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Tags homeopathy , Nancy Malik

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Old 14th March 2008, 05:57 AM   #1
Rolfe
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Homoeopathy thread for Dr. Nancy Malik

I'm tired of following Nancy round every homoeopathy-related thread she could find to bump with her repetitious posts. Most of the time, her contributions represent a marked derail.

Maybe she doesn't know how to start a new thread.

So here, in a spirit of openness to new debate, is a thread for Nancy to concentrate on. All the points she wants to make, in the one place. No need to trawl round umpteen threads in at least two forums, and then find when you've done that, you've just read the same post five times.

I'd like to debate some substantive points. So, Nancy, please use this thread to make the points you would like to debate.

Rolfe.

(Fat chance I know, but it's worth a try.)
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Old 14th March 2008, 06:19 AM   #2
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Is there any particular reason to follow her around or respond to her in the first place? Who would take what she says seriously anyway?

Linda
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Old 14th March 2008, 06:29 AM   #3
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I seem to remember Kumar implying that posters here agreed with him because they hadn't responded to something he'd posted.
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Old 14th March 2008, 06:36 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
Is there any particular reason to follow her around or respond to her in the first place? Who would take what she says seriously anyway?

Indeed, I agree, there's been nothing much to respond to. However, how can one know that without actually opening each thread she's posted in and reading her posts? This takes time.

She's a new homoeopath. I welcome substantive debate with new homoeopaths. If she has any substantive points to make, then I'd like them in one place, please. Here would be fine.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th March 2008, 06:52 AM   #5
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Hasn't homeopathy been beaten to death?
I'd like to see more crop circles, frankly.
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Old 14th March 2008, 07:10 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
Hasn't homeopathy been beaten to death?
I'd like to see more crop circles, frankly.
Get some string and some bits of wood, and off you go.

I don't see any harm starting a thread to keep all the new contributions from Dr Nancy in one place.
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Old 14th March 2008, 09:50 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So here, in a spirit of openness to new debate, is a thread for Nancy to concentrate on.
Homeopaths don't concentrate, they dilute.
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Old 14th March 2008, 10:58 AM   #8
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Homeopaths mess with our focus. They distract our mind from the rational doom we have come to believe in. At its best, homepathy is sorcery, and that's what some people need to turn the tides in their will-power.
At its worst, homeopathy allows people to sell water for a lot of money, and possibly prevent a person from seeking a more legitimate treatment.

However, legitimate treatment, which isn't scoring all that well in the U.S., is often out of the question for simple folks with health problems.

Its important to feel like you're taking command of an illness while you basicly wait for its symptoms to evaporate.

Stuff skeptics keep in their medicine cabinets are fairly woo in their own right, compared to correcting unhealthy behaviour.

Homeopathy, I suspect, is a means to distract a person from their normal background chatter. Now that its ruined, hopefully, we can get on with the next best sorcery.

My prejudice is this:

Groovy, unscientific, spiritual love stuff HAS to be free.
That's all it has going for it, if that.

If someone wants to fluff my aura, its not going to cost me a dime.

(actually, I charge woosters to fluff my aura)
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Old 14th March 2008, 11:10 AM   #9
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Anyway,

crop circles are lovely to behold.
I could care less who makes them.
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Old 14th March 2008, 12:38 PM   #10
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I welcome a discussion of homeopathy. I think that even homeopaths will accept that, from a strictly molecular standpoint, their is none of the original compound left in a 30C dilution.

So I wonder what mechanisms are left. Each of those water molecules has had proximity to 10^XX other molecules besides the intended compound in a homeopathic preparation, so how is any property of the intended compound isolated and maintained?

And let's not forget: before too much discussion of mechanism, is there even a clinical effect in the first place? I have not heard of any clinical trial that found an effect beyond that expected by the placebo effect.

I have friends who subscribe to homeopathy, so I welcome a deeper knowledge of both the claims and the actual science to inform my discussion with them.
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Old 15th March 2008, 06:25 AM   #11
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Testing a homeopathic mixture against a placebo would be darn interesting.
It would be like placebo vs placebo.
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Old 15th March 2008, 07:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
Anyway,

crop circles are lovely to behold.
I could care less who makes them.
[derail]Now, there is a weird Americanish idiom that always irritates me. I'm sure you could care less, but I think you mean you couldn't care less.[/derail]
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Old 15th March 2008, 07:56 AM   #13
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OK, here goes.

Thrusting his trusty wand forwards and with a look of grim determination he succusses it repeatedly. There is a flash of infinitely diluted light and Badly Shaved Potter says;


GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION.


