WTC7 Revisited

GregoryUrich

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May 16, 2007
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Introduction:

Many have theorized that the fall time of WTC7 can only be explained by controlled demolition. The fall time indicates there was very little resistance to collapse. This analysis looks at some energy issues in that context to try and quantify the resistance.

Method:

My approach was to use the top 47 floors of WTC1 because the mass and column cross sections are known and the floor area and height was roughly equivalent. Dr. Greening has suggested that the mass was much higher (180,000 tonnes; PE = 166 GJ), but I reject this because NCSTAR1-1 gives thinner (2.5 in) normal concrete floors and WTC7 didn't need the strength of the lower half of WTC1 either for gravity or wind. Making a building 80% heavier than necessary would not be economical.

I used a bottom-up collapse. I have used Dr. Frank Legge's fall time adjusted for perpective (based on informal input from Dr. Greg Jenkins) which comes out around 6.4-6.5 seconds and I use 6.5 seconds. This is the fall time from the point the roof started to move, indicating global failure. Obviously there were localized failures prior to that (i.e. the penthouses).

I have used linear scaling of the energy loss based on an input which I adjusted iteratively until the required falltime was achieved. This results in a decreasing rate of accelleration. It could be scaled differently of course but my scaling is roughly in line with the relative strength of the structure. Legge arrived at a constant accelleration but the perpective issues will probably change that conclusion when the details are worked out.

I have estimated the energy required for expulsion of air in the following manner. For each 1m increment from the center, I calculated the mass and required acceleration to move the mass to the perimeter, based on the time for the particular floor to collapse. Then I figured out the final velocities and summed the KEs. This is a lower bound as aperature affects will increase amount of energy required. In WTC1, the aperature is never larger than 38% of the facade area due to the external columns and spandrels. Actually, I only calculated the bounds and used a linear interpolation between the bounds which reduces the total somewhat.

Results:

The total mass of the building is calculated to be 103,000 tonnes (roughly 36% of WTC1) with a total PE of 97 GJ. The resistance energy is calculated to be 14 GJ. The energy required to expel air from the building in a progressive bottom up collapse is 28.6 GJ. If a constant acceleration is assumed (supported by Legge's work), then the energy dissipated by resistance is: 1-(6/6.5)^2 ~ 14.8%.

Spread sheets:

Energy
Air expulsion

Discussion:

The "resistance" energy turns out to be less than the energy for air expulsion in a progressive collapse may indicate that the mass assumptions are incorrect or more likely the the collapse was not entirely "progressive" in terms of one floor at a time. Keep in mind that this is NOT a general energy issue as there was more than sufficient PE to destroy the building. However, even using Dr. Greenings PE there is no energy left for plastic buckling, concrete comminution or adiabatic heating.

Conclusion:

While this does not prove controlled demolition, it does raise the question of how, at the point when the structure could no longer hold up the building (weight slightly greater than strength), the resistance of the structure suddenly became zero. In this context some mechanism of assisted collapse is a reasonable line of inquiry.
 
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Speaking strictly as a layperson, I'd say you need to submit this research to some type of reputable journal or pursue some other avenue of peer review for it to be taken seriously.
 
Speaking strictly as a layperson, I'd say you need to submit this research to some type of reputable journal or pursue some other avenue of peer review for it to be taken seriously.

I view discussing these issues here as part of that process. There are many knowledgeable people here who can help refine this work prior to submission.
 
I view discussing these issues here as part of that process. There are many knowledgeable people here who can help refine this work prior to submission.

Fair enough. But not having read many of your posts before, I'm not entirely sure how readily you would believe what other board members have to say.
 
Gregory:
I think you have a serious issue with the time of collapse. If the structure under the penthouses had already failed down to the lower floors wouldn't that nullify all of your calculations (acceleration of air)? It seems your assumptions are way to much in favor of collapse.

I'll be interested to see what some of the engineers have to say.
 
I haven't read Legge's paper yet. Are his conclusions generally accepted?
 
I haven't read Legge's paper yet. Are his conclusions generally accepted?
The calculation is for the global collapse. I have no problem with that. The issue is if you are dealing with the acceleration of air I believe you need to pay more attention to the events surrounding the local collapses. I think he's assuming too much in favor of the result he desires.

Just my $.02
 
The calculation is for the global collapse. I have no problem with that. The issue is if you are dealing with the acceleration of air I believe you need to pay more attention to the events surrounding the local collapses. I think he's assuming too much in favor of the result he desires.

Just my $.02

Yes I understand what you mean. I thought about that too. Is it suggested that the "inside" of the building collapsed well before the "outer" part of the building? That would make the fall time of 6.5 irrelevant to the collapse of the inside (floors) part. Right (at least in laymam..haha)?
 
