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Old 9th February 2008, 04:29 PM   #1
pomeroo
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Diane Reviews Loose Change Debates

Diane has posted a thoughtful review of Mark's debates with the Boys:

http://activistnyc.wordpress.com/200...e-change-crew/
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Old 9th February 2008, 06:52 PM   #2
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it is well written and level headed. I'm curious as to her claim that mark made an appeal to authority. It's been awhile since I watched the debate but I don't remember him actually doing this. I'm also wondering what expertise she has to reject the explanations of structural engineers as she mentioned in the piece.

but I haven't read a lot of her. She is no doubt an anomaly in the truth movement. She agrees with much of what Mark says to counter jason and dylan, so I'm wondering just what makes her think they're right overall.
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Old 9th February 2008, 07:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Viper Daimao View Post
it is well written and level headed. I'm curious as to her claim that mark made an appeal to authority. It's been awhile since I watched the debate but I don't remember him actually doing this. I'm also wondering what expertise she has to reject the explanations of structural engineers as she mentioned in the piece.

but I haven't read a lot of her. She is no doubt an anomaly in the truth movement. She agrees with much of what Mark says to counter jason and dylan, so I'm wondering just what makes her think they're right overall.


A subject that I intend to explore with Diane is just how rational can a person be without abandoning the inside job theory. It is noteworthy that she didn't comment on my falsifiability question to the Boys.
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Old 10th February 2008, 01:53 AM   #4
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Boy, that Diane lady sure was nice to the LC crew. I wonder why a rational woman can give credence to such dolts and their idiotic claims.

Last edited by Pardalis; 10th February 2008 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 10th February 2008, 02:08 AM   #5
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Well, I'm having a puzzling time with someone so rational.

I was having a decent conversation with her at that link. But she expressed doubt that WTC 7 was leaning as it fell.

I linked to a video that shows the lean of WTC 7 clearly.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Diane has a comment policy about linking to videos. So she deleted the link and asked my to post pictures of the lean. Well, I was happy to do that. I have two framegrabs from that short video:





However, I had no idea how her comment page would accept code to post the pictures: HTML, BBCode, or just links to the pictures.

I tried HTML first. No dice. And her comments don't allow editing. So I tried the BBCode. That just printed the code out. I was considerate and said in the comment that she could delete that one if the pictures didn't print again. I also told her I wasn't trying to spam her comments.

So the third time I simply posted links to my photobucket pages with those pictures.

And when I came back, all three comments had been deleted.

So on the subject of an actual discussion with evidence being able to be presented, I'm not very convinced of Diane's good faith right now.
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Old 10th February 2008, 05:35 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Boy, that Diane lady sure was nice to the LC crew. I wonder why a rational woman can give credence to such dolts and their idiotic claims.
Maybe it's because she's not rational at all. She lives in NYC, why doesn't she just ask some of those nice, real life FDNY firefighters what happened to WTC 7? Oh, I forgot, "truthers" don't believe in real life stuff.
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Old 10th February 2008, 05:42 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by boloboffin View Post
Well, I'm having a puzzling time with someone so rational.

I was having a decent conversation with her at that link. But she expressed doubt that WTC 7 was leaning as it fell.

I linked to a video that shows the lean of WTC 7 clearly.

Diane has a comment policy about linking to videos. So she deleted the link and asked my to post pictures of the lean. Well, I was happy to do that. I have two framegrabs from that short video:

However, I had no idea how her comment page would accept code to post the pictures: HTML, BBCode, or just links to the pictures.

I tried HTML first. No dice. And her comments don't allow editing. So I tried the BBCode. That just printed the code out. I was considerate and said in the comment that she could delete that one if the pictures didn't print again. I also told her I wasn't trying to spam her comments.

So the third time I simply posted links to my photobucket pages with those pictures.

And when I came back, all three comments had been deleted.

So on the subject of an actual discussion with evidence being able to be presented, I'm not very convinced of Diane's good faith right now.
The links are back now.

I find that site quite flaky, and I've had comments disappear and reappear, but I've found Diane quite capable of accepting dissenting views.

She seems to be quite receptive to well made technical arguments. Whether she's an example of someone who can be brought into the light, I don't know, but unlike most of the conspiracists who post here, she at least gives nodding respect to rationality.
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Old 10th February 2008, 10:37 AM   #8
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Well, that's all better then. In fact, she did a good turn by pasting the picture links into the original comment and deleting the other two unnecessary ones. I'm satisfied with that explanation completely and apologize for any untoward suggestion here.

ETA: She said something about the system informing me that the comments would be moderated. Perhaps I missed that message. If I had seen that, I wouldn't have had any cause for alarm.