[Are you sure that's your wand, Potter?] Ed.
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Old 15th March 2008, 05:56 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Now, there is a weird Americanish idiom that always irritates me. I'm sure you could care less, but I think you mean you couldn't care less.
It's called "sarcasm", wise guy.
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Old 16th March 2008, 02:42 AM   #15
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I hope Nancy Malik comes back. Since she's fond of cutting and pasting random arguments from the user "chiongguo" on otherhealth.com, I was hoping she could elaborate on something said over there. From this post here :

"The potassium iodide (KI) mother solution (0.1M) was diluted in the standard way (without potentisation) or with potentisation (succussion by hand - by striking the vial 60 times against a large book as used traditionally) to 10-3M, 10-6M, 10-10M, 10-16M, 10-17M and 10-24M KI solutions."
(Jerman, Berden, Skarja)

Perhaps she could clear up exactly which large book must be used. I've had many questions about this for a while that only Nancy can answer!
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Old 16th March 2008, 02:46 AM   #16
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Well, she has the recipe seriously wrong. Succussion should be only 2 strikes, and never more than 10. So by golly, 60 strikes should create nuclear fusion!
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Old 16th March 2008, 03:07 AM   #17
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Perhaps Nancy could tell us her optimal number of strikes, and how she came about that number? That would be a fascinating story to hear.
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Old 16th March 2008, 12:51 PM   #18
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Dr Nancy Malik, was it you who recently answered this question?

Quote:
Is homoeopathy a better substitute to antibiotics?

In short, Yes

Even Allopathic medical community is fed by the side effects of anti-biotics, so have come up with pro-biotics now.

Homoeopathy is an effective alternate to antibiotics in infectious diseases, producing no toxic side effects and bringing about rapid recovery. Homoeopathy has definite treatment for most of the infectious disease such as Sinusitis, Tonsillitis, Bronchitis, Pneumonia, Tuberculosis, Meningitis, Otitis media (pus from ear), Gastroenteritis (vomiting-diarrhea), Dysentery, Urinary Infections, etc.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_homoeop...to_antibiotics

If so, would you please provide the scientific evidence in support of these assertions.

Thank you.

ETA: For those interested, there are another 146 contributions here:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Special:Co...0Nancy%20Malik

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Old 16th March 2008, 02:08 PM   #19
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Nancy? I know you're there somewhere!

Rolfe.
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Old 16th March 2008, 02:17 PM   #20
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She's hiding.

You're formidable.
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Old 16th March 2008, 08:17 PM   #21
Dr. Nancy Malik
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Originally Posted by Blue Wode View Post
Dr Nancy Malik, was it you who recently answered this question?




If so, would you please provide the scientific evidence in support of these assertions.

Thank you.

ETA: For those interested, there are another 146 contributions here:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Special:Co...0Nancy%20Malik
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Old 16th March 2008, 08:18 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
She's hiding.

You're formidable.
I am here only, sir
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Old 16th March 2008, 08:57 PM   #23
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Oh, you are here! Woo Hoo!

Now answer my question on how well homeopathy works for the following two conditions versus modern medicine (antibiotics and vaccines). Please include verifiable documentation (www.pubmed.gov links are preferred, not century old case studies or anecdotes from some random clinic):

1) syphilis

2) rabies
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Old 16th March 2008, 08:57 PM   #24
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So, Nancy, you are here and you seem to have a lot to say.

Care to respond to the questions put above?

Many thanks!
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Old 16th March 2008, 08:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'd like to debate some substantive points. So, Nancy, please use this thread to make the points you would like to debate.
Originally Posted by Dr. Nancy Malik View Post
I am here only, sir
Good to have you back, I look forward to your addressing the OP.
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Old 16th March 2008, 09:37 PM   #26
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I was looking forward to seeing how this thread worked out as I have never really read any of the Dr's (using term loosely) stuff but after seeing the Dr's location, I am not expecting too much.

There is more woo and BS in that country than there is country.
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Old 17th March 2008, 08:23 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by PBTree View Post
I was looking forward to seeing how this thread worked out as I have never really read any of the Dr's (using term loosely) stuff but after seeing the Dr's location, I am not expecting too much.

There is more woo and BS in that country than there is country.
As you are not expecting much, I hope you won't bother me much
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Old 17th March 2008, 08:36 AM   #28
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Though it is a big thing to ask, I would like all anti-homoeopathy guys to have open mind while discussing.

