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Old 15th April 2008, 07:44 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
A program like Google sky, which should include up to date maps made from publicly funded satellite, and ground based, radio and x-ray sources, is long overdue.

Astrometry data is essential, so has it been hijacked by NASA and JPL, whose joint purpose has itself been hijacked by defense, which has been hijacked by hijackers who run government, who employ hijackers to hijack hard evidence and true science.

They try to sell their version back to the public in books and publications with Saganesque data about cannibal galaxies, and wanna tell you, “…well there was this Big Bang,” there was no BB, man is gonna plunge back into the age of ignorance while it remains the province of the select few, with the right security clearance, to get an education.

Previous ages of ignorance produced The Masons, since the powers wanted skilled people around to build their castles and mausoleums, without their people getting smart, so they closed the schools and made education the province of the rich.

With good sky maps available, that have photographs and catalogues of deep fields, and astrometry and radio locating and red shift data, it does not take long to figure it all out.
Perhaps this thread should be moved to the conspiracy theory section? With MT’s recent posts, it would certainly seem more applicable there.
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Old 15th April 2008, 08:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by shadron View Post
Well, I don't really feel I need to criticize, but I will point out that this sounds a lot like a case of an Astronomy wannabe that failed, possible for lack of math background. The attitude is right - blame it on someone else, preferably a nameless someone else so it cannot argue with him. This needs to be sent to the CT forum.
Hmmm - sounded to me like he's pissed off he can't get a security clearance.

I mean, astronomy isn't only done by the US government.
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Old 15th April 2008, 09:01 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Hmmm - sounded to me like he's pissed off he can't get a security clearance.

I mean, astronomy isn't only done by the US government.
.

Worse, for him, all the data - including the raw data - taken by missions such as the HST must be publicly released, once the proprietary period is over (and for many of the most exciting sets of observations, there is no proprietary period).

Most of the big surveys, like SDSS, 2dF, COSMOS, and GOODS also have similar policies - immediate release of all data, which data may come from facilities owned by entities other than US government agencies ...
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Old 15th April 2008, 05:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
.

Worse, for him, all the data - including the raw data - taken by missions such as the HST must be publicly released, once the proprietary period is over (and for many of the most exciting sets of observations, there is no proprietary period).

Most of the big surveys, like SDSS, 2dF, COSMOS, and GOODS also have similar policies - immediate release of all data, which data may come from facilities owned by entities other than US government agencies ...
Well, actually, I know for certain that SDSS has a one year proprietary period, DR7 has just been released to the SDSS community, but is password protected, and can only be used in papers written by people working at SDSS member institutes. It will become generally available in a little under a year.

Almost all observations have a proprietary period.
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Old 15th April 2008, 06:27 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Well, actually, I know for certain that SDSS has a one year proprietary period, DR7 has just been released to the SDSS community, but is password protected, and can only be used in papers written by people working at SDSS member institutes. It will become generally available in a little under a year.

Almost all observations have a proprietary period.
.
Oops!

Not much point checking 2dF (the projects released their final reports, etc, some time ago now); what about GOODS and COSMOS? Hmm ... easy enough to find out ... and, as far as I know, both HDFs and the HUDF had no proprietary period (but am I mis-remembering?).

Agreed that most proposal-based observations, using 'large agency' facilities (such as the HST) have proprietary periods (various TOO observations are exempt, such as those of GRBs), but isn't the point of many multi-band, multi-facility, multi-agency surveys to release the data ASAP?
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Old 15th April 2008, 06:50 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by DeiRenDopa View Post
.
Oops!

Not much point checking 2dF (the projects released their final reports, etc, some time ago now); what about GOODS and COSMOS? Hmm ... easy enough to find out ... and, as far as I know, both HDFs and the HUDF had no proprietary period (but am I mis-remembering?).

Agreed that most proposal-based observations, using 'large agency' facilities (such as the HST) have proprietary periods (various TOO observations are exempt, such as those of GRBs), but isn't the point of many multi-band, multi-facility, multi-agency surveys to release the data ASAP?
Depends on how they're organised. SDSS (I believe) was set up mostly on contributions from member institutes, so gives them the one year proprietary period. No idea about GOODS or COSMOS.
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Old 15th April 2008, 07:17 PM   #47
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GOODS' Data Policy:
Quote:
In the spirit of all Legacy Programs, data obtained with ESO facilities in direct support of the GOODS project will be immediately made public worldwide (see open letter by the ESO Director General). Reduced imaging data and source catalogs prepared by the EIS Team will be released by ESO within a few months from the conclusion of each observing run. Imaging and spectroscopic data obtained with ESO telescopes by proprietary programmes in the Chandra Deep Field South will also become public worldwide via the ESO Science Archive before the release of the SIRTF/GOODS data, or after the expiration of the one year proprietary period.
.

