Why did the WTC columns pull in?

Newtons Bit

Penultimate Amazing
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Apr 12, 2007
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Why did the columns bow in? There’s been quite a bit of speculation and misinformed opinion about the mechanics of the structure that caused that, so I hope to do a little bit of enlightenment. The first thing that needs to be looked at is the problem. Figure 1 shows a typical building section through a building such as the WTC towers.

undamaged.JPG

Figure 1

Everything here is fairly straight forward. The gravity load path can be seen very easily. The floor trusses deliver the vertical floor loads to the columns which deliver them to the foundations. But what happens when a core column is severed as in Figure 2?

damaged.JPG

Figure 2
Things start to get a little bit more complicated. The first thing that should dawn on most people is that the floor is no longer being supported by the middle column which is going to cause some problems. The middle column will drop unless there is a force that can resist it, see Figure 3.

damaged2.JPG

Figure 3


As the column drops, the top chord of the floor truss develops tensile forces (it is quite literally stretched). This tensile force has two parts, a vertical portion that pulls the column up and a horizontal force that pulls the rest of the structure in. This can be seen in Figure 4.

damaged3.JPG

Figure 4


The other things to note here is that the left column is still under its full axial loading (P2, which will be important in the analysis). The left column is already shown pulled in to some degree, however it is not to scale. Further modifying the problem, we know that the fires caused the trusses to sag to some degree. If the fire is hot enough, the truss will become a tension only member. This means that the top chord of the truss will act something like a rope and pull inwards at its connections. This can be seen in Figure 5. There is another condition as well (which I have no illustrated) that will cause the heated floor to expand outwards without losing its bending capacity and thus not sagging. It is a condition that likely proceeded that of the sagging floor trusses.

damagedandfire.JPG

Figure 5

NIST (1-6D) estimates that the total pull-in force at the exterior columns is roughly 6 kips (6,000lbs) at each column. The truss to column connection consisted of (2) 5/8” diameter bolts. Even non-structural grade bolts of this size will have a shear capacity of over 5kips each, so it is reasonable to assume that the top chord of the truss will not pull off of the columns at the connections due to a 6kip load.

Is this 6 kips enough to pull the column in several feet as seen in the photos of the tower?

nist1-6D-fig39.JPG

Math is needed here. First some assumptions need to be made. For the purpose of this analysis, let the exterior column be HSS14x14x5/16 tubes at 25% of the maximum axial load prior to any damage. The column has the following properties:

Similar to HSS 14x14x5/16
A = 15.7in^2
I = 739 in^4
S = 92.3 in ^3

Pn = 557k (from AISC LRFD 3rd, table 4-6 with an unbraced length, KL = 12’-4”)
Pu = ¼* 557k = 139k
Mn = 92.3in^3*46ksi = 4645 kip*in (Mn = maximum bending capacity)

The column itself will bend inwardly until it snaps if the column itself ever becomes inelastic. This can be defined by the ratio (I’ve simplified this a bit): Mu/Mn + Pu/Pn < 1. The other limit state is P-delta. When the exterior column is pulled inwards, it deflects. This deflection(Δ) generates a moment, specifically P2*Δ. This moment, creates more deflection, which further magnifies the moment, creating more moment, and so forth. P-delta has two outcomes: the moment reaches equilibrium at some point, or becomes unstable and continues to grow. This phenomenon can be easily shown with a simple experiment. Take a straw and try to compress it between your fingers. It has a surprising amount of strength. Now push the middle in slightly. This is p-delta.

We know that the floor diaphragm along the wall were greatly damaged due to fire and the impact of the aircraft. Let us assume that there are two floor diaphragms that are damaged to the point that they no longer provide bracing against buckling. There is thus a pull-in force of 6kips at two places along the length of the column.

column+problem.JPG

CALCULATION 1: DIAPHRAGM DAMAGE, NO FIRE EFFECTS
Unbraced length = 37’-0”
Pu = 139k
Pn = 465k (from AISC LRFD 3rd, table 4-6 with an unbraced length, KL = 37’-0”)
Mn = 4645 kip*in

