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WTC7 Revisited

GregoryUrich

Graduate Poster
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
1,316
Introduction:

Many have theorized that the fall time of WTC7 can only be explained by controlled demolition. The fall time indicates there was very little resistance to collapse. This analysis looks at some energy issues in that context to try and quantify the resistance.

Method:

My approach was to use the top 47 floors of WTC1 because the mass and column cross sections are known and the floor area and height was roughly equivalent. Dr. Greening has suggested that the mass was much higher (180,000 tonnes; PE = 166 GJ), but I reject this because NCSTAR1-1 gives thinner (2.5 in) normal concrete floors and WTC7 didn't need the strength of the lower half of WTC1 either for gravity or wind. Making a building 80% heavier than necessary would not be economical.

I used a bottom-up collapse. I have used Dr. Frank Legge's fall time adjusted for perpective (based on informal input from Dr. Greg Jenkins) which comes out around 6.4-6.5 seconds and I use 6.5 seconds. This is the fall time from the point the roof started to move, indicating global failure. Obviously there were localized failures prior to that (i.e. the penthouses).

I have used linear scaling of the energy loss based on an input which I adjusted iteratively until the required falltime was achieved. This results in a decreasing rate of accelleration. It could be scaled differently of course but my scaling is roughly in line with the relative strength of the structure. Legge arrived at a constant accelleration but the perpective issues will probably change that conclusion when the details are worked out.

I have estimated the energy required for expulsion of air in the following manner. For each 1m increment from the center, I calculated the mass and required acceleration to move the mass to the perimeter, based on the time for the particular floor to collapse. Then I figured out the final velocities and summed the KEs. This is a lower bound as aperature affects will increase amount of energy required. In WTC1, the aperature is never larger than 38% of the facade area due to the external columns and spandrels. Actually, I only calculated the bounds and used a linear interpolation between the bounds which reduces the total somewhat.

Results:

The total mass of the building is calculated to be 103,000 tonnes (roughly 36% of WTC1) with a total PE of 97 GJ. The resistance energy is calculated to be 14 GJ. The energy required to expel air from the building in a progressive bottom up collapse is 28.6 GJ. If a constant acceleration is assumed (supported by Legge's work), then the energy dissipated by resistance is: 1-(6/6.5)^2 ~ 14.8%.

Spread sheets:

Energy
Air expulsion

Discussion:

The "resistance" energy turns out to be less than the energy for air expulsion in a progressive collapse may indicate that the mass assumptions are incorrect or more likely the the collapse was not entirely "progressive" in terms of one floor at a time. Keep in mind that this is NOT a general energy issue as there was more than sufficient PE to destroy the building. However, even using Dr. Greenings PE there is no energy left for plastic buckling, concrete comminution or adiabatic heating.

Conclusion:

While this does not prove controlled demolition, it does raise the question of how, at the point when the structure could no longer hold up the building (weight slightly greater than strength), the resistance of the structure suddenly became zero. In this context some mechanism of assisted collapse is a reasonable line of inquiry.
 
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Speaking strictly as a layperson, I'd say you need to submit this research to some type of reputable journal or pursue some other avenue of peer review for it to be taken seriously.
 
Speaking strictly as a layperson, I'd say you need to submit this research to some type of reputable journal or pursue some other avenue of peer review for it to be taken seriously.

I view discussing these issues here as part of that process. There are many knowledgeable people here who can help refine this work prior to submission.
 
I view discussing these issues here as part of that process. There are many knowledgeable people here who can help refine this work prior to submission.

Fair enough. But not having read many of your posts before, I'm not entirely sure how readily you would believe what other board members have to say.
 
Gregory:
I think you have a serious issue with the time of collapse. If the structure under the penthouses had already failed down to the lower floors wouldn't that nullify all of your calculations (acceleration of air)? It seems your assumptions are way to much in favor of collapse.

I'll be interested to see what some of the engineers have to say.
 
I haven't read Legge's paper yet. Are his conclusions generally accepted?
 
I haven't read Legge's paper yet. Are his conclusions generally accepted?
The calculation is for the global collapse. I have no problem with that. The issue is if you are dealing with the acceleration of air I believe you need to pay more attention to the events surrounding the local collapses. I think he's assuming too much in favor of the result he desires.

Just my $.02
 
The calculation is for the global collapse. I have no problem with that. The issue is if you are dealing with the acceleration of air I believe you need to pay more attention to the events surrounding the local collapses. I think he's assuming too much in favor of the result he desires.

Just my $.02

Yes I understand what you mean. I thought about that too. Is it suggested that the "inside" of the building collapsed well before the "outer" part of the building? That would make the fall time of 6.5 irrelevant to the collapse of the inside (floors) part. Right (at least in laymam..haha)?
 