COSMOS' Archive:
Quote:
Data obtained as part of the COSMOS Project can be downloaded from one of several archives:

1. Public COSMOS Archive {link}
This archive is maintained by IRSA {link} at IPAC {link}. All COSMOS data (images and catalogs) that has been publicly released are available through this interface.
2. Private (team-only) COSMOS Archive {link}
Also maintained by IRSA {link}, this archive includes all data obtained by the project that is available to the team. This site is password-protected. Data moves from this archive to the public archive according to a data policy, usually one year after the data was obtained.
3. MAST at STScI {link}
The HST data sets (ACS, WFPC2, and NICMOS) can be obtained from this archive in their raw and on-the-fly reduced form. These data have no proprietary period and can be downloaded as soon as they have been processed from the telescope. In addition, MAST is providing an archive of COSMOS High-Level Science Products {link} from HST and GALEX. These are the same processed data products available from the COSMOS archive at IRSA, but organized a bit differently.
.
So, some stuff has no proprietary period, other stuff does.

Another example of a widely used survey is FIRST ("Faint Images of the Radio Sky at Twenty-cm"):
Quote:
Both the images {link} and the catalogs {link} constructed from the FIRST observations are being made available to the astronomical community as soon as sufficient quality-control tests have been completed. In addition, the raw visibility data are available from NRAO {link} as soon as the observations have been taken, so radio astronomers can make maps of particular fields of interest before our final images are available.
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Old 15th April 2008, 07:47 PM   #48
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Cool, thanks DeiRen.
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Old 16th April 2008, 12:42 AM   #49
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Old 16th April 2008, 01:56 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Sure they do ...Look on deep field images for rare shots of spidery looking juvenile galaxies drifting away from parent bodies, see the Andromeda Galaxy pairing called variously M31 and M32, and see the small bright, tightly knit cluster like object as an embryo galaxy, maybe Omega Centauri is an embryo galaxy of the Milky Way, possibly both it and M31 will expand to form major galaxies.

What is the average age of the stars in Omega Centauri and how does it compare to the average age of the stars in a galaxy such the Milky Way? How many new stars are forming in Omega Centauri and how does that number compare to the rate of star formation in a galaxy such as the Milky Way? Once you have answered these questions, how likely is it that globular clusters are juvenile galaxies?
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Old 16th April 2008, 02:58 AM   #51
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Can anyone translate this? I have no idea what Martin Timothy is claiming and I have read it twice. Which I regret.
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Old 16th April 2008, 07:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by martu View Post
Can anyone translate this? I have no idea what Martin Timothy is claiming and I have read it twice. Which I regret.
Who cares? Astronomy by Microsoft Picture Manager? I didn't expect anything but BS.

However, one of the reasons I read threads like this is that others (wollery, DeiRenDopa, Hokulele) weigh in with real educational information. So the thread is not a total waste.
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Old 16th April 2008, 12:39 PM   #53
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Maybe Omega Centauri is an embryo galaxy of the Milky Way, possibly both it and M31 will expand to form major galaxies.

“…How likely is it that globular clusters are juvenile galaxies?” Probably unlikely, in this model they are formed in emission nebulae.

In the case of the Andromeda Galaxy which is the closest galaxy, M31 would have been born with it, and will drift away and expand firstly to become a low surface brightness galaxy that will eventually flatten into a disc, when it starts to rotate and spiral arms form, eventually it ignites to become an active galaxy. In the next phase the compressed matter in the spiral arms expands in emission nebulae, to form stars and globular clusters that drift to stations above and below the disc, as the spiral evolves into an ellipse.

The globular clusters form a placenta that effectively shields the galaxy from radiation, and a buffer zone against collisions and impacts with other galaxies.

The nucleus of the galaxy expands and gathers all the dust and debris, then contracts, the material it has collected goes into the torus, the donut of swirling dust and shattered stars that insulates the central surrounds of the black hole, or cluster of BH’s at the center of the galaxy. Centaurus A an exploding galaxy in that constellation, thought to be about twenty six light years away is presently undergoing that process.

