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Old 11th February 2008, 10:58 PM   #1
Gravy
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Checking Out

Hi, Folks.

This will be my last post in this subforum. I'll be posting in other subfora and will be getting involved in other skeptical pursuits, but will still be available for 9/11 questions, interviews, debates, etc. if need be, so don't hesitate to let me know if I can help.

I'm looking forward to getting back to exercising my baritone in my much-neglected vocal group, The Free Kix: The Official Barbershop Quartet of Major League Soccer:

The Free Kix

I've been planning to move on for some time. I don't have anything new to offer, the truthers are out of ideas, and the current crop of deniers posting here consists mostly of whining children and self-debunking delusionists.

I was going to share with you a study (mostly a time study) I did of truther-rationalist interaction on this forum, but I've decided against it. How people choose to spend their time here is their own business. I will point out that in the past month these 10 people have made 80% of the truther posts (listed alphabetically):
bofors
Christopher7
GregoryUrich
Heiwa
Major Tom
Max Photon
Miragememories
realcddeal
RedIbis
Sizzler

The 20 truthers who account for the remaining 20% of posts in the last 30 days are no better.

In various email exchanges in the past 10 days I've asked truthers this question nine times: "Can you tell me one significant claim that the truth movement gets demonstrably correct?"

Not a single person had an answer. People have been touting Diane (last name?) as the most articulate truther they've come across. I asked that question of her three times. She had no answer, and became upset and accused me of "pestering" and "pressuring" tactics. It seems to me to be a simple question that any member of a "truth" movement should be able to answer immediately.

A few of the funny/sad things I mentioned in my TAM presentation were:
  • Truthers stating that I am a CIA agent.
  • Truthers stating that I am an evil Freemason
  • A truther demonstration using aluminum soda cans as superior models to NIST's computer models.
In the week after I got back, new occurrences of these things were pointed out to me:
  • Truthers stating that I am a CIA agent.
  • Truthers stating that I am an evil Freemason
  • A truther demonstration using aluminum soda cans as superior models to NIST's computer models.
If I'm going to be on a carousel, I'd prefer that it be this one in Prospect Park, with my skeptical friend Lu:




Coming back to the CT forum after a few days away was eye-opening. I could hardly bear to look at the new thread titles.

"WTC Was Nuked."
"This is what really happened at the Pentagon"
"Was there a WTC arson investigation?"
"JONES new paper: Microspheres and Temperatures"

That last one really gets to me. 557 responses (including some by me). Don't get me wrong: many of the threads here that are silly on their faces elicit excellent and educational responses. In this case, because of the astute comments of this forum's members, Steve Jones may even be encouraged to start practicing science some day! But I do feel that the focus on these very esoteric details feeds the truthers' need to involve others in the minutia of their fantasies, and causes the big picture to go out of focus for all involved. For me, this subject boils down to:

Q: What can Steven Jones or anyone else determine about the collapse mechanism of the WTC buildings by examining a bit of dust?

A: Nothing, ever.

My hope is not that the details go unexamined, but that the big picture be emphasized much more. That this dust has become a major issue for the truthers, with many looking expectantly at uncle Steve to crack this case wide open, shows how truly desperate and intellectually bankrupt their religious movement is.

We know that for every JREF forum member who's reading or participating in a thread, two or three non-members are "lurking" and not participating. "We're doing this for the lurkers" has been a consistent argument for continuing to engage with the clueless and the delusional. I've made that argument several times myself. However, (for me, anyway) that's no longer a valid argument, for these reasons:

1) Although few new issues are raised, each day still brings an average of 12 new CT threads, which means that the signal-to-noise ratio can be quite low.

2) Since the 5,355 threads here aren't organized into easy-to-browse categories, and the search function is poor, newcomers and lurkers are easily overwhelmed by quantity. We had such a case in the past week. A newcomer asked if there was a summary of the issues he could refer to, because he certainly wasn't going to read thousands of unorganized threads containing 375,000 posts. And when a newcomer asks about a specific subject here, in my opinion it's no longer acceptable to say, "Use the search function."

That's why I created my site, which links to hundreds of posts here, organized by category. It doesn't get much use except by me, but I've found it to be extremely handy and will update it periodically. Please let me know if there's anything you want me to add to it.

If anyone is interested in maintaining the "Finding the Truth by Refusing to Act" thread, or in doing something similar, that would be great. I started that as an example of what I think we should have been doing much more of all along. Okay: truthers make their case, we make ours, they remain unswayed. Rather than doing what they want and endlessly bickering over the same details, we should be pressuring them to DO something about these very, very serious claims.

