ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags netcetera , quackometer

Reply
Old 18th February 2008, 01:59 PM   #1
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,431
Quackometer Silenced

In case you didn't know, Andy Lewis's excellent quackometer site has had its plug pulled by his ISP, Netcetera.

Discussion on badscience here:

And one of the badscience bloggers view on it here:

Quote:
Quackometer blog suffered was malady of homeopaths, which saw his hosting company Netcetera following legal threats from the Society of Homeopaths. Most recently the Quackometer was afflicted with Joseph Chikelue Obi which saw his hosting company remove another page from his blog. It is thought that the Quackometer blog has finally succumbed to this ailment, slipping off this mortal coil, today, Monday 18th Febraury.
He wants to abolish the GMC, probably as he is suspended for serious professional misconduct


Quote:
Shamed doctor Joseph Chikelue Obi is running a string of internet sites offering health advice.

He was suspended last year because of serious misconduct at a North East hospital and is not licensed to practise medicine in this country.

The 34-year-old, who lives in Gateshead, is banned from treating patients in the UK but not from offering advice.

A Chronicle probe has discovered Dr Obi is running websites selling medical advice and services, including premium-rate phone lines
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 02:27 PM   #2
wahrheit
Pac-Man
 
wahrheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,585
This ISP has quite some small print in it's terms:

Quote:
Netcetera will be the sole arbiter as to what constitutes a violation of this provision.
1) Web Hosting
1.1) Netcetera reserves the right to suspend or cancel a customer’s access to any or all services provided by Netcetera, where Netcetera decides that the account has been inappropriately used. Netcetera reserves the right to refuse service and /or access to its servers to anyone.”
What a fine elastic clause.
__________________
For a moment, nothing happened.
Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.
D. Adams -- THHGTTG

You're a sick man.
The Atheist
wahrheit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 02:28 PM   #3
tkingdoll
AKA TEEK
 
tkingdoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,418
AUGH!!!!

That totally sucks.
__________________

www.stormmovie.net

Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie
tkingdoll is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 03:12 PM   #4
Loss Leader
Opinionated Jerk
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 16,117
Originally Posted by wahrheit View Post
This ISP has quite some small print in it's terms:



What a fine elastic clause.

It's not really uncommon. In fact, I'd say that such a clause is far and away the standard for ISPs. I haven't looked into it but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find an ISP that didn't reserve the right to kick you off for no reason at all.
__________________
"I recognize the problem ... but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up." Jabba

What is my Gladiator Profile?
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 03:22 PM   #5
tkingdoll
AKA TEEK
 
tkingdoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,418
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It's not really uncommon. In fact, I'd say that such a clause is far and away the standard for ISPs. I haven't looked into it but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find an ISP that didn't reserve the right to kick you off for no reason at all.
Quite. And almost every ISP will kick a site at the first sniff of a legal letter rather than risk the suit. I know people who have done this very thing (had sites with libelous content removed).

The trick is to find an ISP who is sympathetic, or who doesn't care about baseless legal threats.
__________________

www.stormmovie.net

Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie
tkingdoll is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 03:24 PM   #6
Drudgewire
Critical Doofus
 
Drudgewire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,421
Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
The trick is to find an ISP who is sympathetic, or who doesn't care about baseless legal threats.
Man I wish I could remember who we were using when I was getting threatened weekly with legal action. The host would send me the threats and we'd laugh and laugh and laugh.

Unfortunately the tech support sucked so we dropped them like a bad habit.
__________________
"You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc."
-lapman describing every twoofer on the internet
Drudgewire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 03:29 PM   #7
wahrheit
Pac-Man
 
wahrheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,585
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It's not really uncommon. In fact, I'd say that such a clause is far and away the standard for ISPs. I haven't looked into it but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find an ISP that didn't reserve the right to kick you off for no reason at all.
I'm sure you are right, and in fact I do have some kind of psychic powers, because I was already preparing a little addendum to my previous post because I knew someone with legal expertise would straighten me out on this one.

