Bee death: the true explanation

wogoga · 9th February 2008, 03:41 PM

A typical statement:

"A dramatic spate of bee deaths is being observed in the USA. In many regions almost 90 percent of the population has been affected. In Germany and Switzerland too, colony numbers have virtually halved in the last 15 years. But what are the causes?" (from afaa.com.au/news/n_news-2022.asp)

The primary cause of this bee death is very simple: there are not enough bee souls for the growing honey production all over the world. Many of the bee souls working now in East Asia and South America still worked in Europe and North America some years ago. The most efficient way to increase the world-wide honey production would consist in exterminating all species closely related to the honey bee. Yet it is clear that the souls of such related species need some lives as honey bees before they can be efficient honey bees themselves.

The limited number of souls having developed during evolution of life ("the psychon theory") explains why domestication and aquaculture inevitably lead to a reduction in the corresponding wild populations. It also explains the spreading of lowest-low fertility among humans around the world ("demographic saturation").

Cheers, Wolfgang

Freethinker · 9th February 2008, 04:12 PM

I'm going to go drink a beer and hope I kill whatever brain cells might be involved in storing that load in my memory.

fuelair · 9th February 2008, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Freethinker

I'm going to go drink a beer and hope I kill whatever brain cells might be involved in storing that load in my memory.

Hey, it's not only a funny load, it's a load that has been used in at least two SF short stories I remember (and I have only read possibly 25% of all the pro SF stories in English). For human souls, not Bees.

Olowkow · 9th February 2008, 05:17 PM

This reminds me of ..... oh, never mind.

Gord_in_Toronto · 9th February 2008, 10:24 PM

The "theory" does not make any sense intrinsically. If there were a limited number of bee souls, the number of bees would stabilize, not decrease.

XBoxWarrior · 9th February 2008, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

The "theory" does not make any sense intrinsically. If there were a limited number of bee souls, the number of bees would stabilize, not decrease.

You are missing the point........many, ok some, of the bee souls go to "heaven".

Therefore, there are less to make the stuff that goes in my tea.

In 20 years, if i'm still kicking, I'll have to use sugar.

Damn the good souled bees.

Gord_in_Toronto · 10th February 2008, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

You are missing the point........many, ok some, of the bee souls go to "heaven".

Therefore, there are less to make the stuff that goes in my tea.

In 20 years, if i'm still kicking, I'll have to use sugar.

Damn the good souled bees.

Ah. Oh. That fixes the theory. I may yet become a believer. Should we start annoying bees so they are not good enough to go to heaven?

wogoga · 10th February 2008, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by wogoga

The primary cause of this bee death is very simple: there are not enough bee souls for the growing honey production all over the world. Many of the bee souls working now in East Asia and South America still worked in Europe and North America some years ago.

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

The "theory" does not make any sense intrinsically. If there were a limited number of bee souls, the number of bees would stabilize, not decrease.

"From 1971 through 2006, there was a dramatic reduction in the number of feral (wild) honeybees in the US (now almost absent); and a significant, though somewhat gradual decline in the number of colonies maintained by beekeepers." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_Collapse_Disorder

"World production of honey in 2000, the latest reporting year for the series, rose +1.4% to 1.241 million metric tons from 1.224 million metric tons in 1999. World honey production has been stable in the 1.0-1.2 million metric ton range over the last 15 years." http://www.crbtrader.com/fund/articles/honey.asp

"Honey world production is around 1.4 million tons. Six countries concentrate 50% of total world production where there has been a slightly growing trend in the last decade." http://www.alimentosargentinos.gov.a...gles/Honey.htm (2007)

Cheers, Wolfgang
Reincarnation as an Alternative to Lamarck, Darwin and Sheldrake

Dr. Imago · 10th February 2008, 11:41 AM

Just out of curiousity, how many bees are there actually living in the world? A billion? Ten billion? A hundred billion? A trillion? Several trillion? More? Purportedly, one hive can have up to 100,000 or so, and that only takes up an area about a square meter or so.

-Dr. Imago

Corsair 115 · 10th February 2008, 01:22 PM

Bees have souls? I thought souls were the sole province of human beings...

Gord_in_Toronto · 10th February 2008, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

Bees have souls? I thought souls were the sole province of human beings...

Bees have bee souls.

Humans have human souls.

Whales have whale souls.

Bacteria have bacteria souls.

Those curious creatures that live at the edges of Black Smokers in the briney deeps have curious creatures that live at the edges of Black Smokers in the briney deeps souls.

Stars have star souls. (Apologies to Olaf Stapledon).

And Canadians have no souls. :sniff:

Ron_Tomkins · 10th February 2008, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by wogoga

A typical statement:

"A dramatic spate of bee deaths is being observed in the USA. In many regions almost 90 percent of the population has been affected. In Germany and Switzerland too, colony numbers have virtually halved in the last 15 years. But what are the causes?" (from afaa.com.au/news/n_news-2022.asp)

The primary cause of this bee death is very simple: there are not enough bee souls for the growing honey production all over the world. Many of the bee souls working now in East Asia and South America still worked in Europe and North America some years ago. The most efficient way to increase the world-wide honey production would consist in exterminating all species closely related to the honey bee. Yet it is clear that the souls of such related species need some lives as honey bees before they can be efficient honey bees themselves.

