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Old 17th January 2008, 07:21 AM   #1
pomeroo
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Hardfire News

The BBC is planning a follow-up to the documentary on 9/11, concentrating on the collapse of WTC 7. The producer wants to use parts of a 'Hardfire' debate. I am planning to tape on February 26, and I assume that I will feature the redoubtable Mark Roberts and retired FDNY battalion chief Arthur Scheuerman for the rationalist sdie. As regulars here are aware, my search for fantasist opposition has proved fruitless. Jim Fetzer has volunteered for a rematch with Mark, and claims he can bring along an "expert" on WTC 7. Personally, I'm willing to go with Fetzer (maybe you'd prefer Les Jamieson--see what I mean?). Unlike every other prominent conspiracist, he doesn't get an attack of vapors whenever Mark's name is mentioned. Like soldiers for the Confederacy, he displays courage in the service of a bad cause.

To members of the fantasist community: If you don't feel comfortable with Jim Fetzer being presented as the face of your movement, then it's high time a new champion, someone with cajones, stepped up to the plate. No guts, no glory.
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Old 17th January 2008, 07:28 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by pomeroo View Post
The BBC is planning a follow-up to the documentary on 9/11, concentrating on the collapse of WTC 7. The producer wants to use parts of a 'Hardfire' debate. I am planning to tape on February 26, and I assume that I will feature the redoubtable Mark Roberts and retired FDNY battalion chief Arthur Scheuerman for the rationalist sdie. As regulars here are aware, my search for fantasist opposition has proved fruitless. Jim Fetzer has volunteered for a rematch with Mark, and claims he can bring along an "expert" on WTC 7. Personally, I'm willing to go with Fetzer (maybe you'd prefer Les Jamieson--see what I mean?). Unlike every other prominent conspiracist, he doesn't get an attack of vapors whenever Mark's name is mentioned. Like soldiers for the Confederacy, he displays courage in the service of a bad cause.

To members of the fantasist community: If you don't feel comfortable with Jim Fetzer being presented as the face of your movement, then it's high time a new champion, someone with cajones, stepped up to the plate. No guts, no glory.
So Fetzer has an expert that says that WTC7 was taken down by a death ray from outer space?

Or does Fetzer think 1 and 2 were DRFOS, but WTC7 was rigged to be a CD?

I would personally love to see him try and explain that... forget the (non-existent) evidence for now, just see if he can make that a coherent theory...
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Old 17th January 2008, 07:34 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Totovader View Post
So Fetzer has an expert that says that WTC7 was taken down by a death ray from outer space?

Or does Fetzer think 1 and 2 were DRFOS, but WTC7 was rigged to be a CD?

I would personally love to see him try and explain that... forget the (non-existent) evidence for now, just see if he can make that a coherent theory...

Fetzer has made a disastrous decision to throw in with Judy Wood. Again, if guys like Red Ibis and Swing Dangler, who have a lot to say on tiny blogs about WTC 7, are too cowardly to make their case in public, Fetzer, by default, gets to make it for them.
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Old 17th January 2008, 07:51 AM   #4
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Great!
I look forward to seeing the program. I get a kick out watching Hardfire on google.

But, I hope the BBC actually uses more than 30 seconds of the show, and then only for the "woo" side of it.
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Old 17th January 2008, 08:49 AM   #5
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Thanks for the invite, Ron, but I'll decline. I still haven't gotten my Kookometer back from the shop since it shattered during the three shows we did with Fetzer. Who is Fetzer's "expert," and what analysis has he or she produced?

ETA: you didn't happen to run an invite past Steven Jones, did you? He's made a number of specific claims about WTC 7, and I'd love to see him try to defend them.
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Old 17th January 2008, 08:52 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by StoneRook View Post
Great!
I look forward to seeing the program. I get a kick out watching Hardfire on google.

But, I hope the BBC actually uses more than 30 seconds of the show, and then only for the "woo" side of it.
It would be interesting to see how Arthur Scheuerman handles the kooks. I wouldn't expect to see more than a few seconds of Hardfire clips on the BBC show, though. Thirty seconds is a very long time for a show like that.
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Old 17th January 2008, 08:57 AM   #7
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Well Ron, "Patriots Question 9/11" website has a list of 200 engineers and architects, and over 170 Professors. A lot of the people listed have their bios attached, many with email addresses...perhaps some of these academics would be interested in defending "the truth".

http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html

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Old 17th January 2008, 09:33 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Thanks for the invite, Ron, but I'll decline. I still haven't gotten my Kookometer back from the shop since it shattered during the three shows we did with Fetzer. Who is Fetzer's "expert," and what analysis has he or she produced?