And when they finally agree to do something, they should be held to that promise and reminded of it as much as possible. That will starkly reveal the truth: that almost none of them are willing to do anything at all except whine on an internet forum. You can see how much they HATE to be reminded of their impotence and indolence, by their extremely defensive and irrational reactions: realcddeal accusing me of being a "dual citizen" with shadowy allegiances, Sizzler accusing me of spreading "propaganda." All because I ask them to take the baby steps they've already promised to take.

Perhaps the best way to keep track of these is for someone to keep an offline list of just the names of the "promise keepers" who are added to the Refusing to Act thread, and to send them reminders when they're posting here, or to bump the thread and post that X number of days/weeks/months have passed and the promises remain unfulfilled, yet that truther is still complaining on the forum. Just an idea, and I won't be offended if no one runs with it.

***

Thanks for putting up with my aggressive style for all this time. I know it doesn't make for pleasant reading, but it's been important to me not to use kid gloves on these revelers in ignorance and these apologists for the terrorists who killed my neighbors.

I wish I could thank several hundred of you individually for all I've learned from you and for all you've done for rationalism and honesty. This is one very special collection of people who give a damn. I hope to see you in the more sane parts of the forum!

All my best,
Mark





Aah!
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:04 PM   #2
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What....no cobler? I am pretty much in agreement with you and if you noticed I am already posting in the other subforums here. Nothing left here but to point out the woo's idiocy but lately they do a great job themselves.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:10 PM   #3
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Quote:
I hope to see you in the more sane parts of the forum!

All my best,
Mark
Give my regards to Bigfoot.
Remember me to Quantum squared.
Tell all the guys on Uri Geller st that I will soon be there!

Cheers.

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Old 11th February 2008, 11:10 PM   #4
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Aw. Some of the magic just went out of the world.



...wait...that's a good thing. Never mind.

Thanks for all you've done here. You know you've made an impact when these truthers want to kill you to shut you up, because you might be part of a secret government plot to kill people to shut them up...no, sorry, I just can't manage to write that and keep a straight face. I did try.

You're my hero, Binglybert Slaptyback. Not the least because of your charming and melodious name.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:11 PM   #5
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Thanks for all you've done. I hope you decide to come back eventually.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:11 PM   #6
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You got a lot of balls just quittin' like this Mark. Had you actually put some time or effort into this debunking thing, I'd maybe let it slide. But just clockin' out before you ever punched in is unacceptable.

[/sarcasm]

Glad to see that you're taking a step to "moving on". Still hope to grab a beer with ya at O'Hara's next time I'm in the city.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:16 PM   #7
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Good luck with your retirement - I have only ever been on the edge of all that has been going on. I have been constantly amazed at how people like yourself can keep going, remembering the sheer magnitude of death and suffering that occured that day.

Evil walked the world that day, and it is something we will never forget. It is people like you that have kept the thruth of that event honest.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:18 PM   #8
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The torch has been passed. Via con dios.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:20 PM   #9
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You'll be back, you know it, even if it's just to laugh at some new idiocy that comes up a week from now. Catch you in the member's section sometime.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:27 PM   #10
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Alright man, holla at ya.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:32 PM   #11
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A toast...to Scurvy Gherkin!

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Old 11th February 2008, 11:32 PM   #12
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Actually to be quite honest, Mark's quite right, the only truthers left here are the loons and the trolls. One has to wonder if there is anyone else left in their "movement?
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Actually to be quite honest, Mark's quite right, the only truthers left here are the loons and the trolls. One has to wonder if there is anyone one else left in their "movement?
There wasn't much else in the movement to start with.

Mark, you have built a tremendous foundation for others to build upon. You've done incredible work and can retire from the field with honor and pride.

Your absence will frustrate those tinfoilers who wanted thier chance to take down "the man" and will be felt by those who appreciate your work. I know more today about the most pivotal day of the 21st century than I ever thought I'd know and it's still only a fraction of what you know.

Best of luck to you and "Lu".
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:37 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
I hope to see you in the more sane parts of the forum!


Assuming there are any.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:38 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Actually to be quite honest, Mark's quite right, the only truthers left here are the loons and the trolls. One has to wonder if there is anyone else left in their "movement?
Was there ever any other sort of Truther? Loons and trolls are all I've ever seen. That's why I'm here. Loons and trolls entertain me. Sad, I know.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:41 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Was there ever any other sort of Truther? Loons and trolls are all I've ever seen. That's why I'm here. Loons and trolls entertain me. Sad, I know.
Sort of a sadistic entertainment isn't it? And I admit to that.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Was there ever any other sort of Truther? Loons and trolls are all I've ever seen. That's why I'm here. Loons and trolls entertain me. Sad, I know.