The limited number of souls having developed during evolution of life ("the psychon theory") explains why domestication and aquaculture inevitably lead to a reduction in the corresponding wild populations. It also explains the spreading of lowest-low fertility among humans around the world ("demographic saturation").

Cheers, Wolfgang

I thought this was related to Cell Phones.

What exactly do you mean by "bee souls"? I don't believe I understand what you're saying.... like, at all.

Bikewer · 10th February 2008, 05:00 PM

Bees got soul, man. Ain't you heard 'em hummmmmm?

fishbait · 10th February 2008, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Bees got soul, man. Ain't you heard 'em hummmmmm?

"The bumblebee is a busy soul
He has no time for birth control
And so for reasons such as these
We have so many sons of bees."

skoob · 10th February 2008, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by wogoga

Reincarnation as an Alternative to Lamarck, Darwin and Sheldrake

Originally Posted by Reincarnation as an Alternative to Lamarck, Darwin and Sheldrake

William McDougall's experiment on the inheritance of aquired habits in rats has furnished strong evidence of the psychon theory, which is based on reincarnation of all organisms such as enzymes, living cells, animals and humans.

(Bolding mine)

ZOMG! The enzymes. They're ALIVE!!!

wogoga · 23rd February 2008, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Imago

Just out of curiousity, how many bees are there actually living in the world? A billion? Ten billion? A hundred billion? A trillion? Several trillion? More?

Using the facts (source)

A single bee colony can produce more than 100 pounds (45 kg) of extra honey and this is what is harvested by the beekeeper.
A colony of honey bees in summer has 50-60,000 bees.

we calculate that around 1 gram of honey is harvested per bee. So for the honey world production of around 1.4 million tons, around 1.4 trillion bees are needed. From the dramatic reduction in the number of wild honeybees over the last decades we can conclude that most honeybee souls are now working in the honey production for us. Thus a reasonable guess could be the number of around 2 trillion (2,000,000,000,000) honey bee souls.

BTW, there could be this possibility to increase honey production without decreasing the number of bees elsewhere: The same bee souls must work always there where the season is ideal, e.g. from April to October in North America and from October to April in South America.

Cheers, Wolfgang

Only four centuries ago heliocentrism was considered by the vast majority of educated man as nonsensical as panpsychism still today

Antranik1 · 23rd February 2008, 12:35 PM

Out of all the forums on the net, you choose this one to post this kind of info to. It's strange.. and maybe stupid, but you've got balls, I give you that much, haha.. So anyway, what is your definition of a soul? And how do we know it exists? I think i've read your posts before, and the problem is, you don't setup a foundation AT ALL for your readers. You expect us to know what you're talking about right off the bat, as if we're there studying the material together in the same room. So yeah, how about that foundation?

JoeEllison · 23rd February 2008, 12:42 PM

what a gigantic load...

Gate2501 · 23rd February 2008, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Antranik1

I think i've read your posts before, and the problem is, you don't setup a foundation AT ALL for your readers. You expect us to know what you're talking about right off the bat, as if we're there studying the material together in the same room. So yeah, how about that foundation?

I was thinking the same thing. I have read another post by this guy that was talking about psychons(sp?) and enzymes being connected to souls. I feel that some of these posters RELY on the level of complication in their crackpot theories. This adds a sort of obfuscation in the form of... No one can really say why they are wrong because no one has any idea what the guy just said.

So yeah, to the OP:

Why do you think there is a soul, and what exactly *is* this magical soul comprised of, where does it reside?

DO NOT use postdictive proofs, like " OMG BEES DIED IT WAS CAUSE ALL THE BEE SOULS GOT USED UP LOLOL ". That is rubbish.

biostudent · 23rd February 2008, 02:18 PM

Where does a bee go to the bathroom?

Antranik1 · 23rd February 2008, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Gate2501

DO NOT use postdictive proofs, like " OMG BEES DIED IT WAS CAUSE ALL THE BEE SOULS GOT USED UP LOLOL ". That is rubbish.

hhahaha that was hilarious! Thanks for the laugh.

Wolfgang, my dearest apologizes, it's nothing against you.

KateHL · 23rd February 2008, 04:20 PM

Fun Fact!: Nuh-uh.

MattusMaximus · 23rd February 2008, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by wogoga

BTW, there could be this possibility to increase honey production without decreasing the number of bees elsewhere: The same bee souls must work always there where the season is ideal, e.g. from April to October in North America and from October to April in South America.

Cheers, Wolfgang

Only four centuries ago heliocentrism was considered by the vast majority of educated man as nonsensical as panpsychism still today

biostudent · 24th February 2008, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by biostudent

Where does a bee go to the bathroom?

/pout

No one knows that old joke? They go pee at a BP station! (and no we don't have BP stations in Canada anymore, but I still know the joke, lol)

Dr. Imago · 24th February 2008, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by wogoga

we calculate that around 1 gram of honey is harvested per bee. So for the honey world production of around 1.4 million tons, around 1.4 trillion bees are needed. From the dramatic reduction in the number of wild honeybees over the last decades we can conclude that most honeybee souls are now working in the honey production for us. Thus a reasonable guess could be the number of around 2 trillion (2,000,000,000,000) honey bee souls.