ETA: you didn't happen to run an invite past Steven Jones, did you? He's made a number of specific claims about WTC 7, and I'd love to see him try to defend them.
I agree Dr. Jones should jump at this chance, he could even ask that a group of concerned Scientist look at his work.
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Old 17th January 2008, 09:44 AM   #9
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The mock battles of the 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesists

Face it. All of you chumps purposely focus on Fetzer and Wood and their ridiculous spaces beams, and others with their silly notions of demolition by explosive- or thermal-cutting, for one simple reason: to avoid drawing any attention to controlled-demolition by heat-weakening.

You are frauds and cowards.

Own it.


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Old 17th January 2008, 09:52 AM   #10
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Well you go then, Max/Paul.
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Old 17th January 2008, 09:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
Well you go then, Max/Paul.

I agree put Max on, that should be fun.
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Old 17th January 2008, 10:11 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
Face it. All of you chumps purposely focus on Fetzer and Wood and their ridiculous spaces beams, and others with their silly notions of demolition by explosive- or thermal-cutting, for one simple reason: to avoid drawing any attention to controlled-demolition by heat-weakening. You are frauds and cowards. Own it. Maxwell C. Photon

I have a sneaking suspicion that we’ve just witnessed Max’s audition.
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Old 17th January 2008, 10:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by pomeroo View Post
Fetzer has made a disastrous decision to throw in with Judy Wood. Again, if guys like Red Ibis and Swing Dangler, who have a lot to say on tiny blogs about WTC 7, are too cowardly to make their case in public, Fetzer, by default, gets to make it for them.
Obviously, there are far better choices than Fetzer or Wood. I agree with Max, they're easy to knock down.

So after being badgered and insulted I should agree to go on a local cable access show, a hostile environment, hosted by a very angry person, where I'll be railroaded and sandbagged. Gee, I just can't imagine why it would be hard to get anyone on Ron's show.
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Old 17th January 2008, 10:33 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
So... I should agree to go on a local cable access show, a hostile environment, hosted by a very angry person, where I'll be railroaded and sandbagged.

I see. You believe that the truther guests on Hardfire have been appreciably mistreated. Can you elaborate on the ways in which this has happened, perhaps by providing specific examples?

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Old 17th January 2008, 10:34 AM   #15
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Hardfire - the Journal of 911 Studies of TV shows
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Old 17th January 2008, 10:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Obviously, there are far better choices than Fetzer or Wood. I agree with Max, they're easy to knock down.

So after being badgered and insulted I should agree to go on a local cable access show, a hostile environment, hosted by a very angry person, where I'll be railroaded and sandbagged. Gee, I just can't imagine why it would be hard to get anyone on Ron's show.
So no twoofer- in your eyes- can appear on the show because they're either too stupid, or too good for Hardfire.

Does that sound like a copout to anyone else?
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Old 17th January 2008, 10:46 AM   #17
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I agree with Par.

While Ron is very agressive and upfront in his disdain for CTers on this forum, in the "Hardfire" episode featuring Mark, Dylan, and the other Loose Change guy whose name isn't important enough for me to try to remember at 9:30 in the morning, he was very fair and even-handed.

This episode is available online. Any CTers who disagree with this assessment, watch it, and give examples that prove it wrong.

ETA: And you've got to love the predictable groundwork being laid by the CTers, by the way.

Ron made it clear he can't get any other CTers to appear on the show, and offers an open invite to any that want to and yet there's already squawks of fraudulence and cowardice for "focusing" on easily debunkable CTers.

Shine on you crazy diamonds!

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Old 17th January 2008, 11:03 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
Face it. All of you chumps purposely focus on Fetzer and Wood and their ridiculous spaces beams, and others with their silly notions of demolition by explosive- or thermal-cutting, for one simple reason: to avoid drawing any attention to controlled-demolition by heat-weakening.
Uh, is Max blaming JREF for Fetzer and Woods? The mind boggles. Boggle, boggle, boggle.

16.5, Senior NWO Representative for Space Beam Disinfo.