Mu = P*a
Mu = 6kip*1/3*37ft
Mu = 74kip*ft or 888 kip*in


Deflection = P*a *(3L^2 – 4*a^2)/(24*E*I) (Formula from AISC LRFD 3rd)
a = 1/3*L
= P * 1/3L *(3L^2 – 4/9*L^2)/(24*E*I)
= 23*P*L^3/(1296*E*I)
= 23*6k*(37ft*12in/ft)^3/(1296*29000ksi*739in)
= 0.435in

Additional moment due to P-delta
Mu+ = 0.435in*139k = 61.02 kip*in


Additional Deflection = Mu+*L^2 / (4*EI)
= 61.02kip*in*(37 * 12ft\in)^2 / (4*29000ksi*739in^3)
= 0.140in

Additional moment due to P-delta2
Mu++ = (0.435+0.140)in*139k = 79.93 kip*in


Additional Deflection = Mu++*L^2 / (4*EI)
= 79.93kip*in*(37 * 12ft\in)^2 / (4*29000ksi*739in^3)
= 0.184in

As seen, the first p-delta iteration results in an increased deflection of 0.140in. The second results in a deflection of only 0.184in. We can thus conclude that p-delta will eventually converge and that no further iterations are necessary. The 6kip pull-in force with no effect of fire will not result in the column becoming unstable.


In a 600C fire, the Modulus of Elasticity will have reduced to approximately 0.3 of its original value, and the yield strength to 0.5 of its original value. The effect of the Modulus of Elasticity being so greatly lowered is of far greater important than the yield strength, however.

CALCULATION 2: DIAPHRAGM DAMAGE, 500C FIRE
Unbraced length = 37’-0”
E = 0.3*29000ksi = 8700ksi
Pu = 139k
Pn = 465k*0.5 = 233k
Mn = 4645 kip*in *0.5 = 2323kip*in

Mu = P*a
Mu = 6kip*1/3*37ft
Mu = 74kip*ft or 888 kip*in

Deflection = P*a *(3L^2 – 4*a^2)/(24*E*I) (Formula from AISC LRFD 3rd)
a = 1/3*L
= P * 1/3L *(3L^2 – 4/9*L^2)/(24*E*I)
= 23*P*L^3/(1296*E*I)
= 23*6k*(37ft*12in/ft)^3/(1296*8700ksi*739in)
= 1.45in

Additional moment due to P-delta
Mu+ = 1.45in*139k = 201.6 kip*in


Additional Deflection = Mu+*L^2 / (4*EI)
= 201.6kip*in*(37 * 12ft\in)^2 / (4*8700ksi*739in^3)
= 1.55in


Additional moment due to P-delta2
Mu++ = (1.45+1.55)in*139k = 417 kip*in

Additional Deflection = Mu++*L^2 / (4*EI)
= 417kip*in*(37 * 12ft\in)^2 / (4*8700ksi*739in^3)
= 3.20in

This results in the column becoming unstable due to p-delta. This can easily be seen in that the deflection due to P-delta2 is double that of P-delta1. It can therefore be concluded that it was necessary for both fire and damage to result in the collapse of the towers.

Edit: Apologies for the terrible formatting.
 
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Nicely presented, and well illustrated. The figures are reminiscent of Dr. Usmani's paper.

One thing I would add is that NIST estimated the strength of the truss-perimeter connections as a function of temperature, in Table 4-4 of NCSTAR1-6. At 600oC the strength was estimated at 9,000 pounds. These connections were at every other perimeter column; the intervening columns were attached with "elastic" dampening straps of unknown strength, as described on page 69 of NCSTAR1-6. At lower temperatures, the connections are considerably stronger -- rising to 21,000 pounds at 500oC.

Unfortunately, most of the conspiracy folks seem to deny that the bowing ever happened, such as realcddeal who won't believe in it without a "video," and Jim Hoffman who still thinks "heated air refraction" created this illusory effect. But hey, you tried.
 
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NB's post above is correct concerning whether perimeter columns could be drawn inward due to severed core columns at the other end of the floor truss. This would have happened fairly soon after the impacts, and on the side of the impacts where outer core columns would have been knocked out. This would have only been in a couple of areas as there weren't many severed core outer columns even on the side of the impact.