Oh, I see. So, every honey bee colony in the world is harvested then, right? This is how you account for your numbers, correct?

-Dr. Imago

zeusbheld · 24th February 2008, 11:34 AM

and here all this time i thought it was from excess phlogiston residue resulting from overconsumption of fossil fuels (bees have been using far too much petroleum-based fuel lately).

Cuddles · 25th February 2008, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

I thought this was related to Cell Phones.

Further proof that cell phones should not be used in flight.

wogoga · 25th February 2008, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by wogoga

Thus a reasonable guess could be the number of around 2 trillion (2,000,000,000,000) honey bee souls.

Originally Posted by Dr. Imago

Oh, I see. So, every honey bee colony in the world is harvested then, right? This is how you account for your numbers, correct?

After the "dramatic reduction in the number of wild honeybees", the majority of honeybees is probably harvested now. The calculated value of two trillion honeybee souls is the result of e.g. the following premises:

Honey world production is around 1.4 billion kg per year
An avergage harvested bee colony consists in summer of 50,000 bees and produces per year on average 50 kg harvested honey
Saturation of an average colony in summer is 80% (i.e. out of 100 colony bee souls, 80 souls are alive as bees at the same time)
85% of the all honeybees worldwide are harvested

We get:

1.4 billion kg / (50 kg / 50,000 bees) / 0.85 / 0.8 ) = 2 trillion

This is only a first guess, future will clear up this question.

Fertility is now low not only in the case of honeybees, but also in the case of cattle:

"A quarter century of declining fertility in dairy cattle has meant that a major problem now facing the UK farming sector is the very poor reproductive performance of high-yielding cows." (Source)

In the case of horses however, fertilty is high:

"Largely unchecked by natural predators, wild horse populations grow at rates of 18-25% per year." (Source)

So why have wild honeybee populations been decreasing in size whereas wild horse populations been increasing? If one deals with the problem in an unprejudiced way, then the answer is trivial.

Cheers, Wolfgang

Darth Rotor · 25th February 2008, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by wogoga

Fertility is now low not only in the case of honeybees, but also in the case of cattle

That is due to all the wife swapping parties attended by bees and cattle.

In their sordid pursuit of exotic forms of fornication, they forget that interspecies breeding, particularly between Insect and Animal kingdoms, doesn't work.

DR

wogoga · 8th May 2008, 04:00 PM

Colony Collapse Disorder is the phenomenon in which worker bees from a bee hive abruptly disappear. Healthy bees may not develop, or fly away from the hive and never return, leaving behind only an egg-laying queen and a few young workers. The explanation of this phenomenon is obvious: There are not enough honey bee souls for the growing demand all over the world.

The explanation that healthy bees never return to their hives is especially interesting:

The souls of evolutionarily related less social or even solitary bees develop in such honey bee hives. Because instinctive behaviour originates from the soul and not from genetics, these bees simply continue to behave like non-honey bees, despite genetically being genuine honey bees.

(Because imitation is a fundamental principle of biological evolution, souls of solitary bees can evolve into genuine honey-bee souls, if they are regularly born among a majority of such honey bees.)

Cheers, Wolfgang

Simplicity correlates with truth

Megalodon · 8th May 2008, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by wogoga

Colony Collapse Disorder is the phenomenon in which worker bees from a bee hive abruptly disappear. Healthy bees may not develop, or fly away from the hive and never return, leaving behind only an egg-laying queen and a few young workers. The explanation of this phenomenon is obvious: There are not enough honey bee souls for the growing demand all over the world.

The explanation that healthy bees never return to their hives is especially interesting:

The souls of evolutionarily related less social or even solitary bees develop in such honey bee hives. Because instinctive behaviour originates from the soul and not from genetics, these bees simply continue to behave like non-honey bees, despite genetically being genuine honey bees.

(Because imitation is a fundamental principle of biological evolution, souls of solitary bees can evolve into genuine honey-bee souls, if they are regularly born among a majority of such honey bees.)

Cheers, Wolfgang

Simplicity correlates with truth

This is so.... interesting.

or deranged, one of the two...

Questions:

-Can you provide evidence for the existence of souls?
-Can you provide evidence for the existence of bee souls?
-Can you provide evidence for the claim "instinctive behaviour originates from the soul and not from genetics"?
-Can you tell us what you're smoking? It seem potent...

wollery · 8th May 2008, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by wogoga

The souls of evolutionarily related less social or even solitary bees develop in such honey bee hives. Because instinctive behaviour originates from the soul and not from genetics, these bees simply continue to behave like non-honey bees, despite genetically being genuine honey bees.

And yet the Japanese can't get souls from other human populations. Animals can get souls from different species, but human souls can't even cross cultural boundaries.

Whack01 · 8th May 2008, 10:16 PM

Nonsense! Everybody knows the bee's have all flown to the great pyramid at which they are awaiting the return of the bee king in his spaceship.

(actually its a combination of fungus and virus.)