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Yes I understand what you mean. I thought about that too. Is it suggested that the "inside" of the building collapsed well before the "outer" part of the building? That would make the fall time of 6.5 irrelevant to the collapse of the inside (floors) part. Right (at least in laymam..haha)?
Essentially yes.

The east and west penthouses were very large structures in of them-self. To suggest that they disappeared into the building with out major internal collapses in my opinion is absurd. I can't see how any calculations that don't include this phase of the collapse could be valid.
 
For some reason, I keep wondering why people would go to so much trouble to cover up the destruction of a building that was so badly damaged it would have had to be destroyed anyway.
 
Essentially yes.

The east and west penthouses were very large structures in of them-self. To suggest that they disappeared into the building with out major internal collapses in my opinion is absurd. I can't see how any calculations that don't include this phase of the collapse could be valid.


But isn't this what truthers say about the Bazant model? So if the Bazant model is a good simplified model, why isn't this one?

Any answer will go straight over my head. Perhaps I should just be a lurker here.:)
 
But isn't this what truthers say about the Bazant model? So if the Bazant model is a good simplified model, why isn't this one?

Any answer will go straight over my head. Perhaps I should just be a lurker here.:)
The issue is with the assumptions. In all models there are unavoidable assumptions made to compensate for the unknown. In the Bazant model the assumptions are all in favor of collapse arrest. This is the way it should be, in other words trying to disprove your own conclusions. In this case the assumptions are in favor of the concussion. Not correct method as far as I can see.
 
The calculation is for the global collapse. I have no problem with that. The issue is if you are dealing with the acceleration of air I believe you need to pay more attention to the events surrounding the local collapses. I think he's assuming too much in favor of the result he desires.

Just my $.02

What result is it that I desire?

If the inner structure failed significantly prior to the fall of the roof line, windows would have been blown out by the air pressure caused by floors falling.
 
What result is it that I desire?

If the inner structure failed significantly prior to the fall of the roof line, windows would have been blown out by the air pressure caused by floors falling.
I think you would be correct except for the fact that the building had large open gashes. This building was in no way air tight when the collapse began.

Hey I know that you don't ignore calculations and good engineering when you write your papers. I think that this paper will end up being revised and the results will reflect that. I do believe though at this point there is a bias toward collapse other than gravity. As I said this is my opinion.
 
The issue is with the assumptions. In all models there are unavoidable assumptions made to compensate for the unknown. In the Bazant model the assumptions are all in favor of collapse arrest. This is the way it should be, in other words trying to disprove your own conclusions. In this case the assumptions are in favor of the concussion. Not correct method as far as I can see.

Bazant had a few assumptions in favor of arrest and 9 assumptions in favor of collapse progression.

1. No energy absorbed elastically in upper block
2. Upper block weighed too much
3. No plastic energy during initial fall
4. Spring constant 10x realistic
5. No momentum transfer
6. Load capacity = design load
7. No adiabatic heating
8. No energy to expel air
9. No plastic energy for other damage

It turns out however that even when these factors are considered that collapse does progress. Or should I manipulate the assumptions to get the result I desire?

Even with Dr. Greenings assumptions for mass and PE. It still holds up.
 
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I think you would be correct except for the fact that the building had large open gashes. This building was in no way air tight when the collapse began.

Hey I know that you don't ignore calculations and good engineering when you write your papers. I think that this paper will end up being revised and the results will reflect that. I do believe though at this point there is a bias toward collapse other than gravity. As I said this is my opinion.

We would have seen smoke expelled from windows which were already broken.
 
We would have seen smoke expelled from windows which were already broken.
Where did the penthouses (and everything inside them) go then?

I simply think that their disappearance into the roof line is too great of an event to be ignored. I find it hard to believe you don't seem to think this also.
 
For some reason, I keep wondering why people would go to so much trouble to cover up the destruction of a building that was so badly damaged it would have had to be destroyed anyway.

I have trouble with a convincing motive too. Maybe we are looking a huge design flaw or shoddy construction. However, regardless of design or construction, the structure should give significant resistance.
 
But isn't this what truthers say about the Bazant model? So if the Bazant model is a good simplified model, why isn't this one?

Any answer will go straight over my head. Perhaps I should just be a lurker here.:)

That's all I do when the engineers start talking among themselves. Best to stay out of their way.
 
Where did the penthouses (and everything inside them) go then?

I simply think that their disappearance into the roof line is too great of an event to be ignored. I find it hard to believe you don't seem to think this also.

The trading floor? :)

NIST suggests those events were related to failures lower in the building. If we suppose they were, a number of members and or connections failed. How many members and connections needed to be intact for the building to remain standing? Enough to support the weight anyway.
 