I know being open for you is to answer every question of yours, particularly you will ask for proof and evedience for everything, which might not be possible for me. But whatever I have learned from my education (5 1/2 years of bachelor's degree in Homoeopathy) and from my clinical experience of aprrox five years (which is too small as of now) I will try to put it over here.

Let me outline my discussion. It is not a fixed one but just a guideline. I hope to discuss allopathy at a broader level (as I don;t know much about it). To discuss allopathy I mean comparing it with homoeopathy.

I hope I would be abe to teach you at least the basics of Homoeopathy, provided u have an open mind, which I suspect. But lewt's give it a try. I promise I would attract many of anti-homoeopathy guys to this discussion and possibly few of Homoeopaths too. Let's have great going in coming weeks.
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Old 17th March 2008, 09:10 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dr. Nancy Malik View Post
Though it is a big thing to ask, I would like all anti-homoeopathy guys to have open mind while discussing.
We do.

We are simply waiting for any evidence of efficacy or mechanism in regards to homeopathy. So far, we haven't seen anything.

Quote:
I hope I would be abe to teach you at least the basics of Homoeopathy, provided u have an open mind, which I suspect.
I think you will find that many here know a great deal about homeopathy. They just don't believe it actually works. But we are always open to new findings, and we would be more than happy to discuss whatever you choose to present.
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Old 17th March 2008, 09:24 AM   #30
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Being duped into spending over 5 years... well, so you say, on magic water is not proof there is anything to it. Was that 5 years @ 2 hours a week, making that around 100 hours per year, or what?

Chiropractors get duped into spending crazy amounts of money on their philosophies and they get to call themselves doctors too. That doesn't mean they should be treating cancer cases. They learn practically nothing about the actual human immune system, and lots and lots and LOTS about marketing.


Your mind is not open to real medicine. You figure magic water is "safer" than real medicine with no real proof that it actually does anything.

And stop using the term "allopathy" unless you are refering to TCM.

We're not anti-homeopathy, we're anti-quackery in general based on the fact that it does nothing for anyone with a serious ailment.
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Old 17th March 2008, 09:30 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Dr. Nancy Malik View Post
Though it is a big thing to ask, I would like all anti-homoeopathy guys to have open mind while discussing.

I know being open for you is to answer every question of yours, particularly you will ask for proof and evedience for everything, which might not be possible for me. But whatever I have learned from my education (5 1/2 years of bachelor's degree in Homoeopathy) and from my clinical experience of aprrox five years (which is too small as of now) I will try to put it over here.

Let me outline my discussion. It is not a fixed one but just a guideline. I hope to discuss allopathy at a broader level (as I don;t know much about it). To discuss allopathy I mean comparing it with homoeopathy.

I hope I would be abe to teach you at least the basics of Homoeopathy, provided u have an open mind, which I suspect. But lewt's give it a try. I promise I would attract many of anti-homoeopathy guys to this discussion and possibly few of Homoeopaths too. Let's have great going in coming weeks.
I presume that as you are a professional you keep records on your diagnoses, treatments and outcomes. Could you let us have this information?

Thank you.
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Old 17th March 2008, 09:30 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Dr. Nancy Malik View Post
Though it is a big thing to ask, I would like all anti-homoeopathy guys to have open mind while discussing.

I know being open for you is to answer every question of yours, particularly you will ask for proof and evedience for everything, which might not be possible for me. But whatever I have learned from my education (5 1/2 years of bachelor's degree in Homoeopathy) and from my clinical experience of aprrox five years (which is too small as of now) I will try to put it over here.
Hi Dr Malik
It is usually implied that being open minded means that a person is able to change their opinion to comply with the facts. If you are able to show that homeopathy works ie there is conclusive proof that it can cure some disease, we will change our minds and start looking for the mechanism. Can you assure us that if no convincing proof is available you will be open minded enough to throw away your beliefs and look to evidence based medicine to cure your patients?

Originally Posted by Dr. Nancy Malik View Post
Let me outline my discussion. It is not a fixed one but just a guideline. I hope to discuss allopathy at a broader level (as I don;t know much about it). To discuss allopathy I mean comparing it with homoeopathy.
Many homeopaths use the term 'allopathy' in a pejorative sense. Surely there is only medicine that can be proved to cure patients.

Originally Posted by Dr. Nancy Malik View Post
I hope I would be abe to teach you at least the basics of Homoeopathy, provided u have an open mind, which I suspect. But lewt's give it a try. I promise I would attract many of anti-homoeopathy guys to this discussion and possibly few of Homoeopaths too. Let's have great going in coming weeks.
As PixyMisa says, many here know a great deal about a lot of the variants of homeopathy. Perhaps it would be time saving for you to cite your particular version.