Nancarrow · 9th May 2008, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by wogoga

A typical statement:

"A dramatic spate of bee deaths is being observed in the USA. In many regions almost 90 percent of the population has been affected. In Germany and Switzerland too, colony numbers have virtually halved in the last 15 years. But what are the causes?" (from afaa.com.au/news/n_news-2022.asp)

The primary cause of this bee death is very simple: there are not enough bee souls for the growing honey production all over the world. Many of the bee souls working now in East Asia and South America still worked in Europe and North America some years ago. The most efficient way to increase the world-wide honey production would consist in exterminating all species closely related to the honey bee. Yet it is clear that the souls of such related species need some lives as honey bees before they can be efficient honey bees themselves.

The limited number of souls having developed during evolution of life ("the psychon theory") explains why domestication and aquaculture inevitably lead to a reduction in the corresponding wild populations. It also explains the spreading of lowest-low fertility among humans around the world ("demographic saturation").

Cheers, Wolfgang

Hah! Cool, Wolfgang! What a spot-on parody of that loon who keeps spouting off about 'the limited number of souls' in... er, hang on a sec...

(glances to left)

oh.

wogoga · 10th May 2008, 11:39 AM

Also the reason of the dwindling numbers of bumblebees in free nature ultimately results from the limited number of bumblebee souls. Bumblebees are more and more commercially raised and sold around the world for greenhouse pollination. These increasing numbers in commercially raised populations inevitably lead to a decline in the wild populations.

A quote from www.bumblebee.org:

Bumblebees are found mainly in northern temperate regions, though there are a few native South American species and New Zealand has some naturalised species that were introduced around 100 years ago to pollinate red clover. ... With the recent popularity of using bumblebees in glasshouse pollination they will probably be found in most parts of the world before long, especially Bombus terrestris which seems to be the most popular species sold for this purpose.

In the same way as in the case of aquaculture, hypotheses of a causal effect from artificially raised forms to the decrease in wild forms are regularly brought forward. A typical example:

Bumble bee expert Dr. Robbin Thorp has hypothesized that wild populations of four closely related North American humble bees - ... - were infected with an introduced disease carried by commercially reared bumble bee colonies. In the early 1990's, Common Eastern and Western Bumble Bees were shipped to Europe and reared in the same facilities as the European Buff-tailed Bumble Bee, then returned to the U.S. for use as commercial pollinators. Dr. Thorp suggests that, while in Europe, the Common Eastern and Western Bumble Bees were exposed to a pathogen of the European Buff-tailed Bumble Bee for which they had no prior resistance. ... The close relationship of the bees in decline to the European Buff-tailed Bumble Bee, as well as the timing, speed and severity of the population crashes suggest that an escaped exotic disease organism may be the cause of these widespread losses.

It is clear that within a purely materialist world view such an "exotic disease organism" seems to be the most likely explanation.

However, if we give up the prejudices of reductionist materialism (philosophically rooted in naive realism) and try out a pandualist world view, then we can easily recognize the true reason of the "timing, speed and severity of the population crashes":

Not the bumblebees which returned to the U.S. caused the decline in the wild, but those reared in the European (and in other) facilities, thus depleting the psychons of the wild populations.

Maybe it will necessary to somehow (e.g. by legal means) limit the number of bumblebees in greenhouses in order not to further deplete the numbers of wild bumblebee populations.

Cheers, Wolfgang

For being unprejudiced one must always start fighting anew!

wogoga · 12th November 2014, 09:35 AM

Worldwide production of honey from 1992 to 2012 according to UN Food & Agriculture Organization:

Despite all the claims to the contrary, pollination by harvested bees has been continuously increasing. We conclude that decreasing honeybee populations in some regions/ countries must be paralleled by increasing populations in other regions/ countries.

Apart from using the same bee souls during northern-hemisphere winter in the southern hemisphere and vice versa (thus making unnecessary winter survival), also special varroa-mite breeding could increase bee pollination and honey production. (It is an empirical fact that animal breeding leads to a decrease in the corresponding not-bred populations (see).

Cheers, Wolfgang

jaydeehess · 12th November 2014, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Bees have bee souls.

Humans have human souls.

Whales have whale souls.

Bacteria have bacteria souls.

Those curious creatures that live at the edges of Black Smokers in the briney deeps have curious creatures that live at the edges of Black Smokers in the briney deeps souls.

Stars have star souls. (Apologies to Olaf Stapledon).

And Canadians have no souls. :sniff:

We don't need them, we are polite anyway.

Faydra · 12th November 2014, 09:54 AM

Our comet lander has one too.

Philae of soul.

Ziggurat · 12th November 2014, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior

Damn the good souled bees.

That's precisely the problem: they aren't damned.

CORed · 12th November 2014, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Ah. Oh. That fixes the theory. I may yet become a believer. Should we start annoying bees so they are not good enough to go to heaven?

I don't recommend annoying bees if your allergic to their sting.