/whoops! maybe i should not have added that last bit.
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Old 17th January 2008, 11:57 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Par View Post
I see. You believe that the truther guests on Hardfire have been appreciably mistreated. Can you elaborate on the ways in which this has happened, perhaps by providing specific examples?
If the emails that Ron has posted and his attitude here is any indication, I can't imagine why anyone would expect to be treated with respect and objectivity.
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Old 17th January 2008, 12:05 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
If the emails that Ron has posted and his attitude here is any indication, I can't imagine why anyone would expect to be treated with respect and objectivity.
Haven't you seen the shows. Ron is a pussy cat compared to his alter ego Pomeroo. Can you point us to examples of unfair treatment on the "Hardfire" shows?
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Old 17th January 2008, 12:11 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
If the emails that Ron has posted and his attitude here is any indication, I can't imagine why anyone would expect to be treated with respect and objectivity.

There is simply no need to examine the email exchanges and infer from them how truthers have been treated on the show. We have a much more reliable and direct source of evidence available to us – the shows themselves. With that in mind, do you believe that the truther guests on Hardfire have been appreciably mistreated?

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Old 17th January 2008, 12:13 PM   #22
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Free publicity on BBC, and you still can't get the likes of David Ray Griffin and Richard Gage! Incredible.
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Old 17th January 2008, 12:19 PM   #23
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I'm in favor of Max representing the wacky CT crowd. I also suggest Red go along to make sure things stay civil, polite, academic and respectful
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Old 17th January 2008, 12:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
I'm in favor of Max representing the wacky CT crowd. I also suggest Red go along to make sure things stay civil, polite, academic and respectful

Haha! I see what you're doing there.
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Old 17th January 2008, 12:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
If the emails that Ron has posted and his attitude here is any indication, I can't imagine why anyone would expect to be treated with respect and objectivity.
I've seen many people say the same thing about Bill O'reilly...yet wouldn't a truther jump at the chance to go on that show and talk about their theories in front of a large audience?

If you have the truth, then your objective should be to get it out, regardless of your personal opinions of the host of the show.

I'm sure Dylan & company would be welcomed back....does Dylan claim to have been mistreated during their debate?

I say:
Issue invitations to truthers (open invitations) to allow them to appear on the show, and then based on the responses, select an appropriate candidate. I'm sure DRG and Steven Jones wouldn't appear, but at least send them invitations..I would suggest also sending a blanket invitation to AE911truth.org, Scholars for truth, etc. If no one responds, there's no reason for them to complain when Fetzer is the only one willing to appear.

ETA: Please also invite Alex Jones...perhaps via a call-in to his show? I can't imagine him turning down any media exposure.
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Old 17th January 2008, 01:04 PM   #26
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Weird,* I see accusations and excuses, but not a single example of any discourteous or unfair treatment by Ron of his guests. I've been in the studio for several shows, and I can attest that Ron does all he can to make all his guests feel comfortable, and he repeatedly encourages viewers to read/watch the truther products. Afterwards and between shows he asks them if they feel they've been/are being treated fairly. In every case they've said yes. He's also very funny off camera.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. I thought the truthers would be champing at the bit to demolish supporters of the "official" version of 9/11 in a live debate. Where are all the fearless truth leaders who are going to change the world? Are Fetzer and Ace Baker really the only ones who think they can hold their own against a tour guide and a lover of small fluffy dogs? Reminds me of the English folk song "My husband's got no courage in him."


*Just kidding: it isn't weird. Anything else would be a violation of the truther code.
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Old 17th January 2008, 01:10 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by nicepants View Post
I'm sure Dylan & company would be welcomed back....does Dylan claim to have been mistreated during their debate?
No, but he's said he wouldn't do it again.

Quote:
I say:
Issue invitations to truthers (open invitations) to allow them to appear on the show, and then based on the responses, select an appropriate candidate. I'm sure DRG and Steven Jones wouldn't appear, but at least send them invitations..I would suggest also sending a blanket invitation to AE911truth.org, Scholars for truth, etc. If no one responds, there's no reason for them to complain when Fetzer is the only one willing to appear.
That's a good idea. One thing to keep in mind, in fairness to the truthers, is that Hardfire doesn't have a budget for guest travel expenses. Fetzer's airfare was paid by Ron and a few JREF forum members.