Astrometry data is essential, so has it been hijacked by NASA and JPL, with good sky maps available, that have photographs and catalogues of deep fields, and astrometry and radio locating and red shift data, it does not take long to figure it all out.

“…Raw data taken by missions such as the HST must be publicly released, once the proprietary period is over SDSS, 2dF, COSMOS, and GOODS have similar policies.”

The data that is released is most often too raw, with dazzling columns of figures and seemingly contradictory terms, it is seldom in a form that can be used for home astrometry, the photographs and charts they reproduce never have grid markers, so scale remains a mystery.

Similarly published data for the distance to NGC 253 goes from nine million LY up to just under thirteen million LY, surely radio data from Sagittarius A*, recognized as the heart of the MW galaxy, need only be analyzed with a radio spectrometer to find red shift, then go on from there.

Then since NGC 253 is two hundred and sixty times further away, locate the RS for that object, or multiply 24250, the latest estimate of the distance to A* by 260, and get 6,305 000 LY, less than half the top estimate given by Wikipedia. Use that figure to bring the distant side on galaxy on the same plate as NGC 253, in from 1350 million LY, to 945.75 million LY’s.

All that uncertainty disappears when correct clearly presented data is available, which is not the case at this time.

Last edited by Martin Timothy; 16th April 2008 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 16th April 2008, 12:57 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Maybe Omega Centauri is an embryo galaxy of the Milky Way, possibly both it and M31 will expand to form major galaxies. “…How likely is it that globular clusters are juvenile galaxies?” Probably unlikely, they are formed in the white of the egg if you will, when the galaxy formed.
White of egg = big cloud of hydrogen gas.

Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
In the case of the Andromeda Galaxy which is the closest galaxy, M31 would have been born with it, and will drift away and expand firstly to become a low surface brightness galaxy that will eventually flatten into a disc, when it starts to rotate and spiral arms form, eventually it ignites to become an active galaxy. The next phase is, all the compressed matter in the spiral arms expands in emission nebulae to form stars that drift to stations above and below the disc, as the spiral evolves into an ellipse.
That is correct.

Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
The globular clusters form a placenta that effectively shields the galaxy from radiation, and a buffer zone against collisions and impacts with other galaxies.
No - they are neither a placenta nor do they protect against radiation or collisions. Perhaps The Cookbook of Galactic Cannibalism will give you a clue.

Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
The nucleus of the galaxy expands and gathers all the dust and debris, then contracts, the material it has collected goes into the torus, the donut of swirling dust and shattered stars that insulates the central surrounds of the black hole, or cluster of BH’s at the center of the galaxy. Centaurus A is an exploding galaxy in that constellation, thought to be about twenty six light years away is presently undergoing that process.
26 light years? That is wrong.

Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Astrometry data is essential, so has it been hijacked by NASA and JPL, with good sky maps available, that have photographs and catalogues of deep fields, and astrometry and radio locating and red shift data, it does not take long to figure it all out.

“…Raw data taken by missions such as the HST must be publicly released, once the proprietary period is over SDSS, 2dF, COSMOS, and GOODS have similar policies.”
Read the posts!

Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
The data that is released is most often too raw, with dazzling columns of figures and seemingly contradictory terms, it is seldom in a form that can be used for home astrometry, since the photographs and charts they reproduce never have grid markers, so scale remains a mystery.
So you want massaged data that hides the details?

Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Similarly published data for the distance to NGC 253 goes from nine million LY up to just under thirteen million LY, surely radio data from Sagittarius A*, recognized as the heart of the MW galaxy, need only be analyzed with a radio spectrometer to find red shift, then go on from there.
10% error is a good measurement in astonomy. If you do not know this then you are ignorant of astronomy which this thread obviously shows.

Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Then since NGC 253 is two hundred and sixty times further away, locate the RS for that object, or multiply 24250, the latest estimate of the distance to A* by 260, and get 6,305 000 LY, less than half the top estimate given by Wikipedia. Use that figure to bring the distant side on galaxy on the same plate as NGC 253, in from 1350 million LY, to 945.75 million LY’s.

All that uncertainty disappears when correct clearly presented data is available, which is not the case at this time.
Please quote your proof that all galaxies are the same size (a Nobel prize awaits you!).

