop free fall (the initiation) ... causing alleged pure compression of the intact structure below.

Or according Seffen - that the potential energy released by the mass above - the upper block - resulted in dynamical "over-loading" (he must mean compression) of the undamaged lower columns by a factor of 30 (!) compared to their static load capacity at impact and transmits it to the structure below and shakes it into pieces.

There was no inward pull or heating of the structure below. It could only be compressed ... and according my calculations the result would just be a bump, compression, and then ... springing back again.

I got the idea when my grandchildren were jumping in my bed.

You see - the static load capacity of the bed before impact is zero! There is no static load on it! The 'hammer' has not yet hit. You cannot compare a dynamic load with zero static load!

And when I look at the videos I see that the upper block of WTC1 is breaking up before it touches the structure below. Funny impact! Don't you see the tower exploding after that? It is not a gravity driven collapse you see.

Please, copy/paste any sentence in my article and point out what is wrong ... if you can find any? That's the music! I am just the piano player.

Last edited by Heiwa; 27th February 2008 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 27th February 2008, 07:07 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by Minadin View Post
Why on earth would you try to use Kilowatt-hours to describe the energy? Why not use KCal or something equally irrelevent? Electron-volts anyone?
I converted the Kilowatt-hours value (http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm) and it gave the equivalent of detonating 0.29 tons of explosives. That's not proof in itself, (and it doesn't give the units) but I would not class that as a negligible quantity. I don't find it implausible that that would cause some degree of structural damage.
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Old 27th February 2008, 07:16 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
6 kips inward pull? Greater heating of the columns? But that is, if it happened, before initiation and up in the initiation zone and allowing the whole upper block to drop free fall (the initiation) ... causing alleged pure compression of the intact structure below.
Indeed, it causes the block to rotate towards the area affected most by the inward pull (as that is the first wall to fail)

Originally Posted by Heiwa
There was no inward pull or heating of the structure below. It could only be compressed ... and according my calculations the result would just be a bump, compression, and then ... springing back again.
Assuming the upper block rotates, one would assume that the floors were impacted more than the columns, these are only designed to resist a small amount of weight and can not possibly resist the mass above.

Originally Posted by Heiwa
You see - the static load capacity of the bed before impact is zero! There is no static load on it! The 'hammer' has not yet hit. You cannot compare a dynamic load with zero static load!
I am not attempting to.

Originally Posted by Heiwa
And when I look at the videos I see that the upper block of WTC1 is breaking up before it touches the structure below. Funny impact! Don't you see the tower exploding after that? It is not a gravity driven collapse you see.
The only videos which satisfy this claim would be those of the north side of WTC1. There are other sources unfortunately that show this is not the case.

Originally Posted by Heiwa
Please, copy/paste any sentence in my article and point out what is wrong ... if you can find any? That's the music! I am just the piano player.
Sure, this is completely wrong:
Originally Posted by Heiwa's site
The destruction of the upper block before it reaches or impinges on the intact structure below simply means that the upper block is not rigid and that its potential energy is split in 1000's of small parts that cannot impact on the solid intact tower steel structure below and destroy the latter.
Regardless of the rigidity of the upper block it will accelerate due to gravity at the same rate, i have explained above why it will impact the floors and it is quite clear the amount of energy involved is easily enough to sever floor connections. Steel recovered from the building shows evidence of this with truss seats being bent downwards below the initiation point.

You don't seem to want to argue specifics, only claim you are right and you cannot be proven wrong, well if you do not understand the upper blocks of both towers rotated then you are wrong I am afraid.
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Old 27th February 2008, 07:26 AM   #476
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Heiwa:

Please look at the video frames at this site:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evid...se_frames.html

Now first note that this view is from the north and the upper block is tipping to the south so some of the apparent drop of the upper block is actually the top tipping away from the camera...

Nevertheless, sure, the upper block also appears to be compressing, but frame 12 which is over 3 seconds after collapse initiation clearly shows the top section of the upper block looking intact and totally undamaged. Thus you cannot claim, (as you do), that "the upper part is broken into pieces ..."

The area where the collapse initiates is the 98th floor and this is totally obscured by smoke and debris just a few seconds into the collapse. This is undoubtedly where both crush-down AND crush-up are occurring - we just can't see it - but, as I said above, we still can see an intact upper section to our "hammer"!

Last edited by Apollo20; 27th February 2008 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 27th February 2008, 07:30 AM   #477
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Are you sure about the following statement in your paper?

Originally Posted by Heiwa paper
In the WTCs no structure was heated >500C at any time according NIST even if the fire proofing were missing.
Looks like a little porkie pie to me
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Old 27th February 2008, 08:01 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
You see - the static load capacity of the bed before impact is zero! There is no static load on it! The 'hammer' has not yet hit. You cannot compare a dynamic load with zero static load!
Doesn't "zero static load" means you're not bearing any weight ?
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Old 27th February 2008, 08:23 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Doesn't "zero static load" means you're not bearing any weight ?
It's amazing! He needs to apply for the $1,000,000 immediately.
His structures and buildings do not weigh anything until they start moving!

And load capacity is always zero!

Sheesh. I cannot say what an this guy is...
Do you think he is capable of learning the difference between capacity and actual?
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Old 27th February 2008, 09:14 AM   #480
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Again Heiwa, you left Architect, and others, hanging in this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...=101791&page=8

You asked for criticism of your article and was given such in that thread, then you left. I wonder why.

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