Quote:
ETA: Please also invite Alex Jones...perhaps via a call-in to his show? I can't imagine him turning down any media exposure.
There I disagree. He has a daily soapbox from which to rant, and I can't see him defending his claims of FDNY conspiracy involvement and "the majority of FDNY are with us" – to a FDNY battalion chief.
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Old 17th January 2008, 01:12 PM   #28
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Like I said, here is a list of 280 engineers and architects, and a list of 170 professors who ALLEGEDLY proclaim that the official story is wrong, so I AM SURE, out of such a list one soul brave enough can be found...lol

http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html
http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html

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Old 17th January 2008, 03:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
There I disagree. [Alex Jones] has a daily soapbox from which to rant, and I can't see him defending his claims of FDNY conspiracy involvement and "the majority of FDNY are with us" – to a FDNY battalion chief.
I think that would be a very interesting exchange. Especially if Jones is asked about the articles on his site that explicitly state that the FDNY was involved. But that's borderline Springer-ish.
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Old 17th January 2008, 03:45 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by pomeroo View Post
The BBC is planning a follow-up to the documentary on 9/11, concentrating on the collapse of WTC 7. The producer wants to use parts of a 'Hardfire' debate. I am planning to tape on February 26, and I assume that I will feature the redoubtable Mark Roberts and retired FDNY battalion chief Arthur Scheuerman for the rationalist sdie. As regulars here are aware, my search for fantasist opposition has proved fruitless. Jim Fetzer has volunteered for a rematch with Mark, and claims he can bring along an "expert" on WTC 7. Personally, I'm willing to go with Fetzer (maybe you'd prefer Les Jamieson--see what I mean?). Unlike every other prominent conspiracist, he doesn't get an attack of vapors whenever Mark's name is mentioned.
It's a shame there's nothing like a point spread in football to make the game more even. As I suggested awhile back, maybe a requirement that he drink a shot of bourbon every time "freefall" or "footprint" are mentioned. Or make Mark start all his words with the letter "r".

Otherwise it's just not fair.
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Old 17th January 2008, 03:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
If the emails that Ron has posted and his attitude here is any indication, I can't imagine why anyone would expect to be treated with respect and objectivity.
Have you watched an of the previous debates? He is being perfectly fair.
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Old 17th January 2008, 03:57 PM   #32
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I'm exited by the prospect of future Hardfire shows dealing with the conspiracy theory, as the ones I have seen have been thoroughly enjoyable.

Quote:
Issue invitations to truthers (open invitations) to allow them to appear on the show, and then based on the responses, select an appropriate candidate. I'm sure DRG and Steven Jones wouldn't appear, but at least send them invitations..I would suggest also sending a blanket invitation to AE911truth.org, Scholars for truth, etc. If no one responds, there's no reason for them to complain when Fetzer is the only one willing to appear.
Best idea yet.

Quote:
That's a good idea. One thing to keep in mind, in fairness to the truthers, is that Hardfire doesn't have a budget for guest travel expenses. Fetzer's airfare was paid by Ron and a few JREF forum members.
Well, assuming that Avery and co want to truth to come out... I wonder if they'll finance someone who is just bound to prove mark wrong

It might even be a test of putting your money where your mouth is...
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Old 17th January 2008, 04:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Obviously, there are far better choices than Fetzer or Wood. I agree with Max, they're easy to knock down.

So after being badgered and insulted I should agree to go on a local cable access show, a hostile environment, hosted by a very angry person, where I'll be railroaded and sandbagged. Gee, I just can't imagine why it would be hard to get anyone on Ron's show.

No, Red Ibis, you shouldn't go on the show because you are an unknown loon and you bring nothing to the table. None of the more prominent loons, the ones who are hawking books and DVDs, has declined for fear of being "railroaded and sandbagged." Can you define those terms? No, we didn't think so. They decline because they get exposed as charlatans and fools.

Last edited by pomeroo; 17th January 2008 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 17th January 2008, 04:09 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
If the emails that Ron has posted and his attitude here is any indication, I can't imagine why anyone would expect to be treated with respect and objectivity.

Here's a radical thought: why not watch the shows featuring the Boys and Fetzer and find out why prospective guests can expect to treated with respect and objectivity?
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Old 17th January 2008, 04:17 PM   #35
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Perhaps RedIbis could point to any examples of unfair tactics or hostility in the previous debates with Avery/Bermas or Fetzer?
That is if he has bothered to actually watch them.

ETA. Beaten to it by pomeroo.