However, the aircraft hit the North Tower on the north face and it is the south face which NIST claims the perimeter columns were bowed inwards on. There were no outer core columns knocked out on the south side of the core.
 
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Nicely presented, and well illustrated. The figures are reminiscent of Dr. Usmani's paper.

One thing I would add is that NIST estimated the strength of the truss-perimeter connections as a function of temperature, in Table 4-4 of NCSTAR1-6. At 600oC the strength was estimated at 9,000 pounds. These connections were at every other perimeter column; the intervening columns were attached with "elastic" dampening straps of unknown strength, as described on page 69 of NCSTAR1-6. At lower temperatures, the connections are considerably stronger -- rising to 21,000 pounds at 500oC.

Unfortunately, most of the conspiracy folks seem to deny that the bowing ever happened, such as realcddeal who won't believe in it without a "video," and Jim Hoffman who still thinks "heated air refraction" created this illusory effect. But hey, you tried.


Oh, but I do believe the perimeter columns were pulled inward by the trusses, and in pretty much the manner that NB describes it. The only difference between you and I is I believe it happened when the core columns were taken out, causing the floors to pull on the perimeter columns as NB describes.

Thank you NB for getting this out there. This is the mechanism I have been proposing for quite some time.
 
Oh, but I do believe the perimeter columns were pulled inward by the trusses, and in pretty much the manner that NB describes it. The only difference between you and I is I believe it happened when the core columns were taken out, causing the floors to pull on the perimeter columns as NB describes.

Thank you NB for getting this out there. This is the mechanism I have been proposing for quite some time.

You are correct, there is a subtlety. You don't believe in pull-in for times well before collapse initiation, that's what I should have said. This is also wrong, as shown by numerous photographs of the phenomenon.
 
What about Leonhard Euler's formula?
He's simply showing that the structure is unstable at temperature -- the equations do not converge. Buckling (if that's what you are aiming at) doen't even enter the picture-yet.
there is no need for any additional bewilderment of the unwashed masses...
 
This 'pulling in' of the columns is a major point for us laymen trying to weigh the opinions of so-called expert truthers and mainstream engineers. This sagging is SO obvious, and the explanations about what is probably happening internally at that time IMO is like we have a video confirmation of the 'official story'.

IMO there is NO way that a building with cameras pointed at it point blank could be demolished with nobody noticing. What the cameras show is exactly what the REAL experts say is most likely to have happened that day inside those doomed buildings.
 
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Why did the columns bow in? There’s been quite a bit of speculation and misinformed opinion about the mechanics of the structure that caused that, so I hope to do a little bit of enlightenment. The first thing that needs to be looked at is the problem. Figure 1 shows a typical building section through a building such as the WTC towers.

[qimg]http://bp0.blogger.com/_-e0bzNzFdXc/R8CEQMUe5ZI/AAAAAAAAANE/n3IPShZyePs/s400/undamaged.JPG[/qimg]
Figure 1

Everything here is fairly straight forward. The gravity load path can be seen very easily. The floor trusses deliver the vertical floor loads to the columns which deliver them to the foundations. But what happens when a core column is severed as in Figure 2?

[qimg]http://bp0.blogger.com/_-e0bzNzFdXc/R8CEQMUe5aI/AAAAAAAAANM/_q66ZrknFQQ/s400/damaged.JPG[/qimg]
Figure 2
Things start to get a little bit more complicated. The first thing that should dawn on most people is that the floor is no longer being supported by the middle column which is going to cause some problems. The middle column will drop unless there is a force that can resist it, see Figure 3.

[qimg]http://bp1.blogger.com/_-e0bzNzFdXc/R8CEQcUe5bI/AAAAAAAAANU/42-9SZhdzjA/s400/damaged2.JPG[/qimg]
Figure 3


As the column drops, the top chord of the floor truss develops tensile forces (it is quite literally stretched). This tensile force has two parts, a vertical portion that pulls the column up and a horizontal force that pulls the rest of the structure in. This can be seen in Figure 4.