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Old 16th April 2008, 04:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
The globular clusters form a placenta that effectively shields the galaxy from radiation, and a buffer zone against collisions and impacts with other galaxies.
I'm really curious to know how you think they do that?

Quote:
Centaurus A an exploding galaxy in that constellation, thought to be about twenty six light years away is presently undergoing that process.
I'm guessing you're missing a 'million' or something in there. 26 ly is only about 1/100 of the distance to the centre of the Milky Way from here.

Quote:
Astrometry data is essential, so has it been hijacked by NASA and JPL, with good sky maps available, that have photographs and catalogues of deep fields, and astrometry and radio locating and red shift data, it does not take long to figure it all out.
How can NASA hijack its own data?

Quote:
The data that is released is most often too raw, with dazzling columns of figures and seemingly contradictory terms, it is seldom in a form that can be used for home astrometry, the photographs and charts they reproduce never have grid markers, so scale remains a mystery.
So not only are you complaining that NASA and the like who pay for these things in the first place have the almighty cheek to want to look at their results before anyone else, you're complaining that when it is released and available to you for free its not in exactly the form you yourself want it?
You want the data to be released free of charge, immediately and yet also sorted? And you think this is reasonable?

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Old 16th April 2008, 06:36 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Maybe Omega Centauri is an embryo galaxy of the Milky Way, possibly both it and M31 will expand to form major galaxies.
No.

Quote:
“…How likely is it that globular clusters are juvenile galaxies?” Probably unlikely, in this model they are formed in emission nebulae.
No.

Quote:
In the case of the Andromeda Galaxy which is the closest galaxy, M31 would have been born with it, and will drift away and expand firstly to become a low surface brightness galaxy that will eventually flatten into a disc, when it starts to rotate and spiral arms form, eventually it ignites to become an active galaxy. In the next phase the compressed matter in the spiral arms expands in emission nebulae, to form stars and globular clusters that drift to stations above and below the disc, as the spiral evolves into an ellipse.
Possibly, but not in the sense that you mean born or evolve.

Quote:
The globular clusters form a placenta that effectively shields the galaxy from radiation, and a buffer zone against collisions and impacts with other galaxies.
No.

Quote:
The nucleus of the galaxy expands and gathers all the dust and debris, then contracts, the material it has collected goes into the torus, the donut of swirling dust and shattered stars that insulates the central surrounds of the black hole, or cluster of BH’s at the center of the galaxy. Centaurus A an exploding galaxy in that constellation, thought to be about twenty six light years away is presently undergoing that process.
Sort of.

Quote:
Astrometry data is essential, so has it been hijacked by NASA and JPL,
No, it hasn't.

Quote:
with good sky maps available, that have photographs and catalogues of deep fields, and astrometry and radio locating and red shift data, it does not take long to figure it all out.
Given that you "figure it out" using completely inadequate tools, faulty logic and poor maths, I'm not surprised it doesn't take long. I could come to all sorts of stupid conclusions in no time at all if I decided to analyse complex data with ridiculously inadequate tools, and didn't bother to apply rigorous logic and maths.

Quote:
“…Raw data taken by missions such as the HST must be publicly released, once the proprietary period is over SDSS, 2dF, COSMOS, and GOODS have similar policies.”

The data that is released is most often too raw, with dazzling columns of figures and seemingly contradictory terms, it is seldom in a form that can be used for home astrometry,
That's because the raw data comes that way, it's what we astronomers have to deal with, and we have the computing tools to deal with it. How do you think the finished images appear? Magic?

Quote:
the photographs and charts they reproduce never have grid markers, so scale remains a mystery.
Not true, many charts and images have scale markers. Seriously, go take a survey of papers on AstroPh, I guarantee there'll be plenty of images with scale markings.

Quote:
Similarly published data for the distance to NGC 253 goes from nine million LY up to just under thirteen million LY, surely radio data from Sagittarius A*, recognized as the heart of the MW galaxy, need only be analyzed with a radio spectrometer to find red shift, then go on from there.
The redshift of Sag A* cannot be used as a comparison to the redshift of an external galaxy. If you don't understand why not then you really need to take a course in very basic astronomy.

Quote:
Then since NGC 253 is two hundred and sixty times further away, locate the RS for that object, or multiply 24250, the latest estimate of the distance to A* by 260, and get 6,305 000 LY, less than half the top estimate given by Wikipedia. Use that figure to bring the distant side on galaxy on the same plate as NGC 253, in from 1350 million LY, to 945.75 million LY’s.
Spurious logic and math.