Loons and trolls are pretty much everywhere on these fora. We had the invisible Bigfoot dude, the Corn Dog prophet, everyone-is-a-right-winger Ion, everyone-is-a-left-winger TokenConservative, moRons by the dozen, and plenty more. If entertainment is your thing, I would highly recommend a browse through the nutty wonderfulness General Skepticism and the Paranormal has to offer.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Loons and trolls are pretty much everywhere on these fora. We had the invisible Bigfoot dude, the Corn Dog prophet, everyone-is-a-right-winger Ion, everyone-is-a-left-winger TokenConservative, moRons by the dozen, and plenty more. If entertainment is your thing, I would highly recommend a browse through the nutty wonderfulness General Skepticism and the Paranormal has to offer.
I often browse through those other forums, but I don't often post there. Don't know why.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:47 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Was there ever any other sort of Truther? Loons and trolls are all I've ever seen. That's why I'm here. Loons and trolls entertain me. Sad, I know.
Join Facebook and join me on the loose change group... you can be the next one they call pedophile because they can't come up with anything else.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:50 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Join Facebook and join me on the loose change group... you can be the next one they call pedophile because they can't come up with anything else.
I'm already on Facebook. Haven't been accused of pedophilia, though. I guess I'm just not in the right crowd....
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:57 PM   #21
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Like all great pros, bowing out at the top of their game.
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:01 AM   #22
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Cheers Mark
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:13 AM   #23
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So how long before we get a truther post saying, "Ha, he gave up! We're winning!"?
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:32 AM   #24
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Thanks for everything, Mark! Thanks for your site and debunking efforts.

I've actually been considering the very same thing. I've posted a lot less recently, I don't even start to browse most of the threads anymore. Just the titles set me off. And I have less and less motivation all the time, the opposition is just so weak and repetetive. And immune to reasoning.

Yet, I have only chosen to post less and participate less. See how that feels. I've still visited this subforum daily, and probably still will. And the site will of course be up and even updated.

And for everybody, even if there was nothing else to anticipate anymore, at least wait for the next Mike Williams update on 911 myths. He has some completely new content on a major issue coming up. At least I'm looking forward to that very much.

See you all here (maybe less frequently) and see you Mark on other topics across the forum!

- ref aka Ilkka
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:34 AM   #25
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Aloha Oe, Mahalo Nui Loa for all the work you've done. Of course, without what you've done , I wouldn't have found this wonderful site, and seen the dishonesty with th 911 truth movement.

Good health to you Mark, and drop by in this forum from time to time to get your dose of laughter.
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:42 AM   #26
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Mark,

I dont post on here a whole lot. I do lurk a good bit and have for quite a while. It was your work which inspired me to take on the truthers over at Peak Oil.com. It's been a tiring battle but your example here and the work you have done has educated myself and thousands of others.

I'd like to say a special thank you for doing what you have done. Thank you for your site, it's an excellent and useful resource which I have used many times over the last year.

Once again, thank you. It's a pleasure to be even remotely associated with such folks.

Don't let the bastards get you down.
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:45 AM   #27
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Mes salutations, Mark.

You are quite an inspiration, and your dedication and hard work are exemplary. You are a one true tough skeptic. I'm sure we haven't seen nothing yet.

Keep your site alive.


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Old 12th February 2008, 12:50 AM   #28
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Can't say I blame him. The truth movement era is kinda coming to a close, time to start moving on.
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:53 AM   #29
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Mark, I understand. I really do. See you on "Hardfire' on the 26th.
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Old 12th February 2008, 01:11 AM   #30
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Thanks mark. Your research has helped me understand 9/11. I honestly think your a smart guy and humorous when you stand up to these black-shirt nazis.

I've got some claims a truther made about NAU, I actually refuted all of them, then he started in with the shadowy elite, NASCO myth vs. fact was PR junk, CFR control the media,Cintra Zachry is a spanish corporation owned by King Juan Carlos of Spain, Manitoba legislature, and rothschild lines as usual. He pretty much gave up at the end and told everyone to go buy jerome corsi book The Coming Merger with Mexico and Canada.