The trading floor? :)

NIST suggests those events were related to failures lower in the building. If we suppose they were, a number of members and or connections failed. How many members and connections needed to be intact for the building to remain standing? Enough to support the weight anyway.
Yes but only enough to hold the wall (or face) that we could see. I think a major issue with analyzing this collapse is the lack of vantage points that it was seen from. We simply don't know what was happening on the other side of the building. Was sections of windows blowing out? I don't know. Did it start to drop before the face we could see?

Simply put I think there are too many variables to assume the collapse time as far as determining the energy used from acceleration of air.
 
From the point of view of questionable circumstances involved in the collapse of WTC 7, there are 3 points which strike many people as odd.

1) Fall time and resistance (which you are covering now)
2) A symmetrical fall straight downwards.
3) The very odd looking resultant pile of rubble.

Concerning #3, there is a good collection of photos, many of which you may not have seen before, available at the following link:

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/index.php?module=photoalbum&PHPWS_Album_op=view&PHPWS_Album_id=11&MMN_position=138:138

I got these photos from a talented archivist who just recently made his collection public.


The 3 points above stand out to many people as "fishy".

Any help our engineers can give to clarify these points would be appreciated.
 
Yes but only enough to hold the wall (or face) that we could see. I think a major issue with analyzing this collapse is the lack of vantage points that it was seen from. We simply don't know what was happening on the other side of the building. Was sections of windows blowing out? I don't know. Did it start to drop before the face we could see?

Simply put I think there are too many variables to assume the collapse time as far as determining the energy used from acceleration of air.

So if the entire inside of the building fell down inside. What potential energy was left to drive out the air?

Do we see a jet of smoke and dust ejecting out of the top of the building where the penthouses were?
 
A forth and final(?) issue would be how the fall seemed to be predicted.

The BBC thing was a bit odd.
 
Gregory, just like the wtc you can find a relation between the collapse energy per floor and the mass per floor in two ways. Look at the acceleration of the drop, assume a "crush down", no pancaking needed and you find immediately the ratio between those values. The other option is to calculate the collapse time as function of the energy to destroy a story and the mass, it seems that this ratio could be fitted using a collapse time of 6.6 seconds. They should be the same of course. An other interesting thing is that if you assume that the collapse is complete (which was the case) there is also a upper value of the collapse time, I remember it was about 7.4 which means that it could never take 10 seconds for example. The drop of the penthouses is not part of the crush-down but part of pre-weakening activities.
 
Where would the dust and smoke eject? At the damaged South side?
That the E Penthouse spent 6 or so seconds collapsing into the building prior to "global collapse" is undeniable.
That the structures previously supporting it must have failed to provoke this collapse is also (to my mind) also undeniable.
Therefore significant (some might say massive) interior damage was occuring for about 6 seconds prior to "global collapse".
That "global collapse" is always taken to mean the total collapse of the main structure - when all we actually see is the collapse of the N+W sides - might be of significance in any analysis you make.
 
Every photo I've seen of the north face of WTC7 (which, granted, aren't many, but they do exist; Aman Zafar's page has a few as well as some other places) had smoke literally pouring from what looked like the entire north facing facade. Video footage as I recall supports that as well; video from later in the day focused on WTC7 shows the smoke billowing from the building on all floors that are visible. That would seem to suggest that numerous windows were broken out on the north face and were obscured by the smoke in addition to the giant gashes in the facade of the building. When the penthouses fell in, the smoke and dust from debris already had a ready egress; it didn't need to billow largely from the top of the building, as it had the broken windows and huge gashes on the north face to exit from. I'd be interested in trying to note if there was a momentary increase in the smoke billowing from the building immediately subsequent to those penthouse collapses; I never paid much attention before, but this has piqued my interest. I'm going to try to find some videos in the archive to see if there's any evidence of that.
 
Does anyone have a photo of the supposed 10 story gash in WTC 7, or is the only evidence eyewitness testimony?

I have photos of the walkway going over the street to WTC 7 that has no large WTC 1 debris on it at all (in the album mentioned a few posts ago). I also have a photo of the southwest corner (taken from the northwest so you can only see the west facade) that does not show a gash.

This leaves only a small space along the south face, on the west side, for the gash to occur. I am not seeing any signs of large debris making it over the street along the south facade of WTC 7.
 
Big giant holes, broken windows. Let me see; closing the car door against air resistance with closed window, is more than with open windows. WTC7, open windows.

Major portions of WTC7 had fallen internally, and the unique design of WTC7 makes an amateur approach quite laughable.