Last edited by boloboffin; 10th February 2008 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 12th February 2008, 05:53 AM   #9
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Diane has been able to look at the northeast video I linked to (or rather an 8-second version that she was able to download). She posts her take on it here:

Two WTC 7 collapse videos: Can both be real?

That's right. Faced with two videos of the same event, one clearly demonstrating the lean as Building 7 fell, Diane's first thought is that one or the other video has been faked.

Quote:
To my admittedly untrained eye, these two videos look too different from each other for both of them to be genuine, unaltered recordings of the exact same event from different angles.

Why this is important: The northeast video, if genuine, substantially weakens the “symmetry of collapse” argument regarding WTC 7. Hence, if the genuineness of the northwest video can be established, and if the incompatibility I percieve turns out to be valid, we can thereby disprove an important piece of alleged evidence against the “symmetry of collapse” argument.
"Alleged evidence." Oh, well.

Last edited by boloboffin; 12th February 2008 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 12th February 2008, 06:17 AM   #10
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Is the "large vertical split" in the northeast video actually a column of smoke obscuring part of the facade? That's what it looks like to me.

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Old 12th February 2008, 06:36 AM   #11
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I think you're right, Dave. The sun is hitting the camera right there, and that combined with that smoke might looking like the building has broken apart. It isn't moving away or at a different speed than the rest of the building though. Hopefully, Diane is going to be looking at that clip a few times.
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Old 12th February 2008, 06:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by boloboffin View Post
I think you're right, Dave. The sun is hitting the camera right there, and that combined with that smoke might looking like the building has broken apart. It isn't moving away or at a different speed than the rest of the building though. Hopefully, Diane is going to be looking at that clip a few times.
It also might be worth directing her to pictures of the debris pile. The north face of the building is clearly laid over the top of the pile confirming what is seen in the video.

You can find pictures of this on Gravy's site.
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Last edited by DGM; 12th February 2008 at 06:55 AM. Reason: correct north/south error- thanks Boloboffin
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:25 PM   #13
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From my little interaction with Diane and reading her posts and comments, my feeling is that there would be a lot of "hurdles" and "conditions" attached to any possible debate with Mark or anyone else.

In my opinion, she is too much of a "control person", needing to have everything just "so." She appears to be navigating a very thin line between wanting to appear objective (sometimes she is), not wanting to appear to take sides, but then happy to make unsubstantiated assertions that the 9/11 Truth Movement makes, while trying to distance herself from "that" part of the 9/11 Truth Movement.

I think she is delighted to be the recent center of attention here by JREFers but has an overriding need to control everything, including endless justifications about the meaning of words and terms she had previously used in a post or comment but would normally be taken differently in general usage. The net effect is a deflection from the conversation at hand, a neat skirting of issues or points, and a general frustration with the course of a conversation.

She is suspicious of "us", questioning our "motives", what "axes" we have to "grind", (why could we possibly spend so much time arguing with Truthers if we did not have some overriding, and hidden, "motive?")

I make clear this is my opinion, a gut feeling about a personality type that requires careful handling and one who is more trouble than its worth. I could be very wrong, but that's the sense that I have gotten. In the end, I don't think there is much value in pursuing Diane for any kind of debate.
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Old 12th February 2008, 01:07 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by bje View Post
From my little interaction with Diane and reading her posts and comments, my feeling is that there would be a lot of "hurdles" and "conditions" attached to any possible debate with Mark or anyone else.

In my opinion, she is too much of a "control person", needing to have everything just "so." She appears to be navigating a very thin line between wanting to appear objective (sometimes she is), not wanting to appear to take sides, but then happy to make unsubstantiated assertions that the 9/11 Truth Movement makes, while trying to distance herself from "that" part of the 9/11 Truth Movement.

I think she is delighted to be the recent center of attention here by JREFers but has an overriding need to control everything, including endless justifications about the meaning of words and terms she had previously used in a post or comment but would normally be taken differently in general usage. The net effect is a deflection from the conversation at hand, a neat skirting of issues or points, and a general frustration with the course of a conversation.

She is suspicious of "us", questioning our "motives", what "axes" we have to "grind", (why could we possibly spend so much time arguing with Truthers if we did not have some overriding, and hidden, "motive?")

I make clear this is my opinion, a gut feeling about a personality type that requires careful handling and one who is more trouble than its worth. I could be very wrong, but that's the sense that I have gotten. In the end, I don't think there is much value in pursuing Diane for any kind of debate.
That's an excellent and well-written summation, one that I fully agree with, but couldn't do half as good a job of putting into words. Well said!
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Old 12th February 2008, 01:21 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by bje View Post
From my little interaction with Diane and reading her posts and comments, my feeling is that there would be a lot of "hurdles" and "conditions" attached to any possible debate with Mark or anyone else.