In particular:

Do you totally believe in individual diagnosis and prescription?
Do you agree that there are no molecules of the original preparation in prescribed homeopathic preparations?
Do you agree that the generally accepted standard of effectiveness is the double blind randomly controlled placebo clinical trial?
Do you agree that many disease states are self correcting, ie that the patient will get better with no treatment?

Have fun.
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Old 17th March 2008, 09:35 AM   #33
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Quote:
we will change our minds and start looking for the mechanism
The mechanism has been looked for. Nothing there. Let's stop beating around the bush and just say so.
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Old 17th March 2008, 10:41 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Hydrogen Cyanide View Post
Now answer my question on how well homeopathy works for the following two conditions versus modern medicine (antibiotics and vaccines). Please include verifiable documentation, <snip> not century old case studies or anecdotes from some random clinic:
1) syphilis
2) rabies
Hi Dr. Nancy,

Could you address Hydrogen's questions, please? I'd be very interested to hear your opinion. Thanks very much.

(I apologize that I was required by the forum software to snip the PubMed link provided in Hydrogen's original message. I am not allowed to post links yet, even in quoted replies. But you can refer back up the thread to see the original link. Or google PubMed.)

Also, as an aside... how is that you are a doctor with only a bachelor's degree? Or do you have a doctorate in something else? Just curious.

Last edited by PrincessMo; 17th March 2008 at 10:43 AM. Reason: forgot my second question
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Old 17th March 2008, 11:12 AM   #35
Garrette
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As a common lurker in this threads, I have a request for the gallery--something which has been attempted before but rarely achieved.

Let's keep the active participants to a defined few experts such as Rolfe, fls, BSM, and a couple of others. Well-intended posts from non-experts like me and most others here rarely serve their intent well and serve primarily to increase the noise of the thread and provide cover and excuse for those without legitimate argument.

Now I'll bow out and get my popcorn.
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Old 17th March 2008, 11:18 AM   #36
Professor Yaffle
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
As a common lurker in this threads, I have a request for the gallery--something which has been attempted before but rarely achieved.

Let's keep the active participants to a defined few experts such as Rolfe, fls, BSM, and a couple of others. Well-intended posts from non-experts like me and most others here rarely serve their intent well and serve primarily to increase the noise of the thread and provide cover and excuse for those without legitimate argument.

Now I'll bow out and get my popcorn.
Seconded - I'll keep my trap shut too.
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Old 17th March 2008, 11:19 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
In particular:

Do you totally believe in individual diagnosis and prescription?
Do you agree that there are no molecules of the original preparation in prescribed homeopathic preparations?
Do you agree that the generally accepted standard of effectiveness is the double blind randomly controlled placebo clinical trial?
I find that homeopaths dismiss this, I think because they do not understand the nature of a DBRPCT. I would like to change the question to...

Do you agree that substituting a blank sugar pill, unbeknownst to you or your patient, will have an effect on the cure?

Linda
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Old 17th March 2008, 11:26 AM   #38
Dr. Nancy Malik
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Hi Dr Malik
It is usually implied that being open minded means that a person is able to change their opinion to comply with the facts. If you are able to show that homeopathy works ie there is conclusive proof that it can cure some disease, we will change our minds and start looking for the mechanism. Can you assure us that if no convincing proof is available you will be open minded enough to throw away your beliefs and look to evidence based medicine to cure your patients?



Many homeopaths use the term 'allopathy' in a pejorative sense. Surely there is only medicine that can be proved to cure patients.



As PixyMisa says, many here know a great deal about a lot of the variants of homeopathy. Perhaps it would be time saving for you to cite your particular version.

In particular:

Do you totally believe in individual diagnosis and prescription?
Do you agree that there are no molecules of the original preparation in prescribed homeopathic preparations?
Do you agree that the generally accepted standard of effectiveness is the double blind randomly controlled placebo clinical trial?
Do you agree that many disease states are self correcting, ie that the patient will get better with no treatment?

Have fun.
Homoeopathy is an evedince based medicine
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Old 17th March 2008, 02:18 PM   #39
JJM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Nancy Malik View Post
Homoeopathy is an evedince based medicine
Great! Stop arguing and cite the evidence! Help us out, many of us have looked for it and we have been unable to find it.

Last edited by JJM; 17th March 2008 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 17th March 2008, 04:03 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Seconded - I'll keep my trap shut too.
Thirded.
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