9th February 2008, 03:41 PM	#1
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334	Bee death: the true explanation A typical statement: "A dramatic spate of bee deaths is being observed in the USA. In many regions almost 90 percent of the population has been affected. In Germany and Switzerland too, colony numbers have virtually halved in the last 15 years. But what are the causes?" (from afaa.com.au/news/n_news-2022.asp) The primary cause of this bee death is very simple: there are not enough bee souls for the growing honey production all over the world. Many of the bee souls working now in East Asia and South America still worked in Europe and North America some years ago. The most efficient way to increase the world-wide honey production would consist in exterminating all species closely related to the honey bee. Yet it is clear that the souls of such related species need some lives as honey bees before they can be efficient honey bees themselves. The limited number of souls having developed during evolution of life ("the psychon theory") explains why domestication and aquaculture inevitably lead to a reduction in the corresponding wild populations. It also explains the spreading of lowest-low fertility among humans around the world ("demographic saturation"). Cheers, Wolfgang
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334

9th February 2008, 04:12 PM	#2
Freethinker Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,356	I'm going to go drink a beer and hope I kill whatever brain cells might be involved in storing that load in my memory.
	__________________ "Did it indeed seem probable, as he had once overheard Dunbar ask, that the answers to the riddles of creation would be supplied by people too ignorant to understand the mechanics of rainfall? Had Almighty God, in all His infinite wisdom, really been afraid that men six thousand years ago would succeed in building a tower to heaven?" Thoughts of the Chaplain in Heller's Catch-22

9th February 2008, 04:40 PM	#3
fuelair Banned Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 58,581	Originally Posted by Freethinker I'm going to go drink a beer and hope I kill whatever brain cells might be involved in storing that load in my memory. Hey, it's not only a funny load, it's a load that has been used in at least two SF short stories I remember (and I have only read possibly 25% of all the pro SF stories in English). For human souls, not Bees.
fuelair Banned Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 58,581

9th February 2008, 05:17 PM	#4
Olowkow Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 8,230	This reminds me of ..... oh, never mind.
Olowkow Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 8,230

9th February 2008, 10:24 PM	#5
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,499	The "theory" does not make any sense intrinsically. If there were a limited number of bee souls, the number of bees would stabilize, not decrease.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

9th February 2008, 10:31 PM	#6
XBoxWarrior Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto The "theory" does not make any sense intrinsically. If there were a limited number of bee souls, the number of bees would stabilize, not decrease. You are missing the point........many, ok some, of the bee souls go to "heaven". Therefore, there are less to make the stuff that goes in my tea. In 20 years, if i'm still kicking, I'll have to use sugar. Damn the good souled bees.
XBoxWarrior Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,228

10th February 2008, 10:43 AM	#7
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,499	Originally Posted by XBoxWarrior You are missing the point........many, ok some, of the bee souls go to "heaven". Therefore, there are less to make the stuff that goes in my tea. In 20 years, if i'm still kicking, I'll have to use sugar. Damn the good souled bees. Ah. Oh. That fixes the theory. I may yet become a believer. Should we start annoying bees so they are not good enough to go to heaven?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

10th February 2008, 11:41 AM	#8
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334	Originally Posted by wogoga The primary cause of this bee death is very simple: there are not enough bee souls for the growing honey production all over the world. Many of the bee souls working now in East Asia and South America still worked in Europe and North America some years ago. Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto The "theory" does not make any sense intrinsically. If there were a limited number of bee souls, the number of bees would stabilize, not decrease. "From 1971 through 2006, there was a dramatic reduction in the number of feral (wild) honeybees in the US (now almost absent); and a significant, though somewhat gradual decline in the number of colonies maintained by beekeepers." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_Collapse_Disorder "World production of honey in 2000, the latest reporting year for the series, rose +1.4% to 1.241 million metric tons from 1.224 million metric tons in 1999. World honey production has been stable in the 1.0-1.2 million metric ton range over the last 15 years." http://www.crbtrader.com/fund/articles/honey.asp "Honey world production is around 1.4 million tons. Six countries concentrate 50% of total world production where there has been a slightly growing trend in the last decade." http://www.alimentosargentinos.gov.a...gles/Honey.htm (2007) Cheers, Wolfgang Reincarnation as an Alternative to Lamarck, Darwin and Sheldrake
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334

10th February 2008, 11:41 AM	#9
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,620	Just out of curiousity, how many bees are there actually living in the world? A billion? Ten billion? A hundred billion? A trillion? Several trillion? More? Purportedly, one hive can have up to 100,000 or so, and that only takes up an area about a square meter or so. -Dr. Imago
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,620	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.

10th February 2008, 01:22 PM	#10
Corsair 115 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 14,519	Bees have souls? I thought souls were the sole province of human beings...
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

10th February 2008, 03:17 PM	#11
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,499	Originally Posted by Corsair 115 Bees have souls? I thought souls were the sole province of human beings... Bees have bee souls. Humans have human souls. Whales have whale souls. Bacteria have bacteria souls. Those curious creatures that live at the edges of Black Smokers in the briney deeps have curious creatures that live at the edges of Black Smokers in the briney deeps souls. Stars have star souls. (Apologies to Olaf Stapledon). And Canadians have no souls. :sniff:
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick Last edited by Gord_in_Toronto; 10th February 2008 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Edited to fix my PC spell checker that insists in changing "Black" to "African American".