In my opinion, she is too much of a "control person", needing to have everything just "so." She appears to be navigating a very thin line between wanting to appear objective (sometimes she is), not wanting to appear to take sides, but then happy to make unsubstantiated assertions that the 9/11 Truth Movement makes, while trying to distance herself from "that" part of the 9/11 Truth Movement.

I think she is delighted to be the recent center of attention here by JREFers but has an overriding need to control everything, including endless justifications about the meaning of words and terms she had previously used in a post or comment but would normally be taken differently in general usage. The net effect is a deflection from the conversation at hand, a neat skirting of issues or points, and a general frustration with the course of a conversation.

She is suspicious of "us", questioning our "motives", what "axes" we have to "grind", (why could we possibly spend so much time arguing with Truthers if we did not have some overriding, and hidden, "motive?")

I make clear this is my opinion, a gut feeling about a personality type that requires careful handling and one who is more trouble than its worth. I could be very wrong, but that's the sense that I have gotten. In the end, I don't think there is much value in pursuing Diane for any kind of debate.

I was thinking along similar lines. She is carefully assembling a construct to support a pre conceived conclusion. She does not want to fail like all the rest. She is a liar getting all her ducks in a row before she puts herself out there. Selecting pieces of a puzzle and discarding others. Putting them together. Though the puzzle piece may fit in its incorrect location.. The colors do not make a picture.
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Old 15th February 2008, 02:25 PM   #16
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Before we get into any further intense disagreements on other issues, may I just say keep up the good fight here, pomeroo.
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Old 15th February 2008, 03:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
I was thinking along similar lines. She is carefully assembling a construct to support a pre conceived conclusion. She does not want to fail like all the rest. She is a liar getting all her ducks in a row before she puts herself out there. Selecting pieces of a puzzle and discarding others. Putting them together. Though the puzzle piece may fit in its incorrect location.. The colors do not make a picture.
Failure is a relative concept.

The "all the rest" you refer to, have only failed if they didn't achieve their goals in coming here. You can only speculate as to what their expectations were. I have certainly achieved all my goals and expecting to persuade hardcore members here that there is reason to strongly doubt the Official Story was not one of them.

It's a rare duck that would start posting here without having already reached some beliefs, the best ones remain open minded.

It's also a favorite tactic, commonly used by the many false skeptics here, to attempt to intimidate by calling people names and label anyone who disagrees with them a liar.

MM

Last edited by Miragememories; 15th February 2008 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 15th February 2008, 03:17 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
It's also a favorite tactic, commonly used by the many false skeptics here, to attempt to intimidate by calling people names and label anyone who disagrees with them a liar.

Irony, thy name is MM.
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Old 15th February 2008, 03:23 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
It's also a favorite tactic, commonly used by the many false skeptics here, to attempt to intimidate by calling people names and label anyone who disagrees with them a liar.
You could always try a lawsuit...
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Old 15th February 2008, 03:33 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
You could always try a lawsuit...
Indeed, there few things CTists can do with less impact then posting on an Internet forum. Yet, that's pretty much all they do.
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Old 15th February 2008, 03:35 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
I have certainly achieved all my goals and expecting to persuade hardcore members here that there is reason to strongly doubt the Official Story was not one of them.

The sooner 9/11 truthers get over their "official story" canard, the sooner it will dawn on them that the burden of proof is on them to either put up, bring evidence to the table, and file criminal charges, or slither away with their tails between their legs.

It should be clear after six years of whining, they have no charges to file.
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Old 15th February 2008, 10:09 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Snide View Post
Before we get into any further intense disagreements on other issues, may I just say keep up the good fight here, pomeroo.

I wouldn't describe our political disagreements as being particularly intense. Thanks for the encouragement. The profusion of vacuous dunces among the recent infestation of twoofers strongly suggests that the good guys are winning and the bad guys really have nothing to say in support of their evil movement.
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Old 16th February 2008, 10:42 AM   #23
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How monohypothesiseistic of you, Pomeroo...enough for two.

Last edited by Max Photon; 16th February 2008 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 17th February 2008, 08:47 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
How monohypothesiseistic of you, Pomeroo...enough for two.

I expected my opinion to be confirmed, but not quite that quickly.
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Old 17th February 2008, 09:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Failure is a relative concept.

The "all the rest" you refer to, have only failed if they didn't achieve their goals in coming here. You can only speculate as to what their expectations were. I have certainly achieved all my goals and expecting to persuade hardcore members here that there is reason to strongly doubt the Official Story was not one of them.

It's a rare duck that would start posting here without having already reached some beliefs, the best ones remain open minded.

It's also a favorite tactic, commonly used by the many false skeptics here, to attempt to intimidate by calling people names and label anyone who disagrees with them a liar.

MM
Failure is not a relative concept. Some win and some lose. I'll have my duck well done. Does a false skeptic believe everything?
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