[qimg]http://bp2.blogger.com/_-e0bzNzFdXc/R8CEQsUe5cI/AAAAAAAAANc/AWO840doGX4/s400/damaged3.JPG[/qimg]
Figure 4


The other things to note here is that the left column is still under its full axial loading (P2, which will be important in the analysis). The left column is already shown pulled in to some degree, however it is not to scale. Further modifying the problem, we know that the fires caused the trusses to sag to some degree. If the fire is hot enough, the truss will become a tension only member. This means that the top chord of the truss will act something like a rope and pull inwards at its connections. This can be seen in Figure 5. There is another condition as well (which I have no illustrated) that will cause the heated floor to expand outwards without losing its bending capacity and thus not sagging. It is a condition that likely proceeded that of the sagging floor trusses.

[qimg]http://bp3.blogger.com/_-e0bzNzFdXc/R8CEQ8Ue5dI/AAAAAAAAANk/1oki6IVZ0ls/s400/damagedandfire.JPG[/qimg]
Figure 5

NIST (1-6D) estimates that the total pull-in force at the exterior columns is roughly 6 kips (6,000lbs) at each column. The truss to column connection consisted of (2) 5/8” diameter bolts. Even non-structural grade bolts of this size will have a shear capacity of over 5kips each, so it is reasonable to assume that the top chord of the truss will not pull off of the columns at the connections due to a 6kip load.

Is this 6 kips enough to pull the column in several feet as seen in the photos of the tower?

[qimg]http://bp0.blogger.com/_-e0bzNzFdXc/R8CFUMUe5eI/AAAAAAAAANs/r8Tb9QuweDQ/s400/nist1-6D-fig39.JPG[/qimg]​

Math is needed here. First some assumptions need to be made. For the purpose of this analysis, let the exterior column be HSS14x14x5/16 tubes at 25% of the maximum axial load prior to any damage. The column has the following properties:

Similar to HSS 14x14x5/16
A = 15.7in^2
I = 739 in^4
S = 92.3 in ^3

Pn = 557k (from AISC LRFD 3rd, table 4-6 with an unbraced length, KL = 12’-4”)
Pu = ¼* 557k = 139k
Mn = 92.3in^3*46ksi = 4645 kip*in (Mn = maximum bending capacity)

The column itself will bend inwardly until it snaps if the column itself ever becomes inelastic. This can be defined by the ratio (I’ve simplified this a bit): Mu/Mn + Pu/Pn < 1. The other limit state is P-delta. When the exterior column is pulled inwards, it deflects. This deflection(Δ) generates a moment, specifically P2*Δ. This moment, creates more deflection, which further magnifies the moment, creating more moment, and so forth. P-delta has two outcomes: the moment reaches equilibrium at some point, or becomes unstable and continues to grow. This phenomenon can be easily shown with a simple experiment. Take a straw and try to compress it between your fingers. It has a surprising amount of strength. Now push the middle in slightly. This is p-delta.

We know that the floor diaphragm along the wall were greatly damaged due to fire and the impact of the aircraft. Let us assume that there are two floor diaphragms that are damaged to the point that they no longer provide bracing against buckling. There is thus a pull-in force of 6kips at two places along the length of the column.

[qimg]http://bp0.blogger.com/_-e0bzNzFdXc/R8CFUMUe5fI/AAAAAAAAAN0/qo_9SjB8HgA/s400/column+problem.JPG[/qimg]
CALCULATION 1: DIAPHRAGM DAMAGE, NO FIRE EFFECTS
Unbraced length = 37’-0”
Pu = 139k
Pn = 465k (from AISC LRFD 3rd, table 4-6 with an unbraced length, KL = 37’-0”)
Mn = 4645 kip*in

Mu = P*a
Mu = 6kip*1/3*37ft
Mu = 74kip*ft or 888 kip*in


Deflection = P*a *(3L^2 – 4*a^2)/(24*E*I) (Formula from AISC LRFD 3rd)
a = 1/3*L
= P * 1/3L *(3L^2 – 4/9*L^2)/(24*E*I)
= 23*P*L^3/(1296*E*I)
= 23*6k*(37ft*12in/ft)^3/(1296*29000ksi*739in)
= 0.435in