The major smoking gun to find a no evidence truther is when they bring up WTC7. It means you have found someone with zero evidence just like the rest of 9/11 truth.
 
I have trouble with a convincing motive too. Maybe we are looking a huge design flaw or shoddy construction.

I'm voting huge design flaw...although it was really a systemic problem. Building codes had become too lax in New York, from what I've heard of more qualified people.

However, regardless of design or construction, the structure should give significant resistance.

It did. One of the tallest buildings in the world FELL ON IT. Not the entire mass, of course, but still...the fact that it didn't immediately collapse is testament to its significant resistance.
 
A forth and final(?) issue would be how the fall seemed to be predicted.

The BBC thing was a bit odd.

Not really. There have been many instances of a news organization jumping the gun and reporting something that was likely to happen but had not happened yet, or in fact never happened at all. Ever seen the "Dewey Defeats Truman" headlines? How about the network news anchor who reported James Brady dead after the Reagan shooting in 1981? Brady STILL hasn't died.

How about the reports on 9/11 that the State Department had been bombed? Do you think someone was SUPPOSED to bomb it, but forgot?
 
Does anyone have a photo of the supposed 10 story gash in WTC 7, or is the only evidence eyewitness testimony?

I have photos of the walkway going over the street to WTC 7 that has no large WTC 1 debris on it at all (in the album mentioned a few posts ago). I also have a photo of the southwest corner (taken from the northwest so you can only see the west facade) that does not show a gash.

This leaves only a small space along the south face, on the west side, for the gash to occur. I am not seeing any signs of large debris making it over the street along the south facade of WTC 7.


[C3PO]

Funny, the damage doesn't look that bad from here...

[/C3PO]
 
Possibly because NIST keeps promising it and keeps pushing the release date back.

I know I'm impatient for it and getting more and more irritated the longer it takes. But that's me personally.
 
I used a bottom-up collapse.

I can't say I know much detail about this topic, but doesn't using a bottom-up collapse model presuppose the conclusion you are reaching? That is, by saying the collapse is bottom-up, aren't you already setting the conditions for a controlled demolition?

Then again, maybe my head is bottom-up. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
So if the entire inside of the building fell down inside. What potential energy was left to drive out the air?

Do we see a jet of smoke and dust ejecting out of the top of the building where the penthouses were?
If the whole building did collapse like that the air would stay where it is and the exterior walls would fall past it.:eek:

This is exactly what I'm referring too. I believe that with out pressurizing the air or having to move large volumes of air at great velocities the energy required would be quite low. Your calculations appear to be worst case (or best depending on how you look at it).

Now I admit I don't know exactly how to do the calculations to support my case but I do understand the principles and I believe my logic is sound. I do however encourage (and quite frankly hope) any of the resident engineers to point me in the correct direction if my thinking is in error.
 
I can't say I know much detail about this topic, but doesn't using a bottom-up collapse model presuppose the conclusion you are reaching? That is, by saying the collapse is bottom-up, aren't you already setting the conditions for a controlled demolition?

Then again, maybe my head is bottom-up. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I use bottom-up because that's what is looks like. We know it wasn't top down. Anyway bottom up dissipates the least amount of energy and has the most energy available early in the collapse. If I was suggesting bottom-up for WTC1, you would have a valid point.
 
Possibly because NIST keeps promising it and keeps pushing the release date back.

I know I'm impatient for it and getting more and more irritated the longer it takes. But that's me personally.

I blame that on the internet generation.

Nobody waits anymore. The concept of "in due time" seems to be disappearing. ;)
 
If the whole building did collapse like that the air would stay where it is and the exterior walls would fall past it.:eek:

This is exactly what I'm referring too. I believe that with out pressurizing the air or having to move large volumes of air at great velocities the energy required would be quite low. Your calculations appear to be worst case (or best depending on how you look at it).

Now I admit I don't know exactly how to do the calculations to support my case but I do understand the principles and I believe my logic is sound. I do however encourage (and quite frankly hope) any of the resident engineers to point me in the correct direction if my thinking is in error.

I'm pretty sure you can see the roof in one of the collapse videos so at least some air would be forced out of the holes where the penthouses were. My point is and has been that it is not realistic to assume that there was significant collapse inside the building until the roof moved.

Also large volumes of air were moved as indicated by the the huge dust clouds spreading out from the bottom of the building.
 
I'm voting huge design flaw...although it was really a systemic problem. Building codes had become too lax in New York, from what I've heard of more qualified people.

It did. One of the tallest buildings in the world FELL ON IT. Not the entire mass, of course, but still...the fact that it didn't immediately collapse is testament to its significant resistance.

Significant resistance during the collapse. The building could and did hold itself up for quite a while after being damaged.
 

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