Last edited by scissorhands; 17th January 2008 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 17th January 2008, 04:20 PM   #36
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I have reproduced below an e-mail I sent to "galen," along with other several members of the fantasy movement, including Jim Fetzer and Morgan Reynolds. It explains why we would be willing to invite Fetzer to appear again.



Here is the sterling record of the 9/11 fantasy movement:

David Ray Griffin: declined to debate, but agreed to discuss his book Debunking 9/11 Debunking on 'Hardfire'--acted astonished on hearing that he was expected to appear in the studio, claiming that he thought he agreed to a call-in interview--after being informed that we would be happy to accommodate him, decided that he has a policy of not making the call (he was informed that we could route incoming calls into the audio mixer, but not outgoing calls)--assured that we had solved the problem, asked that we wait until he had returned from a European tour--was informed of the publication of Ryan Mackey's paper refuting the errors and falsehoods in his chapter on the NIST Report--contacted Mackey and received a copy of the paper--after failing to respond to three e-mails, finally announced that he was reneging on his agreement because he had discovered that I was "dishonest"--predictably refused to provide an example of my dishonesty.

William Rodriguez: pretended to accept my invitation to appear on 'Hardfire' only to withdraw his acceptance fifteen minutes later, offering obscure and incoherent reasons.

Kevin Ryan: challenged Mark Roberts to a debate--Roberts immediately accepted and Ryan ran away.

Richard Gage: expressed interest in appearing on 'Hardfire'--went behind my back and asked the producer, who professes no expertise in 9/11-related controversies, to conduct the interview--when informed that the show is a discussion show, not a platform for selling DVDs, stopped responding to e-mails.

Steven Jones: begged off, stating that debates are "orthogonal to real science"--his real science consists of endlessly tweaking dust samples that show no evidence of thermite.

Jim Hoffman: scheduled to appear on 'Hardfire' in summer of 2006--ducked out at the last minute with no explanation.

Webster Tarpley: thought a 'Hardfire' debate "might be fun"--after requesting and obtaining links to Mark's debates with Fetzer and the Loose Change boys, stopped responding to e-mails.

Rob Balsamo: denied ducking debates--made a great show of wanting to debate, but it turned out that he and his associates reject any venue where a debate could actually take place.

Morgan Reynolds: issued a debate challenge to rationalists in a widely-circulated e-mail--ran away after I accepted the fake challenge.


So, to repeat my question, who will step forward to battle against reason and sanity? Where are the champions of the movement to absolve the jihadists of wrongdoing by slandering innocent people?

Ron

Last edited by pomeroo; 17th January 2008 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 17th January 2008, 04:24 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Thanks for the invite, Ron, but I'll decline. I still haven't gotten my Kookometer back from the shop since it shattered during the three shows we did with Fetzer. Who is Fetzer's "expert," and what analysis has he or she produced?

ETA: you didn't happen to run an invite past Steven Jones, did you? He's made a number of specific claims about WTC 7, and I'd love to see him try to defend them.

Mark, we need to discuss this matter. You haven't responded to e-mails. The BBC wants to see you, specifically, in action.
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Old 17th January 2008, 04:27 PM   #38
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Fetzer? He's a complete nut case with no credibility within the TM. Forget about him. Complete waste of time.

Max Photon? Also a bad candidate. While he probably has the most intelligent theory of any MIHOPer (seemingly 90% in agreement with the "official story") his thermite-weakening-steel + gravity driven collapse theory doesn't seem to be held by anyone but Max.

Hardfire needs someone who represents the talking-points and beliefs of the average twoofer.

I'd say the top 3 choices should be 1) Richard Gage, 2) Steven Jones and 3) Alex Jones.

Actually forget Alex....DR Griffin!!!!

Last edited by CHF; 17th January 2008 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 17th January 2008, 04:35 PM   #39
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Id go for Richard Gage.
Hes been very quietly avoiding debate and creaming money from his "followers" for long enough now.
Time to step out into the open for Richard.
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Old 17th January 2008, 04:38 PM   #40
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Ron, I'd be interested to know how the BBC contacted you. Did the producer phone you, fax you, or email you? Are you sure it isn't some deluded hoaxer?

I know I may sound paranoid and I don't assume that you are someone who could be easily fooled, but why do the BBC require new footage of Mark debating WTC7? Wasn't that one of the things spoken of in those previous debates? Couldn't you guys sell/give them some earlier footage? Or do they want to shoot it with their own camera?
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