Quote:
All that uncertainty disappears when correct clearly presented data is available, which is not the case at this time.
Nope. Correct, clearly presented data is available, you just wouldn't know it if it smacked you on the nose.
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Old 16th April 2008, 07:53 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Nope. Correct, clearly presented data is available, you just wouldn't know it if it smacked you on the nose.

I suppose he could use a globular cluster to form a placental buffer zone against collisions and impacts with reality.
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Old 20th April 2008, 05:49 AM   #58
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"All that uncertainty disappears when correct clearly presented data is available, which is not the case at this time."



http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080420.html

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Old 21st April 2008, 09:05 PM   #59
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The APOD photograph is of the chance alignment of two galaxies, Saganists and Gee Whizzers have declared there is a galactic collision underway, nowhere is there any evidence of that, see the lack of distortion in the spiral arms of both galaxies.

Had there been a collision underway a considerable degree of distortion would be evident, no distortion... no collision.

Download from APOD > Microsoft Picture Manager > Edit > Crop…

See the smaller of the two galaxies has a semi diameter of 177 pixels measured from the brightest part of the central region, to clear space above the active part of the disc, whereas it is 437 pixels to clear space below the brightest part of the center of the larger galaxy at right, see also the distant galaxy at right that subtends an angle of forty pixels on the same frame, giving it a semi diameter of twenty pixels. Check Redshift data to find a similar proportion in the red shift of each object, then deduce distance.

For the fact that both galaxies are close together and look similar, is that they are probably identical twin galaxies spawned of the same galactic egg, that are now drifting apart.

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Old 21st April 2008, 11:03 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
The APOD photograph is of the chance alignment of two galaxies, Saganists and Gee Whizzers have declared there is a galactic collision underway, nowhere is there any evidence of that, see the lack of distortion in the spiral arms of both galaxies.

Had there been a collision underway a considerable degree of distortion would be evident, no distortion... no collision.

Download from APOD > Microsoft Picture Manager > Edit > Crop…

See the smaller of the two galaxies has a semi diameter of 177 pixels measured from the brightest part of the central region, to clear space above the active part of the disc, whereas it is 437 pixels to clear space below the brightest part of the center of the larger galaxy at right, see also the distant galaxy at right that subtends an angle of forty pixels on the same frame, giving it a semi diameter of twenty pixels. Check Redshift data to find a similar proportion in the red shift of each object, then deduce distance.

For the fact that both galaxies are close together and look similar, is that they are probably identical twin galaxies spawned of the same galactic egg, that are now drifting apart.
The red shift of NGC 2207 and IC 2163 is 2741 ± 15 and 2765 ± 20 km/s respectively. They are at the same redshift and the same distance (within the uncertainty).

How big do you think the galactic chicken was that laid the galactic egg?
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Old 21st April 2008, 11:05 PM   #61
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Double post

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Old 22nd April 2008, 07:44 AM   #62
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A collision between galaxies is nothing at all like a collision between cars.

For one thing, galactic collisions take millions of years.

Also, look at the picture. The galaxy on the right appears to have brown streaks across it. This is dust in the spiral arms of the galaxy on the left. It isn't a collision of one galaxy from the left and one from the right. They're orbiting each other.

As for distortions - the galaxy on the right has a huge tidal tail spreading out to the right. This is a distortion due to the gravitational tides of the interaction (a much better word than "collision" to describe what's going on).

If the galaxies were "spawned from the same galactic egg" as you suggest then why are they drifting apart? Does gravity not work in that region of the Universe?

Your assessment is wrong on almost all counts.

No, wait, actually it is wrong on all counts.
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Old 22nd April 2008, 01:22 PM   #63
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Here are the Mice

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080224.html

the Antennae
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060630.html

in Pegasus

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap071124.html

NGC474
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap071008.html

Markarian's Eyes
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070608.html

here are the rest
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/...laxy+collision

They is amakin alot and lots o'baybees.
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Old 23rd April 2008, 04:44 PM   #64
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Martin Timothy,

How old do you think the universe is?
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Old 23rd April 2008, 05:27 PM   #65
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“…Look Ma, theyse makin baybies! …My monitor, my beautiful monitor, washed in coffee …How big do you think the galactic chicken was that laid the galactic egg? …They is amakin alot and lots o'baybees …Here are the mice.”

Go to http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catrathb3.jpg , for dealing with mice at least.