My excuse: I was mentally stuck in German (European?) law, where it would rather be the creator of the site being under legal attack, not the ISP, since courts repeatedly ruled that the ISP is not responsible for content it hosts or transfers in it's network (in principle). The background for this is that it is merely impossible to create a web-site in Germany without having your full name, address, phone et cetera on the site. In other words, an anonymous web-site is illegal in Germany, which quite frankly sucks and is not right in my opinion. Thus any party who wants to sue you will address you directly, not by threatening the ISP necessarily. Not that they wouldn't try, though.
__________________
For a moment, nothing happened.
Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.
D. Adams -- THHGTTG

You're a sick man.
The Atheist

Last edited by wahrheit; 18th February 2008 at 03:30 PM.
wahrheit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 03:34 PM   #8
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 25,502
Unfortunately in the UK we have Godfrey v. Demon.
Quote:
...the court found that an Internet service provider can be sued for libel, and that any transmission by a service provider of a defamatory posting constituted a publication under defamation law.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 03:50 PM   #9
Loss Leader
Opinionated Jerk
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 16,117
Originally Posted by wahrheit View Post
My excuse: I was mentally stuck in German (European?) law, where it would rather be the creator of the site being under legal attack, not the ISP, since courts repeatedly ruled that the ISP is not responsible for content it hosts or transfers in it's network (in principle).

In the US, ISPs are protected from such suits by the Communications Decency Act. However, being able to ultimately defend such a suit competes strongly with the desire to avoid any lawsuits on any basis at any cost. Some ISPs are braver than others.
__________________
"I recognize the problem ... but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up." Jabba

What is my Gladiator Profile?
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 05:02 PM   #10
Acleron
Master Poster
 
Acleron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,290
Netcetera sucks. There I've said it!. Perhaps I'll be lucky and they try to sue me. If not perhaps a Google will associate the two words. I can't think of a word worse than coward but perhaps the phrase 'spineless jellies' get closer but still doesn't get close to what they are.

Quackometer, when you have set up again please post here so we know the new URL.
Acleron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 02:11 AM   #11
shpalman
Thinker
 
shpalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
The trick is to find an ISP who is sympathetic, or who doesn't care about baseless legal threats.
He was already moving across to postive internet, who offered their services when Netcetera first caved in. That requires a bit of porting, which now just has to go a bit faster. All Netcetera have achieved with this is some negative publicity.

(Edit: the T&C of my host is something like "don't annoy Simon".)
__________________
--
Opinions expressed in this posting are subject to change without notice

Last edited by shpalman; 19th February 2008 at 02:17 AM.
shpalman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 03:28 PM   #12
lecanardnoir
New Blood
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
wahrheit - the point is that both the homeopaths and Obi did know my home address. They chose to attack my hosts because a) their complaints were groundless and b) they realised the hosts were the weakest link. In both cases, no substantiation of their grievance was offer, or even their grievance clearly stated. They just cried 'take down the site' or we will sue.

So, I have some technical work (a port from asp to php) but am well underway to move to Postive Internet - who have been extraordinarily kind and want to host the site for free just to make the point. Bless them.

All URLs will stay the same. You will notice no change (I hope) - just a few more pages!
lecanardnoir is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 03:43 PM   #13
wahrheit
Pac-Man
 
wahrheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,585
Originally Posted by lecanardnoir View Post
wahrheit - the point is that both the homeopaths and Obi did know my home address. They chose to attack my hosts because a) their complaints were groundless and b) they realised the hosts were the weakest link. In both cases, no substantiation of their grievance was offer, or even their grievance clearly stated. They just cried 'take down the site' or we will sue.
Thanks for giving first hand feedback! Given that Obi et al knew your home address, there is no other explanation for me than that your ex host is a spineless non-service company.