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Old 12th February 2008, 01:12 AM   #31
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As long time lurker and now novice poster at JREF can i represent some of the lurkers here by saying thanks mark.
I for one wouldn't have taken an interest in the topic without your inspiring and dogged dismantling of so many of the truth movement idiots.
I get tired on here after an hour or so - i can only admire your tenacity. enjoy the extra time you so deserve.
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Old 12th February 2008, 01:23 AM   #32
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Its like whack a mole with nerf moles. Their willful ignorance springs back anew

Take care Mark and thanks for everything. You have taught us well. What you have typed in your OP is right on target. The fact that I haven't seen any conspiracy curious fence sitters post here. Just the lying nut jobs tells us that the troof movement is dead. There is no longer evidence that there are any more fence sitters. The troofer desperation is evident when they are reduced to arguing what the definition of "drop out' means. Or have to interject their impossible pet theory into any and every thread. Or have to ask us how will WE be remembered when any sane person can see thats not the point at all. It has been getting rather boring here lately, You can only see the troofer lies posted over and over again just so many times in the face of facts willfully ignored before it becomes tiresome and you realize its just a debating game these liars want to play. I have concentrated my energies elsewhere on construction industry trade specific forums. At least there I know I am helping people with what I have learned over the years.
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Old 12th February 2008, 01:55 AM   #33
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I don't post much but I read much of the JREF forums.
I would like to thank you Gravy, for all the work and valuable information, all your efforts.
Have fun on other subfora, I am glad you don't leave the JREF.
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Old 12th February 2008, 02:02 AM   #34
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Thanks for all of the time, research and effort you have put into debunking the CT's, Mark. In just the last few months I have learned a great deal about the events of 9-11 that I had never really thought much about. I recognized the nonsense when I read or heard it, but the CT subforum helped me to find the facts to answer the nonsense, especially your posts (and those of other well researched debunkers) when I encounter it, and your website is an invaluable research tool.
Good luck, good times and don't be a stranger.
See ya around the forum.
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Old 12th February 2008, 02:05 AM   #35
Orphia Nay
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Mark, I have deep respect for the work you've done, and I likewise respect you for taking a very well-earned departure from the daily grind of forum 9/11 debunking.

I stand and applaud you on a job extremely well done:



I look forward to seeing your wit and wisdom contributing to other sub-forums around the place.
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Old 12th February 2008, 02:17 AM   #36
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I can see why you are leaving. I may be new to the debunking, but already I see that it is stale.

I do hope that we get a chance to hear your quartet sing.

Hopefully the truth movement will never see the day when Gravy is left to congeal. They're decomposing composers, there's less of the every year...

Best of luck, be sure to provide us with some music, and keep fighting the good fight.
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Old 12th February 2008, 02:23 AM   #37
Foolmewunz
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Good for you, Mark! I remember being touched by a post of yours over a year ago wherein you mentioned that you'd originally been interested in some of the homeopathy discussions and a few other topics and had just not had the time to get back to them.

Get a little normalcy (and I use that term in its loosest sense) in your life. I haven't been back home in about four years (and frankly, I'm such an Asia-phile that I might never come back if I don't have business reasons), but if I do get back, I still owe you a few dozen beers (and a trip to a really good Shanghainese dumpling house!

I noticed today that Arkan is still here, but in a lot of different sub-forums, also. I've been doing much the same, and I dare say a number of other frequenters of these threads are doing the same. The last remaining core of the TM are the delusional or the professional anti-everythings. They're not going to be convinced or converted. I only wade in when I see blatant hate-mongers (we know who I have in my mind) and liars. The trollers and JAQers are just recycling three and four year old bilge water.
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Old 12th February 2008, 02:27 AM   #38
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I am not much of a contributer to this sub-forum, but you (and others) have given me the ammunition to shoot down the lies, half truths and downright lunacy of acquaintances who know the "truth" of 9/11. Well done. Look forward to your contribution in other parts of the forum.
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Old 12th February 2008, 03:29 AM   #39
Dave Rogers
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Thanks for the memories, Mark. I've learned a lot from you about one of the pivotal events of recent history, and so have many other people, so maybe the nutters have inadvertantly done a bit of good.

Dave
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Old 12th February 2008, 04:22 AM   #40
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Good luck Mark and thank you.

You really have been an inspiration,your work and the efforts of other seasoned researchers stand head and shoulders above others. I can only stand in admiration at your commitment and the utter determination you have shown in exposing time and time again the utter insanity behind these alternative theories. The same determination that has brought you no end of personnel insults, abuse and even death threats. But you have stood tall against it all.

The cult of the of the truth movement really do fear such rational thinkers, hence the reason they have time and time singled you out for this "special" Treatment, because to defeat Mark Roberts is to prove their case. They have failed time and time again. This will be your legacy, Mark,you inspired others to fight back and for the cultists all it now is a personnel war being waged against you. It is not about the truth, it never was , it is simply about finding more and extreme ways to dismiss the truth and continue with their fantasies.

As I say, your work is here for all to see, it will never go away. It does and always will inspire people to fight this never ending barrage of delusion and fantasies.

Thank you. Stateofgrace.

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