The galactic reproduction principal is not clear, however a truer picture should emerge when reasonable data is presented, devoid of catch phrases such as those above, more attuned to a gaggle of geese or a tribe of chimps, than to social contribution or intellectual debate.

The thread commenced at NGC 253 and was intended to refute the claim that the universe is expanding after the explosion of a primal atom, evidenced by Redshift which Big Bangers say shows the velocity of physical recession, which true science recognizes as an artifact of distance.

This article has demonstrated that distant galaxies show no evidence that they are fall out from an explosion, there is no trail of smoking debris like there was at the WTC on 911, which was from a genuine big bang, nor do they appear to be doing anything except drifting about a bit, until they establish stable orbits with other members in their group.

Simple galaxies like Omega Centauri and M31 expand then start spinning and flatten into discs, during this stage collisions are frequent, that they are not observed so often is because they remain as low surface brightness galaxies, that do not show up at all on most conventional photo’s, their presence was only revealed after large numbers of blue arcs centered on super massive elliptical galaxies turned up on deep field shots, so astronomers started looking for more and found millions, near and far.

During this collision phase if two colliding members are compatible, they combine then rapidly evolve into an active disc as the nascent black holes lurking at the heart of both respond, then combine and reproduce.

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Old 23rd April 2008, 05:39 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Go to http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catrathb3.jpg , for dealing with mice at least.
You do realise this picture still makes absolutely no sense in relation to the topic of this thread?

Quote:
This article has demonstrated that distant galaxies show no evidence that they are fall out from an explosion, there is no trail of smoking debris like there was at the WTC on 911, which was from a genuine big bang, nor do they appear to be doing anything, except drifting about a bit until the establish stable orbits with other members in their group.
CMBR anyone?

Quote:
During this collision phase if two colliding members are compatible, they combine then rapidly evolve into an active disc as the nascent black holes lurking at the heart of both respond, then combine and reproduce.
Compatible?
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Old 23rd April 2008, 06:32 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
...snip

The thread commenced at NGC 253 and was intended to refute the claim that the universe is expanding after the explosion of a primal atom, evidenced by Redshift which they say shows the velocity of physical recession, which true science recognizes as an artifact of distance.

This article has demonstrated that distant galaxies show no evidence that they are fall out from an explosion, there is no trail of smoking debris like there was at the WTC on 911, which was from a genuine big bang, nor do they appear to be doing anything except drifting about a bit, until they establish stable orbits with other members in their group...snip
This has GOT to be a parody, right?
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Old 23rd April 2008, 07:00 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
This has GOT to be a parody, right?
Unfortunately not.
Martin Timothy seems a bit deluded, believing things like
  • Cosmology can be done by editing astronomy pictures in Microsoft Picture Manager.
  • Galaxies are born from "eggs".
  • Galaxies are all the same size.
  • Galaxies colliding should show the same signes as small explosions (WTC).
  • "M32 is likely an embryo galaxy that will expand as a child galaxy of M31".
  • Since astronomy "publicly funded" it needs to come up with exact values: "The fact that there are such wide discrepancies, does further damage to the academic reputation of the scientific community, many of whom are tasked with interpreting data obtained in publicly funded programs."
  • "Astrometry data is essential, so has it been hijacked by NASA and JPL"
So basically someone without much scientific knowledge and a conspiracy theorist.

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Old 23rd April 2008, 07:08 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
The galactic reproduction principal is not clear, however a truer picture should emerge when reasonable data is presented, devoid of catch phrases such as those above, more attuned to a gaggle of geese or a tribe of chimps, than to social contribution or intellectual debate.

The thread commenced at NGC 253 and was intended to refute the claim that the universe is expanding after the explosion of a primal atom, evidenced by Redshift which Big Bangers say shows the velocity of physical recession, which true science recognizes as an artifact of distance.

This article has demonstrated that distant galaxies show no evidence that they are fall out from an explosion, there is no trail of smoking debris like there was at the WTC on 911, which was from a genuine big bang, nor do they appear to be doing anything except drifting about a bit, until they establish stable orbits with other members in their group.
And thus you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the Big Bang theory and cosmology.

Quote:
Simple galaxies like Omega Centauri and M31 expand then start spinning and flatten into discs, during this stage collisions are frequent, that they are not observed so often is because they remain as low surface brightness galaxies, that do not show up at all on most conventional photo’s, their presence was only revealed after large numbers of blue arcs centered on super massive elliptical galaxies turned up on deep field shots, so astronomers started looking for more and found millions, near and far.