Originally Posted by lecanardnoir View Post
So, I have some technical work (a port from asp to php) but am well underway to move to Postive Internet - who have been extraordinarily kind and want to host the site for free just to make the point. Bless them.
This, on the other hand, is some really good news! An interwebs provider offering to host your site for free just to make a point - almost unbelievable. Kudos to them and hope your site is up and running again pretty soon.
__________________
For a moment, nothing happened.
Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.
D. Adams -- THHGTTG

You're a sick man.
The Atheist
wahrheit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 04:02 PM   #14
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 25,502
Another blog post about Netcetera caving in, on Holfordwatch this time.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 07:32 PM   #15
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 19,989
Is this something skeptics could do? Write to the ISP of hosts demanding that they take down the woo sites or we will sue?

I know this is a rather nasty tactic.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2008, 12:14 AM   #16
shpalman
Thinker
 
shpalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Is this something skeptics could do? Write to the ISP of hosts demanding that they take down the woo sites or we will sue?
Unfortunately there isn't a recognised offence of "defaming the truth".
__________________
--
Opinions expressed in this posting are subject to change without notice

Last edited by shpalman; 20th February 2008 at 12:14 AM.
shpalman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2008, 01:22 AM   #17
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,446
Originally Posted by shpalman View Post
Unfortunately there isn't a recognised offence of "defaming the truth".
Doesn't matter since they will fold on the mere whiff a lawsuit why not go after them all and let
god sort it out(or the courts)

Last edited by tsig; 20th February 2008 at 01:28 AM. Reason: bad keyboard
tsig is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2008, 01:27 AM   #18
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 34,446
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Is this something skeptics could do? Write to the ISP of hosts demanding that they take down the woo sites or we will sue?

I know this is a rather nasty tactic.
Apparently anyone could do it just make the claim and they will fold. Why is it nasty?
tsig is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2008, 01:28 AM   #19
shpalman
Thinker
 
shpalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Doesn't matter since they will fold on the mere whiff a lawsuit why not go after them all and let go sort it out(or the courts)
It's the woos who complain they are being suppressed by big pharma while firing off lawyer's letters to suppress anyone who tells the truth about them - if we actually did try to suppress them it would only vindicate them. I don't think we should sink to their level. When there are genuine legal concerns (for example, false advertising or malpractice) then exploit those.
__________________
--
Opinions expressed in this posting are subject to change without notice
shpalman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2008, 06:23 AM   #20
tkingdoll
AKA TEEK
 
tkingdoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,418
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Is this something skeptics could do? Write to the ISP of hosts demanding that they take down the woo sites or we will sue?

I know this is a rather nasty tactic.
Anyone can write to any ISP claiming they've been libeled. Whether or not the ISP takes the site down depends on how jittery they are.

But unless you have actually been libelled on a site, I don't see on what grounds you would send the letter anyway. Plus, it's really, really bad PR for skeptics.
__________________

www.stormmovie.net

Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie
tkingdoll is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2008, 01:57 AM   #21
CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing
 
CFLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42,377
Can I see the offending blog entry?
__________________
SkepticReport.com
CFLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2008, 02:11 AM   #22
shpalman
Thinker
 
shpalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 205
Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Can I see the offending blog entry?
See http://shpalman.livejournal.com/8711.html and links therein.
__________________
--
Opinions expressed in this posting are subject to change without notice
shpalman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2008, 02:51 AM   #23
CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing
 
CFLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42,377
Originally Posted by shpalman View Post
Thanks.

I don't see any problems hosting that on a Danish ISP.
__________________
SkepticReport.com
CFLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2008, 02:16 AM   #24
lecanardnoir
New Blood
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
Rumours of the Quackometers demise have been greatly exaggerated.

The duck has risen phoenix like from the ashes of its Netcetera hosts and is now up and running with Positive Internet, hosts to very funny and clever people like Ricky Gervais. It also hosts Ben Goldacre's Bad Science.

Much thanks to all.
lecanardnoir is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2008, 06:41 AM   #25
tkingdoll
AKA TEEK
 
tkingdoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,418
W00t!
__________________

www.stormmovie.net

Official website of Tim Minchin's Storm Movie
tkingdoll is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:01 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.