10th February 2008, 03:30 PM	#12
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 44,024	Originally Posted by wogoga A typical statement: "A dramatic spate of bee deaths is being observed in the USA. In many regions almost 90 percent of the population has been affected. In Germany and Switzerland too, colony numbers have virtually halved in the last 15 years. But what are the causes?" (from afaa.com.au/news/n_news-2022.asp) The primary cause of this bee death is very simple: there are not enough bee souls for the growing honey production all over the world. Many of the bee souls working now in East Asia and South America still worked in Europe and North America some years ago. The most efficient way to increase the world-wide honey production would consist in exterminating all species closely related to the honey bee. Yet it is clear that the souls of such related species need some lives as honey bees before they can be efficient honey bees themselves. The limited number of souls having developed during evolution of life ("the psychon theory") explains why domestication and aquaculture inevitably lead to a reduction in the corresponding wild populations. It also explains the spreading of lowest-low fertility among humans around the world ("demographic saturation"). Cheers, Wolfgang I thought this was related to Cell Phones. What exactly do you mean by "bee souls"? I don't believe I understand what you're saying.... like, at all.

10th February 2008, 05:00 PM	#13
Bikewer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 13,114	Bees got soul, man. Ain't you heard 'em hummmmmm?

10th February 2008, 05:23 PM	#14
fishbait Raggin' the Blues Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,026	Originally Posted by Bikewer Bees got soul, man. Ain't you heard 'em hummmmmm? "The bumblebee is a busy soul He has no time for birth control And so for reasons such as these We have so many sons of bees."
	__________________ "I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" ************. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are." --Bill Hicks

10th February 2008, 05:23 PM	#15
skoob Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 146	Originally Posted by wogoga Reincarnation as an Alternative to Lamarck, Darwin and Sheldrake Originally Posted by Reincarnation as an Alternative to Lamarck, Darwin and Sheldrake William McDougall's experiment on the inheritance of aquired habits in rats has furnished strong evidence of the psychon theory, which is based on reincarnation of all organisms such as enzymes, living cells, animals and humans. (Bolding mine) ZOMG! The enzymes. They're ALIVE!!!
skoob Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 146

23rd February 2008, 06:24 AM	#16
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334	Originally Posted by Dr. Imago Just out of curiousity, how many bees are there actually living in the world? A billion? Ten billion? A hundred billion? A trillion? Several trillion? More? Using the facts (source) A single bee colony can produce more than 100 pounds (45 kg) of extra honey and this is what is harvested by the beekeeper. A colony of honey bees in summer has 50-60,000 bees. we calculate that around 1 gram of honey is harvested per bee. So for the honey world production of around 1.4 million tons, around 1.4 trillion bees are needed. From the dramatic reduction in the number of wild honeybees over the last decades we can conclude that most honeybee souls are now working in the honey production for us. Thus a reasonable guess could be the number of around 2 trillion (2,000,000,000,000) honey bee souls. BTW, there could be this possibility to increase honey production without decreasing the number of bees elsewhere: The same bee souls must work always there where the season is ideal, e.g. from April to October in North America and from October to April in South America. Cheers, Wolfgang Only four centuries ago heliocentrism was considered by the vast majority of educated man as nonsensical as panpsychism still today
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334

23rd February 2008, 12:35 PM	#17
Antranik1 Scholar Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 113	Out of all the forums on the net, you choose this one to post this kind of info to. It's strange.. and maybe stupid, but you've got balls, I give you that much, haha.. So anyway, what is your definition of a soul? And how do we know it exists? I think i've read your posts before, and the problem is, you don't setup a foundation AT ALL for your readers. You expect us to know what you're talking about right off the bat, as if we're there studying the material together in the same room. So yeah, how about that foundation?
Antranik1 Scholar Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 113

23rd February 2008, 12:42 PM	#18
JoeEllison Cuddly Like a Koala Bear Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7,270	what a gigantic load...

23rd February 2008, 01:10 PM	#19
Gate2501 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,377	Originally Posted by Antranik1 I think i've read your posts before, and the problem is, you don't setup a foundation AT ALL for your readers. You expect us to know what you're talking about right off the bat, as if we're there studying the material together in the same room. So yeah, how about that foundation? I was thinking the same thing. I have read another post by this guy that was talking about psychons(sp?) and enzymes being connected to souls. I feel that some of these posters RELY on the level of complication in their crackpot theories. This adds a sort of obfuscation in the form of... No one can really say why they are wrong because no one has any idea what the guy just said. So yeah, to the OP: Why do you think there is a soul, and what exactly is this magical soul comprised of, where does it reside? DO NOT use postdictive proofs, like " OMG BEES DIED IT WAS CAUSE ALL THE BEE SOULS GOT USED UP LOLOL ". That is rubbish.