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Yes I understand what you mean. I thought about that too. Is it suggested that the "inside" of the building collapsed well before the "outer" part of the building? That would make the fall time of 6.5 irrelevant to the collapse of the inside (floors) part. Right (at least in laymam..haha)?
Essentially yes.

The east and west penthouses were very large structures in of them-self. To suggest that they disappeared into the building with out major internal collapses in my opinion is absurd. I can't see how any calculations that don't include this phase of the collapse could be valid.
 
For some reason, I keep wondering why people would go to so much trouble to cover up the destruction of a building that was so badly damaged it would have had to be destroyed anyway.
 
Essentially yes.

The east and west penthouses were very large structures in of them-self. To suggest that they disappeared into the building with out major internal collapses in my opinion is absurd. I can't see how any calculations that don't include this phase of the collapse could be valid.


But isn't this what truthers say about the Bazant model? So if the Bazant model is a good simplified model, why isn't this one?

Any answer will go straight over my head. Perhaps I should just be a lurker here.:)
 
But isn't this what truthers say about the Bazant model? So if the Bazant model is a good simplified model, why isn't this one?

Any answer will go straight over my head. Perhaps I should just be a lurker here.:)
The issue is with the assumptions. In all models there are unavoidable assumptions made to compensate for the unknown. In the Bazant model the assumptions are all in favor of collapse arrest. This is the way it should be, in other words trying to disprove your own conclusions. In this case the assumptions are in favor of the concussion. Not correct method as far as I can see.
 
The calculation is for the global collapse. I have no problem with that. The issue is if you are dealing with the acceleration of air I believe you need to pay more attention to the events surrounding the local collapses. I think he's assuming too much in favor of the result he desires.

Just my $.02

What result is it that I desire?

If the inner structure failed significantly prior to the fall of the roof line, windows would have been blown out by the air pressure caused by floors falling.
 
What result is it that I desire?

If the inner structure failed significantly prior to the fall of the roof line, windows would have been blown out by the air pressure caused by floors falling.
I think you would be correct except for the fact that the building had large open gashes. This building was in no way air tight when the collapse began.

Hey I know that you don't ignore calculations and good engineering when you write your papers. I think that this paper will end up being revised and the results will reflect that. I do believe though at this point there is a bias toward collapse other than gravity. As I said this is my opinion.
 
The issue is with the assumptions. In all models there are unavoidable assumptions made to compensate for the unknown. In the Bazant model the assumptions are all in favor of collapse arrest. This is the way it should be, in other words trying to disprove your own conclusions. In this case the assumptions are in favor of the concussion. Not correct method as far as I can see.

Bazant had a few assumptions in favor of arrest and 9 assumptions in favor of collapse progression.

1. No energy absorbed elastically in upper block
2. Upper block weighed too much
3. No plastic energy during initial fall
4. Spring constant 10x realistic
5. No momentum transfer
6. Load capacity = design load
7. No adiabatic heating
8. No energy to expel air
9. No plastic energy for other damage

It turns out however that even when these factors are considered that collapse does progress. Or should I manipulate the assumptions to get the result I desire?

Even with Dr. Greenings assumptions for mass and PE. It still holds up.
 
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I think you would be correct except for the fact that the building had large open gashes. This building was in no way air tight when the collapse began.

Hey I know that you don't ignore calculations and good engineering when you write your papers. I think that this paper will end up being revised and the results will reflect that. I do believe though at this point there is a bias toward collapse other than gravity. As I said this is my opinion.

We would have seen smoke expelled from windows which were already broken.
 
We would have seen smoke expelled from windows which were already broken.
Where did the penthouses (and everything inside them) go then?

I simply think that their disappearance into the roof line is too great of an event to be ignored. I find it hard to believe you don't seem to think this also.
 
For some reason, I keep wondering why people would go to so much trouble to cover up the destruction of a building that was so badly damaged it would have had to be destroyed anyway.

I have trouble with a convincing motive too. Maybe we are looking a huge design flaw or shoddy construction. However, regardless of design or construction, the structure should give significant resistance.
 
But isn't this what truthers say about the Bazant model? So if the Bazant model is a good simplified model, why isn't this one?

Any answer will go straight over my head. Perhaps I should just be a lurker here.:)

That's all I do when the engineers start talking among themselves. Best to stay out of their way.
 
Where did the penthouses (and everything inside them) go then?

I simply think that their disappearance into the roof line is too great of an event to be ignored. I find it hard to believe you don't seem to think this also.

The trading floor? :)

NIST suggests those events were related to failures lower in the building. If we suppose they were, a number of members and or connections failed. How many members and connections needed to be intact for the building to remain standing? Enough to support the weight anyway.
 

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