Additional moment due to P-delta
Mu+ = 0.435in*139k = 61.02 kip*in


Additional Deflection = Mu+*L^2 / (4*EI)
= 61.02kip*in*(37 * 12ft\in)^2 / (4*29000ksi*739in^3)
= 0.140in

Additional moment due to P-delta2
Mu++ = (0.435+0.140)in*139k = 79.93 kip*in


Additional Deflection = Mu++*L^2 / (4*EI)
= 79.93kip*in*(37 * 12ft\in)^2 / (4*29000ksi*739in^3)
= 0.184in

As seen, the first p-delta iteration results in an increased deflection of 0.140in. The second results in a deflection of only 0.184in. We can thus conclude that p-delta will eventually converge and that no further iterations are necessary. The 6kip pull-in force with no effect of fire will not result in the column becoming unstable.


In a 600C fire, the Modulus of Elasticity will have reduced to approximately 0.3 of its original value, and the yield strength to 0.5 of its original value. The effect of the Modulus of Elasticity being so greatly lowered is of far greater important than the yield strength, however.

CALCULATION 2: DIAPHRAGM DAMAGE, 500C FIRE
Unbraced length = 37’-0”
E = 0.3*29000ksi = 8700ksi
Pu = 139k
Pn = 465k*0.5 = 233k
Mn = 4645 kip*in *0.5 = 2323kip*in

Mu = P*a
Mu = 6kip*1/3*37ft
Mu = 74kip*ft or 888 kip*in

Deflection = P*a *(3L^2 – 4*a^2)/(24*E*I) (Formula from AISC LRFD 3rd)
a = 1/3*L
= P * 1/3L *(3L^2 – 4/9*L^2)/(24*E*I)
= 23*P*L^3/(1296*E*I)
= 23*6k*(37ft*12in/ft)^3/(1296*8700ksi*739in)
= 1.45in

Additional moment due to P-delta
Mu+ = 1.45in*139k = 201.6 kip*in


Additional Deflection = Mu+*L^2 / (4*EI)
= 201.6kip*in*(37 * 12ft\in)^2 / (4*8700ksi*739in^3)
= 1.55in


Additional moment due to P-delta2
Mu++ = (1.45+1.55)in*139k = 417 kip*in

Additional Deflection = Mu++*L^2 / (4*EI)
= 417kip*in*(37 * 12ft\in)^2 / (4*8700ksi*739in^3)
= 3.20in

This results in the column becoming unstable due to p-delta. This can easily be seen in that the deflection due to P-delta2 is double that of P-delta1. It can therefore be concluded that it was necessary for both fire and damage to result in the collapse of the towers.

Edit: Apologies for the terrible formatting.

I cannot understand how the middle column in fig. 2 suddenly disappears! Who took it away?
 
Oh, but I do believe the perimeter columns were pulled inward by the trusses, and in pretty much the manner that NB describes it. The only difference between you and I is I believe it happened when the core columns were taken out, causing the floors to pull on the perimeter columns as NB describes.

Thank you NB for getting this out there. This is the mechanism I have been proposing for quite some time.
Yes, with silent, no blast effect explosives. Cool. When will you have some evidence?. How long do we have until you produce a scenario or evidence to back up the fantasy of explosives?
 
No. That was much earlier. The outside wall was not deformed inward then.

Duh. Nobody suggests that the crash of the airliners caused the deformation--this happened after the subsequent fire weakened the steel, especially the area weakened by the impact.

Exactly what do you mean?
 
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The other thing to keep in mind is that the same mechanism applies if either:

a) Core columns are not removed, but rather are shortened through creep

b) Core columns are not removed or shortened, but trusses experience caternary deformation

Case b) at least has photographic evidence, and case a) is pretty straightforward given the expected temperatures.

It does, also, apply in areas where columns are actually destroyed, but it does not require that. As stated above, see Usmani et al. for a similar derivation.
 
Usmani et al. I think I had that sushi last night with a nice Asahi lager.
 
Yes, with silent, no blast effect explosives. Cool. When will you have some evidence?. How long do we have until you produce a scenario or evidence to back up the fantasy of explosives?

Are you a molten metal denier?