23rd February 2008, 02:18 PM	#20
biostudent Guest Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 100	Where does a bee go to the bathroom?
biostudent Guest Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 100

23rd February 2008, 04:09 PM	#21
Antranik1 Scholar Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 113	Originally Posted by Gate2501 DO NOT use postdictive proofs, like " OMG BEES DIED IT WAS CAUSE ALL THE BEE SOULS GOT USED UP LOLOL ". That is rubbish. hhahaha that was hilarious! Thanks for the laugh. Wolfgang, my dearest apologizes, it's nothing against you.
Antranik1 Scholar Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 113

23rd February 2008, 04:20 PM	#22
KateHL Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,822	Fun Fact!: Nuh-uh.
KateHL Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,822

23rd February 2008, 11:13 PM	#23
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15,948	Originally Posted by wogoga BTW, there could be this possibility to increase honey production without decreasing the number of bees elsewhere: The same bee souls must work always there where the season is ideal, e.g. from April to October in North America and from October to April in South America. Cheers, Wolfgang Only four centuries ago heliocentrism was considered by the vast majority of educated man as nonsensical as panpsychism still today
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher "We *** up the air, the water, we **** up each other. Why don't we just finish the job by flushing our brains down the toilet?"* -- John Trent, In the Mouth of Madness

24th February 2008, 08:44 AM	#24
biostudent Guest Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 100	Originally Posted by biostudent Where does a bee go to the bathroom? /pout No one knows that old joke? They go pee at a BP station! (and no we don't have BP stations in Canada anymore, but I still know the joke, lol)
biostudent Guest Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 100

24th February 2008, 10:56 AM	#25
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,620	Originally Posted by wogoga we calculate that around 1 gram of honey is harvested per bee. So for the honey world production of around 1.4 million tons, around 1.4 trillion bees are needed. From the dramatic reduction in the number of wild honeybees over the last decades we can conclude that most honeybee souls are now working in the honey production for us. Thus a reasonable guess could be the number of around 2 trillion (2,000,000,000,000) honey bee souls. Oh, I see. So, every honey bee colony in the world is harvested then, right? This is how you account for your numbers, correct? -Dr. Imago
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,620	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.

24th February 2008, 11:34 AM	#26
zeusbheld Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 260	and here all this time i thought it was from excess phlogiston residue resulting from overconsumption of fossil fuels (bees have been using far too much petroleum-based fuel lately).

25th February 2008, 09:30 AM	#27
Cuddles Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 18,636	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins I thought this was related to Cell Phones. Further proof that cell phones should not be used in flight.

25th February 2008, 10:06 AM	#28
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334	Originally Posted by wogoga Thus a reasonable guess could be the number of around 2 trillion (2,000,000,000,000) honey bee souls. Originally Posted by Dr. Imago Oh, I see. So, every honey bee colony in the world is harvested then, right? This is how you account for your numbers, correct? After the "dramatic reduction in the number of wild honeybees", the majority of honeybees is probably harvested now. The calculated value of two trillion honeybee souls is the result of e.g. the following premises: Honey world production is around 1.4 billion kg per year An avergage harvested bee colony consists in summer of 50,000 bees and produces per year on average 50 kg harvested honey Saturation of an average colony in summer is 80% (i.e. out of 100 colony bee souls, 80 souls are alive as bees at the same time) 85% of the all honeybees worldwide are harvested We get: 1.4 billion kg / (50 kg / 50,000 bees) / 0.85 / 0.8 ) = 2 trillion This is only a first guess, future will clear up this question. Fertility is now low not only in the case of honeybees, but also in the case of cattle: "A quarter century of declining fertility in dairy cattle has meant that a major problem now facing the UK farming sector is the very poor reproductive performance of high-yielding cows." (Source) In the case of horses however, fertilty is high: "Largely unchecked by natural predators, wild horse populations grow at rates of 18-25% per year." (Source) So why have wild honeybee populations been decreasing in size whereas wild horse populations been increasing? If one deals with the problem in an unprejudiced way, then the answer is trivial. Cheers, Wolfgang
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334

25th February 2008, 10:09 AM	#29
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,527	Originally Posted by wogoga Fertility is now low not only in the case of honeybees, but also in the case of cattle That is due to all the wife swapping parties attended by bees and cattle. In their sordid pursuit of exotic forms of fornication, they forget that interspecies breeding, particularly between Insect and Animal kingdoms, doesn't work. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

8th May 2008, 04:00 PM	#30
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334	Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) Colony Collapse Disorder is the phenomenon in which worker bees from a bee hive abruptly disappear. Healthy bees may not develop, or fly away from the hive and never return, leaving behind only an egg-laying queen and a few young workers. The explanation of this phenomenon is obvious: There are not enough honey bee souls for the growing demand all over the world. The explanation that healthy bees never return to their hives is especially interesting: The souls of evolutionarily related less social or even solitary bees develop in such honey bee hives. Because instinctive behaviour originates from the soul and not from genetics, these bees simply continue to behave like non-honey bees, despite genetically being genuine honey bees. (Because imitation is a fundamental principle of biological evolution, souls of solitary bees can evolve into genuine honey-bee souls, if they are regularly born among a majority of such honey bees.) Cheers, Wolfgang Simplicity correlates with truth
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334