During this collision phase if two colliding members are compatible, they combine then rapidly evolve into an active disc as the nascent black holes lurking at the heart of both respond, then combine and reproduce.
Ummmm. Nope.
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Old 23rd April 2008, 07:41 PM   #70
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MT, how old is the universe and why should a scientist say that the primal atom exploded? that is rather old school, you need to brush up old man.


I ask how old for a simple reason some galaxies have been involved in a gravitational dance for millions of years.

How old is the universe?

If you don't have a sense of humor, you haven't got sense.

How do spawning galaxies get the energy to move apart and not just collapse under gravitation?
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Old 23rd April 2008, 09:10 PM   #71
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“…Science is not married to the Big Bang theory …got something that fits the evidence better.”

Look at deep fields obtained in the 1950’s by Hubble and Milt Humason with the two hundred inch Hale telescope at Mount Palomar, clear vision of galaxies extending as far as the eye could see.

Some appeared to exist in a swarm around the sub cluster at the heart of the Virgo cluster of galaxies, that included the massive elliptical, which means shaped between egg shaped and spherical, galaxy M87 that has a jet of material streaming from its core.

Others were in streamers and wisps of galaxies extending outward, until their images on Hubble’s plates were no more than pin pricks. The fact that when the spectra of these galaxies was analyzed it revealed that the absorption lines of all the common elements were shifted toward the red end of the spectrum, the furtherest ones away, attested to by the small width of their image on the photographic plates, all had greater RS than their closer counterparts whose images subtended a greater angle, which is astro talk for image width.

Then see later images obtained with better more sensitive instruments and see the tendrils and filaments of high RS galaxies extend once again to the resolving limit of the telescope, once again the more distant edge on spiral galaxies appear as a central bulge, with two pointy bits extending about twice as far on the same axis, yet these galaxies are vastly more distant than Hubble’s, and yet they are in the same advanced stages of evolution as the MW.

Now in this new millennia space based and adaptive optic instruments have extended the visual limit even further, and still the same clear space and edge on spirals at the visual limit, here RS is approaching twelve which puts their rate of recession well into the supraluminal category, yeah that means faster than the speed of light, yet they are goin’ about their own business, the same as around here.

See the galaxies ever further away in every direction, and see them as neurons in the brain of God, there is no other way to describe it, it is meant in no evangelical sense, it just seems the best way to describe the physical reality.

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Old 23rd April 2008, 09:42 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
“…Science is not married to the Big Bang theory …got something that fits the evidence better.”

Look at deep fields obtained in the 1950’s by Hubble and Milt Humason with the two hundred inch Hale telescope at Mount Palomar, clear vision of galaxies extending as far as the eye could see.

Some appeared to exist in a swarm around the sub cluster at the heart of the Virgo cluster of galaxies, that included the massive elliptical, which means shaped between egg shaped and spherical, galaxy M87 that has a jet of material streaming from its core.

Others were in streamers and wisps of galaxies extending outward, until their images on Hubble’s plates were no more than pin pricks. The fact that when the spectra of these galaxies was analyzed it revealed that the absorption lines of all the common elements were shifted toward the red end of the spectrum, the furtherest ones away, attested to by the small width of their image on the photographic plates, all had greater RS than their closer counterparts whose images subtended a greater angle, which is astro talk for image width.

Then see later images obtained with better more sensitive instruments and see the tendrils and filaments of high RS galaxies extend once again to the resolving limit of the telescope, once again the more distant edge on spiral galaxies appear as a central bulge, with two pointy bits extending about twice as far on the same axis, yet these galaxies are vastly more distant than Hubble’s, and yet they are in the same advanced stages of evolution as the MW.

Now in this new millennia space based and adaptive optic instruments have extended the visual limit even further, and still the same clear space and edge on spirals at the visual limit, here RS is approaching twelve which puts their rate of recession well into the supraluminal category, yeah that means faster than the speed of light, yet they are goin’ about their own business, the same as around here.

See the galaxies ever further away in every direction, and see them as neurons in the brain of God, there is no other way to describe it, it is meant in no evangelical sense, it just seems the best way to describe the physical reality.
That means that God's brain has a big hole in it (WMAP cold spot), maybe a tumor (Sloan Great Wall), is full of empty space and has an average temperature of a few K.
Now I see what you mean - God is dead!
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Old 24th April 2008, 04:39 AM   #73
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I apologise for my behavior yesterday and earlier, my juvenile side got a hold on me.

Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
“…Science is not married to the Big Bang theory …got something that fits the evidence better.”

Look at deep fields obtained in the 1950’s by Hubble and Milt Humason with the two hundred inch Hale telescope at Mount Palomar, clear vision of galaxies extending as far as the eye could see.
And theoreticaly much farther, under current theory the visible universe in much smaller than the part that we can't see. So yes the universe does appear to have a lot of galaxies.
Quote:


Some appeared to exist in a swarm around the sub cluster at the heart of the Virgo cluster of galaxies, that included the massive elliptical, which means shaped between egg shaped and spherical, galaxy M87 that has a jet of material streaming from its core.

Others were in streamers and wisps of galaxies extending outward, until their images on Hubble’s plates were no more than pin pricks. The fact that when the spectra of these galaxies was analyzed it revealed that the absorption lines of all the common elements were shifted toward the red end of the spectrum, the furtherest ones away, attested to by the small width of their image on the photographic plates, all had greater RS than their closer counterparts whose images subtended a greater angle, which is astro talk for image width.
Now that is where you loose me, there are reasons that a galaxy might have a smaller apparent width and be much closer, first off there is the issue of the actual size of a galaxy, not all galaxies are the same size, some are bigger and some are smaller. So it might be incorrect to assume that they are all the same size in their physical dimensions.

Then there are tricks of putting the view at an angles, especialy one that is between edge on and flat face, that will tend to distort the shape of the galaxy and give you a smaller apparent width.

Then when it comes to fainter object, generally then only the brightest stars are seen and that does not indicate the true size of a galaxy but the area where young massive stars are formed.

And then there is the issue of not assuming a correlation between distance and apparent width, that would need to be proved.
Quote:

Then see later images obtained with better more sensitive instruments and see the tendrils and filaments of high RS galaxies extend once again to the resolving limit of the telescope, once again the more distant edge on spiral galaxies appear as a central bulge, with two pointy bits extending about twice as far on the same axis, yet these galaxies are vastly more distant than Hubble’s, and yet they are in the same advanced stages of evolution as the MW.
Not particularly, one can not always assume stage or age from shape.

There are fewer elliptical galaxies the farther away you look, because by current theory they are the result of many galaxies combined with each other.

And i would also assume that the general proportion of elements in the farther ones is going to be different, but there is a host of bugaboos when it comes to measuring the spectrum of the elements at that distance. In that again there will tend to be the the hot young massive stars.
Quote:

Now in this new millennia space based and adaptive optic instruments have extended the visual limit even further, and still the same clear space and edge on spirals at the visual limit, here RS is approaching twelve which puts their rate of recession well into the supraluminal category,
Not really.

But motion of two bodies moving away from each other at 98% (relative motion in opposite directions not consmological expansion) of the speed of light would be superluminal, however, that does not mean either is moving at 196% speed of light.
But i will have to check on the relative motion of the highest z I could be wrong.yeah that means faster than the speed of light, yet they are goin’ about their own business, the same as around here.
Quote:

See the galaxies ever further away in every direction, and see them as neurons in the brain of God, there is no other way to describe it, it is meant in no evangelical sense, it just seems the best way to describe the physical reality.
Well neurons have lipid bilayers, so I am not usre that galaxies do, or that galaxies have calcium channels.


ETA:

Yes the recession velocity is faster than the speed of light, but that does not mean that either object is moving faster than the speed of light.
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Old 27th April 2008, 11:35 PM   #74
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Go here...

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...L_GRAPHIC.html

...for similarities in brain structure and the structure of the known universe.
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Old 28th April 2008, 12:00 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Go here...

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...L_GRAPHIC.html

...for similarities in brain structure and the structure of the known universe.

And this means what?
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Old 28th April 2008, 01:44 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Martin Timothy View Post
Go here...

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...L_GRAPHIC.html

...for similarities in brain structure and the structure of the known universe.
Has this something to do with the topic of this thread which is your ignorance of astronomy?
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Old 1st May 2008, 05:51 AM   #77
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SCCREEEEEEeeeeee bam

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/arc...08/16/image/a/
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Old 6th May 2008, 05:35 AM   #78
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Here is one with a double center, not really yang/yin.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080506.html
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