Where is Max when you need him?
 
The other thing to keep in mind is that the same mechanism applies if either:

a) Core columns are not removed, but rather are shortened through creep

b) Core columns are not removed or shortened, but trusses experience caternary deformation

Case b) at least has photographic evidence, and case a) is pretty straightforward given the expected temperatures.

It does, also, apply in areas where columns are actually destroyed, but it does not require that. As stated above, see Usmani et al. for a similar derivation.

How much shortening through creep would you estimate for the core columns?
 
Exactly how does molten metal, even if it existed, support a CD theory?
 
realcddeal:

That all depends on the time-temperature-load profile for the column of interest and that varied from column to column.
 
realcddeal:

That all depends on the time-temperature-load profile for the column of interest and that varied from column to column.

Oh, I HATE when people whom I wish didn't but nevertheless DO know what they are talking about raise interesting points!
 
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Exactly how does molten metal, even if it existed, support a CD theory?


Let's not derail here, guys.
Don't let the twoofers off the hook that easily. They've run up agin' it real hard, here, and are attempting to hijack the thread.

There are lots of "Molten Metal" threads to play in. Let's leave this one to the bowing.
 
Usmani et al. I think I had that sushi last night with a nice Asahi lager.


Make it a Sapporo and you're on!

realcddeal:

That all depends on the time-temperature-load profile for the column of interest and that varied from column to column.


I was just going to ask if the Usmani paper had a time plot. I will be the first to admit that I am not a structural engineer, and have had to go back to my husband's metallurgy books for some of these discussions, but it seems to me that the length of time between the impact and the collapse should make it easier to rule out (or in) what is plausible.
 
Let's not derail here, guys.
Don't let the twoofers off the hook that easily. They've run up agin' it real hard, here, and are attempting to hijack the thread.

There are lots of "Molten Metal" threads to play in. Let's leave this one to the bowing.

Yes. I agree. Molten Metal most certainly does not ROCK!

The cameras pointed on the WTC for hours prior to the collapse are the key. Sadly for truthers, their conspiracy was observed in detail and shown to be crap.
 
How much shortening through creep would you estimate for the core columns?

Not an easy thing to estimate, and I don't feel remotely qualified to throw a WAG at it. It depends on load and temperature, and that depends on impact damage, fireproofing damage, combustible fuel distribution, oxygen availability, and time.

NIST estimated creep on the order of 8 inches in the core of WTC 1 at t+100 minutes, as seen in Figure 8-18 in NCSTAR1-6, and 12 inches in WTC 2 at t+43 minutes, in Figure 8-37. WTC 1 preferentially creeps in the center with little effect at corners and perimeter, while WTC 2 creeps throughout and leaning slightly.
 
realcddeal:

That all depends on the time-temperature-load profile for the column of interest and that varied from column to column.

Time-temperature may have varied, but the unit stress was the same for each column at a specific floor. This was done to eliminate warpage between the core and perimeter due to differential deflections. Of course, that would have changed slightly, due to the aircraft damage, and the extra load would probably not have been distributed in a perfectly uniform way, but it wouldn't be way off either.

I have looked at this and for the 98th floor, with 20% of its core columns incapacitated, the unit stress would go from approximately 10,800 psi to 13,500 psi on the 36,000 psi yield strength A36 steel.

With these unit stresses it is hard to imagine very much creep occurring due to office fire temperatures, especially not at the relatively low temperatures which the actual core columns, which NIST did testing on, saw.

It would have been very nice if all the steel from the fire affected areas was saved. Unfortunately, it is hard to see any innocent reasons for why it wasn't.
 
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This is an awesome thread. Thank you NB. You've cleared a lot of things up for me in your simple anaylsis.

Mackey: Doesn't his model also demonstrate that core column cutting due to therm?te (assuming proper therm?te cutting devices exist) theoretically could have been the culprit too? I'm pretty sure firgure 3 and 4 support the notion that cut core columns alone, could result in perimeter bowing.
 
This is an awesome thread. Thank you NB. You've cleared a lot of things up for me in your simple anaylsis.