8th May 2008, 09:45 PM	#31
Megalodon Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 3,228	Originally Posted by wogoga Colony Collapse Disorder is the phenomenon in which worker bees from a bee hive abruptly disappear. Healthy bees may not develop, or fly away from the hive and never return, leaving behind only an egg-laying queen and a few young workers. The explanation of this phenomenon is obvious: There are not enough honey bee souls for the growing demand all over the world. The explanation that healthy bees never return to their hives is especially interesting: The souls of evolutionarily related less social or even solitary bees develop in such honey bee hives. Because instinctive behaviour originates from the soul and not from genetics, these bees simply continue to behave like non-honey bees, despite genetically being genuine honey bees. (Because imitation is a fundamental principle of biological evolution, souls of solitary bees can evolve into genuine honey-bee souls, if they are regularly born among a majority of such honey bees.) Cheers, Wolfgang Simplicity correlates with truth This is so.... interesting. or deranged, one of the two... Questions: -Can you provide evidence for the existence of souls? -Can you provide evidence for the existence of bee souls? -Can you provide evidence for the claim "instinctive behaviour originates from the soul and not from genetics"? -Can you tell us what you're smoking? It seem potent...
Megalodon Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 3,228	__________________ Stupid is depressing...

8th May 2008, 09:57 PM	#32
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 11,158	Originally Posted by wogoga The souls of evolutionarily related less social or even solitary bees develop in such honey bee hives. Because instinctive behaviour originates from the soul and not from genetics, these bees simply continue to behave like non-honey bees, despite genetically being genuine honey bees. And yet the Japanese can't get souls from other human populations. Animals can get souls from different species, but human souls can't even cross cultural boundaries.
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

8th May 2008, 10:16 PM	#33
Whack01 Thinker Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 199	Nonsense! Everybody knows the bee's have all flown to the great pyramid at which they are awaiting the return of the bee king in his spaceship. (actually its a combination of fungus and virus.)
Whack01 Thinker Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 199

9th May 2008, 01:15 AM	#34
Nancarrow Chelonian Overlord Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 462	Originally Posted by wogoga A typical statement: "A dramatic spate of bee deaths is being observed in the USA. In many regions almost 90 percent of the population has been affected. In Germany and Switzerland too, colony numbers have virtually halved in the last 15 years. But what are the causes?" (from afaa.com.au/news/n_news-2022.asp) The primary cause of this bee death is very simple: there are not enough bee souls for the growing honey production all over the world. Many of the bee souls working now in East Asia and South America still worked in Europe and North America some years ago. The most efficient way to increase the world-wide honey production would consist in exterminating all species closely related to the honey bee. Yet it is clear that the souls of such related species need some lives as honey bees before they can be efficient honey bees themselves. The limited number of souls having developed during evolution of life ("the psychon theory") explains why domestication and aquaculture inevitably lead to a reduction in the corresponding wild populations. It also explains the spreading of lowest-low fertility among humans around the world ("demographic saturation"). Cheers, Wolfgang Hah! Cool, Wolfgang! What a spot-on parody of that loon who keeps spouting off about 'the limited number of souls' in... er, hang on a sec... (glances to left) oh.
	__________________ A mosquito was heard to complain That a chemist had poisoned his brain The cause of his sorrow Was paradichloro Diphenyltrichloroethane.

10th May 2008, 11:39 AM	#35
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334	The decline in wild bumblebees Also the reason of the dwindling numbers of bumblebees in free nature ultimately results from the limited number of bumblebee souls. Bumblebees are more and more commercially raised and sold around the world for greenhouse pollination. These increasing numbers in commercially raised populations inevitably lead to a decline in the wild populations. A quote from www.bumblebee.org: Bumblebees are found mainly in northern temperate regions, though there are a few native South American species and New Zealand has some naturalised species that were introduced around 100 years ago to pollinate red clover. ... With the recent popularity of using bumblebees in glasshouse pollination they will probably be found in most parts of the world before long, especially Bombus terrestris which seems to be the most popular species sold for this purpose. In the same way as in the case of aquaculture, hypotheses of a causal effect from artificially raised forms to the decrease in wild forms are regularly brought forward. A typical example: Bumble bee expert Dr. Robbin Thorp has hypothesized that wild populations of four closely related North American humble bees - ... - were infected with an introduced disease carried by commercially reared bumble bee colonies. In the early 1990's, Common Eastern and Western Bumble Bees were shipped to Europe and reared in the same facilities as the European Buff-tailed Bumble Bee, then returned to the U.S. for use as commercial pollinators. Dr. Thorp suggests that, while in Europe, the Common Eastern and Western Bumble Bees were exposed to a pathogen of the European Buff-tailed Bumble Bee for which they had no prior resistance. ... The close relationship of the bees in decline to the European Buff-tailed Bumble Bee, as well as the timing, speed and severity of the population crashes suggest that an escaped exotic disease organism may be the cause of these widespread losses. It is clear that within a purely materialist world view such an "exotic disease organism" seems to be the most likely explanation. However, if we give up the prejudices of reductionist materialism (philosophically rooted in naive realism) and try out a pandualist world view, then we can easily recognize the true reason of the "timing, speed and severity of the population crashes": Not the bumblebees which returned to the U.S. caused the decline in the wild, but those reared in the European (and in other) facilities, thus depleting the psychons of the wild populations. Maybe it will necessary to somehow (e.g. by legal means) limit the number of bumblebees in greenhouses in order not to further deplete the numbers of wild bumblebee populations. Cheers, Wolfgang For being unprejudiced one must always start fighting anew!
wogoga Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334