Mackey: Doesn't his model also demonstrate that core column cutting due to therm?te (assuming proper therm?te cutting devices exist) theoretically could have been the culprit too? I'm pretty sure firgure 3 and 4 support the notion that cut core columns alone, could result in perimeter bowing.


Did you understand the difference between Calculation 1 and Calculation 2?
 
Did you understand the difference between Calculation 1 and Calculation 2?

Yes I do.

Calculation1= no fire=slight bowing=no collapse

Calculation2=fire=increased bowing=collapse

(simply put)

But in both calculations, bowing occurs.
 
This is an awesome thread. Thank you NB. You've cleared a lot of things up for me in your simple anaylsis.

Mackey: Doesn't his model also demonstrate that core column cutting due to therm?te (assuming proper therm?te cutting devices exist) theoretically could have been the culprit too? I'm pretty sure firgure 3 and 4 support the notion that cut core columns alone, could result in perimeter bowing.

I'm glad I could help.

Not impossible, but exceedingly improbable. For the CD theory to work here, the columns would have to be severed by whatever fantastical therm*te charges, then have kicker chargers on them that would push a piece away from the column so that the top just doesn't rest on the bottom. The exterior columns would still need to be at about 600c, and therm*te ain't going to work there. Most of the length of column needs to be heated to near 600c. Just a small piece of it heated up, such as in Max Photon's fantasy isn't going to cause the inwards bowing. However there's still problems with this scenario: the kicker charges would be heard, the fire still needs to be HOT and there needs to be severe damage to the floor slab (by heat or collision).

edit: My figures are not to scale. An inward bowing of 1 inch at that scale wouldn't be noticeable, thus they are exaggerated. With just the core column losses, the inwards bowing of the perimeter would not be noticeable.
 
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edit: My figures are not to scale. An inward bowing of 1 inch at that scale wouldn't be noticeable, thus they are exaggerated. With just the core column losses, the inwards bowing of the perimeter would not be noticeable.


And you just gave away the punchline. I was hoping Sizzler would figure out the actual values for the bowing on his own. :(
 
Nb wrote:
With just the core column losses, the inwards bowing of the perimeter would not be noticeable.

And if more core columns were cut then expected due to impact and fire?

Would that not increase bowing?
 
I'm glad I could help.

Not impossible, but exceedingly improbable. For the CD theory to work here, the columns would have to be severed by whatever fantastical therm*te charges, then have kicker chargers on them that would push a piece away from the column so that the top just doesn't rest on the bottom. The exterior columns would still need to be at about 600c, and therm*te ain't going to work there. Most of the length of column needs to be heated to near 600c. Just a small piece of it heated up, such as in Max Photon's fantasy isn't going to cause the inwards bowing. However there's still problems with this scenario: the kicker charges would be heard, the fire still needs to be HOT and there needs to be severe damage to the floor slab (by heat or collision).

edit: My figures are not to scale. An inward bowing of 1 inch at that scale wouldn't be noticeable, thus they are exaggerated. With just the core column losses, the inwards bowing of the perimeter would not be noticeable.

I understand what you are saying and I agree that it is improbable for collapse initiation to be caused by the above model, but using therm?te as the culprit instead of fire+collapse damage.

Assuming a different model caused collapse initiation and assuming cutting core columns (via therm?te) was part of that model, would a large amount of cut core columns not result in observed bowing?
 
Time-temperature may have varied, but the unit stress was the same for each column at a specific floor. This was done to eliminate warpage between the core and perimeter due to differential deflections. Of course, that would have changed slightly, due to the aircraft damage, and the extra load would probably not have been distributed in a perfectly uniform way, but it wouldn't be way off either.

I have looked at this and for the 98th floor, with 20% of its core columns incapacitated, the unit stress would go from approximately 10,800 psi to 13,500 psi on the 36,000 psi yield strength A36 steel.

With these unit stresses it is hard to imagine very much creep occurring due to office fire temperatures, especially not at the relatively low temperatures which the actual core columns, which NIST did testing on, saw.

It would have been very nice if all the steel from the fire affected areas was saved. Unfortunately, it is hard to see any innocent reasons for why it wasn't.

And what exactly would those temperatures be? Over 1000 deg C?
 

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